Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by KED12345, Apr 4, 2013.
I liked both Traviss' and Karen Miller's Ahsoka.
Awesome to see a fan of Karen Miller. I can't understand the negative feedback I've seen about her; those Clone Wars novels were among the best I've ever read in the EU, especially in terms of feeling immersed in the characters.
All discussions always lead back to Ahsoka when we're bored huh? This.
Ahsoka in the Season 5 Finally was the biggest moron I'd ever seen in Star Wars. I think Jar-Jar would have easily thought twice before taking that key card, using it, and looking at how she's being setup deciding to just kept on running. Come one, that should be an 'Epic Fail Meme".
Ahsoka was never one of my favorite TCW characters. I didn't really care for Ahsoka in season 1-3. She grew on me a little bit more in the small appearances in season 4 and with a little help from a member was around then whose opinion I valued
@sacharias who did a great job analyzing Ahsoka's character evolution and showing me where those dots strung together. Then I liked her on and off in season 5.
One of the biggest problems with her is how her character was a yo-yo going from mature and juvenile again from episode to episode/ arc to arc. Still her black and whiteness and just generally being dense. She reminded me alot character-wise of Sailormoon in terms of being a bit overpowered, unintentionally getting the moral high ground alot and yet shes just not the smartest glow stick at the rave. I could argue she's a bumbling hero. She is kinda a Star Warsy take on the magic girl.
I'll have to visit the Traviss and Miller versions of Ahsoka. I kinda think that if she has to appear in Rebels they can build her into a hell of a tragic character if she is looking back on her own stupidity when she left the Jedi order. Those feelings she had about the war and just walking out without ever acting on them. Yeah, she had the chance to be smarter than Mace or Yoda (Not really, she had no idea what was going on. All she knows is not all separatists are baby kicking jerks and this one Jedi is a traitor who thinks the republic is corrupt) as some put it and she abandoned everyone for her own childish pride. I really liked
@Darth Valkyrus 's idea of Ahsoka coming back this dark, ruthless, savaged soul. I don't want grimdark but sure lets grimdark her. Even if she get slotted into the mentor role which is my unfortunate prediction for how Ashoka my walk into the set in Rebels.
Oh, I agree with all of that. It's not that she's been shown to be a character without flaw. I didn't mean to imply that with my use of the word "pet."
More the directorial decisions, like the use of zoom and dynamic poses like this:
Or glamor shots like this:
The use of close-up shots during episodes.
It's not that Tano was the only character to ever get such treatment in an episode, of course, but when I first heard rumblings of Tano favoritism, I was curious and started to give the topic more scrutiny.
I found that Tano received this kind of treatment much, much more often that any other character in TCW. She receives, for example, a high number more of close-up shots on her face than any other character. When there's a key moment in a given situation, the "camera" almost invariably focuses tight on Tano's face, watching for her reaction, that the audience might pick up how to interpret events from her cues. It's a subtle thing, meant to signal to the audience a particular character's importance, and help the public to self-identify with her character.
Then there is the more clumsy, more obvious example of shoe-horning Tano into any number of situations where another character would have made far more sense.
There were the instances where stories were altered in Tano's favor. Filoni revealed that he changed the hero of Henry Gilroy's Zygerrian slavers arc to Tano (and went as far as to include cringe-inducing dialog like "Ahsoka's the real hero" to drive the point home), when Gilroy's original story was meant as a character study of Anakin Skywalker and his issues, not Tano's.
The most cited example, of course, is Filoni's insistence that Ahsoka survive TCW when George Lucas fully intended for her to meet her fate before ROTS.
I mean, if I cared to author a thesis on the topic, there's much more ammo to draw from than these couple of examples, but it's really not that big of a deal. Like I said, it's a common enough occurrence. It's just something that tends to stick out for some of us, and well, it's something I'd rather not still be an issue with Rebels..
She was stupid in that final arc but I have about as little tolerance for stupidity as I do for character showcasing. Plus there's the idea that in the Citadel arc, for example, we were supposed to believe that her disobedience wasn't important because she was so much wiser than the other Jedi, but in the final arc, we were supposed to excuse her stupidity because she was a kid? Pick a characterization and stick with it, writers.
