Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Hating on the prequels seems common online, and especially when celebrities are involved in random Star Wars related polls and things like that, they seem to be some of the most consistently negative about it.

    With the people I interact with day-to-day, anyone that is at least in the 30 or younger age group largely either like the prequels or at least have no strong negative opinions.

    I have a friend who went along with a group to see AOTC, and then went along to see Revenge of the Sith a few years later when it was released. He ended up enjoying both but had never seen any of the OT films or TPM. I thought that was unacceptable for someone my age -- like finding out someone had never seen E.T. Even if he didn't like the, I would have expected someone that was 16 around the time AOTC came out to have seen the OT. So I loaned him ANH for a week so he could watch it. He returned it a week later and said that he only got about as far as the "that's no moon, it's a space station" part, and said it was incredibly boring.

    That was probably the first experience I had with someone not only liking the prequels more, but downright disliking the OT.

    To each their own.

    As for TCW, I've only known one other person outside of internet acquaintances in my age group that watched it. I think most are oblivious that it even existed. My brother gave the TCW film a shot when it was shown on television, and I think that put him off from the series forever.
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  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Hating on the Prequels ? Never heard of it.
  3. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Another thing people who hate everything about the PT harp on that is really insignificant in it: midichlorians. They never bothered me, and I'm yet to hear a complaint about them that makes sense. It was already the case that some people were born genetically more in tune with the Force than others. Midichlorians just gave you the name they had for it.
  4. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    I'm not sure how old my friend at work is other than he is old enough to have been through a couple marriages and to have an 11 year old son. I know that's no way to judge. I'm confident he is what I call Nostalgia Blinded. Now those things are subjective but I often find people most enjoy what they remember seeing first somewhere between 7-11 years old. If they were shown lots of the OT first then that's how it goes.

    If they grew up with the PT being their introduction to SW then they'll like that better. I bet there will be a bunch of kids 10-20 years from now who are gonna look at TCW the same way. Much like there are kids who see the Microseries as the best SW because that's what they remember in their childhood about SW. Yeah there is alot of subjectivity. I know that's not everybody since there are people who love both and there are people who will love anything with Star Wars on the package. I haven't decided myself which I like better. That's just my personal observation, not just with SW but other franchises that have multiple generations of fans.
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  5. Darth Kickass Jedi Master

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    As someone who is old enough to have seen Empire (original release) I really enjoyed the prequels. I also enjoyed TCW. I think some of the older fans (like myself) had such a hunger for more Star Wars due to the time lag between OT and PT and the EU became THE source for Star Wars content. It seems to me most of the resentment towards both the PT and TCW stems from contradictions created by these EU works. It will be the same for Rebels and especially anything post-ROTJ. As I've stated before, Star Wars to me has always been about eye candy, when it comes to books I'm more Stephen King.
  6. 07jonesj Force Ghost

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    Rose-tinted glasses, yeah. I'm an exception to that rule, I enjoy stuff more now than I used to. More appreciation for all the effort that goes into works of fiction. I try to be as objective as I possibly can when discussing things like this, unless it's just my opinion I'm expressing. Obviously it's impossible to be truly objective.

    There are some films which bore me that I can say are objectively good films. Good character development, dialogue, pacing etc. Just not for me. It works the other way too. I love X-Men 3. No idea why, because it's not a good film.

    In regards to SW, I feel it says a lot that different generations have different periods of content they consider to be "their SW." Does it really matter that they dislike the other stuff? Somehow SW continues to evolve, and yet fundamentally stay the same, to reach new generations as they continue to grow up. That's pretty amazing.
  7. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I will admit that I hate the concept of midichlorians. It is a minor thing compared to the larger complaints I have (mostly Jar Jar, Jake Lloyd, the fact that the villains are a trading cartel with annoying droids, and no real imposing villain with a presence like Vader had in ANH). I also thought that the way Palpatine had to change plans on the fly worked out a little too conveniently since the exact thing that Palpatine didn't want to happen (Padme reaching Coruscant) ends up being the best thing that could possibly happen, and it seemed too easy with no real apparent difficulty in spinning that into an advantage.

    I would say that midichlorians irritate me for the same reason that you are OK with them. They are insignificant, and so it just felt like an unnecessary concept to introduce and then explain. It's like introducing the Star Wars equivalent of the X-Men's X-gene. Only while the latter is significant in defining the characters as mutants and explaining why they are feared, consider themselves the next step in evolution, and is very much relevant to the stories told within that franchise, midichlorians turns something mystical into something pseudoscientific.

    Force sensitivity may have been hereditary, but I would have rather had the in universe explanation be that it was merely not know why this is the case, that "the Force works in mysterious ways" or something mystical like that. Not that the Jedi can just take a blood sample and know someone's Force potential based on the presence of subcellular components.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Sep 9, 2013
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Midichlorians.