Or you can look at is as Ahsoka being a stupid kid and getting away with it because of Plo, thus stepping on Anakin's toes and giving him that much more distrust for the Jedi Council. I could add selfishness and bratty tenancies to the list of Ahsoka's flaws. Kinda that same way my 16 year old brother thinks he's smarter than everybody else. He's an expert with all kinda of electronics ya know? Yet he goes to try to hook up my parents' new soundbar up to their TV and jacked that all up.
And Anakin's, too, for that matter.
They sure made a heck of a pair, huh?
Yes, mini version of Anakin works as yet another flaw. And we can't say she bested him or learned to defeat her attachments. Yeah she let Lux go but in the end Ahsoka was a quitter. Nobody likes a quitter.
The difference is, we in the audience were never told that we were supposed to take Anakin's side in his disputes with the Council. The Council was right, Anakin was self-centered and bratty, we knew it. In Ahsoka's case, it seems that we're supposed to come away with the impression that the Jedi Masters are being mean to her in the final arc, and in the Citadel, nobody exactly argued with Plo when he covered her ass.
I didn't feel like we were told to take anyones side. I felt like in the Citadel Arc thats one thing that was left for us to make up our own minds on who was right or wrong. Whose fault was the whole thing anways? Then again I don't feel like I get told to take anything any particular way when I watch anything on TV (or read something) and do tend to microanalyses everything to try and find many different interpretations to reach one I feel works for me.
And we should totally move discussion about Ashoka in TCW episodes to one of her own threads and stick to chatting about Ahsoka as would be relevant to Rebels which I know just limits us to these pesky, beaten to death 'what if' (Or OMG panic!) discussions.
+1. It's easy to get sidetracked, but you're right.
Hmmmm, good point. I never really noticed this much on my viewings, but now that you mention it this is indeed the case throughout the show, particularly the later seasons. I'm immediately reminded of
@CT-867-5309 's post here showing closeups of Ahsoka's expressions in Citadel Rescue. Yes, they did seem to include these to subconsciously get viewers to identify with her character, but whether one feels this is disingenuous or not is really based on one's own mileage, I suppose.
OTOH, there were indeed times where Ahsoka wasn't so high and mighty and set on a pedestal...like the latter half of the Youngling arc and throughout the Fugitive arc, as
@Seerow pointed out. Although times like these seemed more the exception than the rule by Season 5.
Although seriously, all this talk of Ahsoka in the REBELS thread (when we still have no idea whether or not she will show up) is almost enough to make me go ragequit here.
"They see me rollin', They hatin'."
Well TCW was to an extent her show.
The entire SW saga as a whole, is of course the story of the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skyalker.
But subsections of the saga are sorta-kinda told more through the eyes of others. The OT is through the eyes of Luke. The PT is kinda through the eyes of Obi-Wan.
Valkyrus points that out, too, and it's absolutely a fair point, and something I've always considered. As with any production, TCW was trying to establish a breakout star of its own (whether this was a good idea, or if Anakin should have been the focus of a series set during this particular time period, is arguable, though, I think).
Still, not every show is so heavy-handed with it, and when one takes these things (and more) and couples them together with Filoni's admitted affections, I think it becomes pretty clear why some folks see "pet" written all over Ahsoka's forehead.
I hear 'ya, but fear not! My point was that I hope these type of things can be avoided when Tano makes her inevitable appearance in Rebels (and really, we all know she'll be there at some point).
edit: Oh, and thanks for highlighting Jenny's posts. There's some good stuff there.
TCW isn't the only last round animated show guilty of this. I thought that Transformers Prime was pretty guilty of this with the character Miko and staff even admitted it in an interview. It appears Rebels will be full of OCs which will help out with that since it should be harder to attach an character to an existing favorite like Anakin or Plo. I have to say if Greg Wiesman ever had a pet character in show he worked on I never picked up on exactly who it was. I think Brooklyn would be my best guess on his character favorite from Gargoyles. I know people however accused him of that in Young Justice.
Man I miss Young Justice, if Greg Weisman handles the teens in Rebels the same way he did in YJ, I for one will be happy. They were all likeable but also had their flaws and were usually hiding something from the others on the team. Hopefully he'll also follow the same writing layout of single episode stories while the overall arc lasts the entire season.