    If only Yoda had mentioned them on Dagobah.... I would be ... nah, I'd still hate them.
  9. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    For an example I think some of the funniest debates I've seen recently were actually with the Transformers fandom over Transformers Prime. Pretty much any debate involving the kids I felt was full of it. One argument in particularly was the one for when one of the kids Jack broke radio silence and sent a text message to his mother to let her know he was okay. Folks were all over that with it being out of character and how it should have been Miko who usually caused all the trouble breaking radio silence. Oh these kids are horrible, Spike was never this dumb, can we just get Beast Wars with no humans again? People forget G1's campy 80s charms. Why do people seem to remember humans never doing anything in G1? They are in pretty much every episode and almost always blow it. It was never that big a deal or surprising if you consider Miko doesn't give a damn about her host parents so duh she isn't going to break radio silence and Jack is either the best or worst mama's boy ever depending on how you want to look at it. Being a mama's boy X2 takes dedication to being a mama's boy. Ofcourse he's going to call.

    Awesome! I consider myself to be an exception to the nostalgia blind rule. I wouldn't be much of an animation buff otherwise since I try to always check out say the latest Batman cartoon and its pretty lame to just bash everything that's come after Batman The Animate Series as inferior. I'm not perfect, I've been guilty before. One of the reasons I'm not particularly fond of the Microseries is because I associate it with when CN was selling out and the old Toonami block was going down hill. Toonami was a showcase for the best in action animation. To me stuff like the Microseries, Samurai Jack, and Powerpuff Girls rerunning on it were just out of place although they could also be considered action animation. They just weren't anime and they weren't prime western animation like Batman Beyond.

    It says alot for the longevity and size of the SW franchise. Its a wonderful thing to find fiction that keeps on growing. Most things come to an end and then after a while the fandom scatters. Its great to have so many fans with so many different opinions which really facilitates discussions. I think one of the funnest things is to discuss every little plot hole to death and try to fill in the gaps with fanon which is where such diversity, some of that hard to have open-mindedness and objectivity really come in handy. I love that fact that so far no one has tried to sell their fanon as a truth, as if that's the only way things will work.
    Last edited by Seerow, Sep 10, 2013
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  10. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    I don't see it as an in-universe explanation so much as an in-universe interpretation. I think it's fair to assume people in the Star Wars universe used the Force before they had the science to detect midichlorians. When their science was advanced enough to detect something apparently related to Force-sensitivity, they developed a way to quantify it and gave it a name.

    From a post by Feel Like What on the temps (who apparently isn't here anymore) preserved by @ATMachine:

    Learning this made me go from being ambivalent about the concept to thinking it's cool. It was an idea GL had about the Force all along but just didn't have the chance to stick it in. Also, if you check the original 1976 Star Wars: From The Adventures of Luke Skywalker novel Obi-Wan says stuff about their being Jedi scientists, which seems to also work into the larger picture about the midichlorians.
  11. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    I'm rather ambivalent toward the whole concept of midi-chlorians, like you used to be, Tarkas. But I have to admit that being into biology myself, I am fascinated that they can exist to explain why an individual would have some latent potential in the Force, or rather the ability to be Force-sensitive, as determined by midi count. At the same time, I can understand the sentiment many have that they don't really add anything significant to the plot of the films (other than to prove that Anakin might be the prophesied Chosen One due to his abnormally high count). Although I admit that it'll then be little more than a plot device.

    However, when used well, I really can appreciate the midi-chlorians for what they are, and they were in fact a crucial element to the plot of Darth Plagueis. The novel describes midi-chlorians this way:
    I thought the novel provided an excellent explanation as to what midi-chlorians really are, and how they could be interpreted differently by the opposing sects of Jedi and Sith. Plagueis revealed the actual significance of midi-chlorians that the prequels, particularly TPM, largely failed to elucidate. It was the whole idea of Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation that ultimately led to Anakin's immaculate birth, the Force's response to the growing imbalance of Dark and Light. The EU's expansion on the idea made me appreciate the midi-chlorians far more now than I did when I first saw the films.

    I found it interesting that I can't recall midi-chlorians even mentioned once in TCW, almost as if the writers wanted to divorce themselves of the concept. Even in the Mortis arc, Qui-Gon's ghost makes absolutely no mention of them. Not that I'm complaining, as they wouldn't have served any real purpose to the plot of those episodes.
    Last edited by Circular Logic, Sep 10, 2013
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    That's really interesting from the Plagueis novel, and that's been next on my list of Star Wars books for a really long time, it's just been awhile since I bought a new Star Wars book. I think midichlorians are something the Jedi (and Sith) scientists had theories and beliefs about, with different interpretations, and that quote seems to verify that. Another reason why I don't get the midichlorian haters is that it just determines potential - you still need to learn to feel and use the Force and put a ton of effort into it. Midichlorian count is really just an opportunity unless you're as extremely gifted as Anakin.
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  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    The only time I didn't hate midi's is when I read that novel... in fact, I loved all that stuff.
    I just hate them in the movies.
    :p
  14. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    It would have been one thing had midichlorians been important to the story in some way. In TPM all they did was serve to allow Qui-Gon to give Anakin a blood test and deduce from that that because these sub-cellular components are dense, he's probably the Chosen One spoken of in prophecy.