867-5309 was once an available phone number in Gastonia, NC; in the 80s a couple of people opened a bookstore called "Jenny's Bookstore", requested that number and got it. Or so I was told at the time, it might have been a bull**** story I was given at school by someone who knew I liked the song.
Back on topic: Greg Weismann not letting anyone know who his favorite character is, gives me a lot of hope for the show. That and a focus on originals whose fate isn't predetermined. I was willing to sacrifice that suspense as a trade-off for lots of Anakin and Obi-Wan scenes, but for Rebels I'd rather see non-pet OCs.
That's probably the main reason why I'm going to miss TCW.
How about Galen and Kento Marek and how Galen kind of started the rebellion?
Rahm Kota too.
Pet characters are normal. I prefer a writer who feels for his characters rather than be all aloof and disengaged. This intimate relationship to the characters can lead to better and deeper writing.
At least when the writer is self-aware. If he is self-absorbed like Zahn you get Mary Sues and Gary Stus infinitely.
Getting back on topic, what about having Rex turn up in Rebels? It seems to be hinted that the Empire is recruiting on Lothal so you may have Stormtrooper barracks and training. Wasn't it said that you might see some old clones as drill sargeants and in a training capacity? Maybe a good place to continue Rex's "good solider vs doing the right thing" character arc? While there has been alot of talk in this thread a potential meeting between Ahsoka and Vader, I think a meeting between Rex and Ahsoka during this time period could be pretty interesting. Give Rex a glorious on-screen death. If anyone in the SW universe deserves on, it's him.
On this, we agree. I think that you're right about being self-aware. Avoiding indulgences which come at the expense of the greater story is important to me (particularly in an enterprise like SW, with so many different fingers in the pie, so many prior established "rules," and the like), but I absolutely want the author to care about the characters he or she is helping to shape. The key for my enjoyment often hinges on whether a writer (or team of writers) is able to strike a balance.
Happily, almost to a man, everyone speaks highly of the writing team assembled for Rebels. I think we could be in store for something really great! I'm really looking forward to the premiere.
I don't think pet characters are normal; I think a writer caring about a character he or she created is normal but there is a way to do that without making the character a pet. I draw the line at being willing to sacrifice the story for the sake of the character, which I saw Filoni doing, which is the opposite of what J.K. Rowling did with Sirius Black. She obviously cared for that character but the story had to move forward despite her personal feelings.
As far as Weismann, as you said, I've heard nothing but good things. If he and the other writers can do humor as well as characterization, we should be in for a good ride.
Anything besides blatant "The Empire is Bad" Rebel Propaganda.
I also want to see Ahsoka.....I know, my personalities taken a complete 180.
There's been a pretty good debate about if Rex survives the bonus material and turns up in Rebels (I hope he does, on both counts), just how he should be portrayed.
I think most have placed themselves pretty squarely in one of three camps:
1. Rex remains loyal to the Empire, and is likely among the soldiers of the 501st who storm the Jedi Temple with Vader during Operation: Knightfall in ROTS (though with then-Commander Appo heading up the troops, the question of what happened to Rex does arise).
2. Rex disavows Order 66 and, assuming he survives the immediate fallout of the Great Jedi Purge, goes on either to lend his talents to a fledgling resistance group, or live a life of peaceful solitude (perhaps even with a family of his own), a la Cut Lawquane.
3. Rex will not, in fact, survive into the time of Rebels, or if he does, not playing a role of any particular note in greater-galactic affairs, he will simply not appear in the series.
Personally, with the events of Onderon serving as a kind of springboard, I think I'd most like to see an aging Rex eventually take up arms against the Empire (perhaps in defense of his family, and/or land). That said, I'll admit there's a certain kind of appeal to seeing Rex putting on the armor of an Imperial Stormtrooper, too. I really like Rex, and I'm hopeful that we'll see more of him in the new series. I just hope that whatever is decided, it's well-conceived and executed.
You're absolutely correct about older clones acting in the role of training new troopers, but when I've imagined who may appear in such a role, it's Cody who I've always pictured in my mind's eye (pretty much in keeping with his EU portrayal).