    Meanwhile, in ESB Vader didn't have to stick Luke with a needle and Palpatine need not run a midichlorian count on Luke to find out that he would be a worthy apprentice. It was something merely felt.


    And there was no reason IMO that the exact same gut feeling couldn't have been more than adequate in explaining Qui-Gon's behavior.

    E.G.

    Qui-Gon: I sense a great power within the boy. The Force has led us here for a reason, and I am certain that this boy is key.

    Instead we get Qui-Gon take a blood sample, tell Anakin he's checking for infections, and then have Obi-Wan pull some DBZ stuff to analyze Anakin's potential down to a science.



    The last thing we hear on the matter is the actual explanation, when long after the initial reading on Anakin's blood, he stops Qui-Gon with a "what the hell was that all about" moment, after hearing the Jedi talk about it.

    This is never mentioned again until ROTS, when Palpatine mentions that Plagueis could create life, with my understanding being that this line of dialogue was originally meant to imply heavily that Plagueis created Anakin, but that it was toned down to be more subtle.

    And I believe it was Luceno that had mentioned that Plagueis was a scientist and that he was obsessively trying to break the Force down into a science and that he was doomed to failure because science could not explain it all.

    So if they were going to establish Plagueis as a crazy scientist, then they could have treated "midichlorians" as hypothetical components of living cells, in the same way that theoretical physicists might assume the presence of certain particles and obsess over intangible ideas.

    IMO, they should have left midichlorians out of TPM, and if they wanted to bring them up as part of the work of Plagueis in ROTS, that would have been fine as it would have been something kept vague as to whether or not Plagueis was right, or if he was just some crazy guy trying in vain to reduce the metaphysical into a physical science.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I hate midichlorians because of one line describing one idea:

    "It is possible that he was conceived by the midichlorians."

    Because of course, Shmi couldn't just have sex like regular people.

    Yeah, I know the "virgin birth" component is in a lot of myths, but I haven't found one virgin birth or immaculate conception story that I liked.

    I like the prequels for the most part but that is one aspect that I hated.

    It's all my Star Wars. You people can't have any.

    Exactly. Well said.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Sep 10, 2013
  16. EHT Manager: New Films

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    Midichlorians are delicious, I love them. Really though, I didn't mind them and I didn't think they conflicted with what we knew of the Force from the OT. There was a precedent established by the OT that certain people had a natural inclination to be stronger with the Force, essentially by inheritance. Midichlorians merely provided a scientific explanation for that stronger connection. And they are clearly a connection to the Force, NOT the Force itself.
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  17. Mzukiller Jedi Master

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    I don't see a problem with Midichlorians. Because it gets rid of the one thing in Star Wars lore I always considered to be a plothole: If the Jedi religion is all you need to tap into the force, then why isn't everyone a Jedi? Why isn't everyone throwing around boxes with their minds? And don't even tell me "Because the Empire demonized it" Bull. If a certain belief system was able to grant people very real powers, I highly doubt that it'd be so scarce to find practitioners.

    Plus, this is still Sci-fi. I like Force Powers yeah, but I like knowing that Jedi/Sith aren't wizards that totally defy the laws of physics.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    They gave me food poisoning. :p

    @Mzukiller , I normally like sci-fi elements more than fantasy elements, in fact, most of the parts of Star Wars I dislike, are far more fantasy and mythology than science fiction. The "will of the Force," dying of a broken heart, the cave vision, Mortis, etc.

    Maybe I would have liked midichlorians better if the presentation had been different? I don't know.
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  19. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I don't think it was a big plot hole prior to midichlorians. It would be as easy as saying that it is "the will of the Force" that certain individuals be able to tap into the power, while others cannot. Or that someone like Han could have been trained to be a Jedi, but that Obi-Wan would never train someone fueled by greed whereas Luke was "pure of heart" or some other cliche bs.

    Like, I don't need to know why Arthur can pull the sword from the stone. I don't need a biological reason for why he was able to, while those physically stronger could not.

    Or even use the in universe answer of "I don't know." In modern religions there are a lot of blanks and a leap of faith inevitably has to be made. As to why some people are Force sensitive and why despite Jedi being forbidden from attachments (which would significantly reduce the amount of Jedi having kids) why do Force sensitives not go extinct over time? Why does a steady supply keep coming, seemingly arising spontaneously? The answer could have been appropriately (IMO) left to something like "it's the will of the Force" (i.e. the Jedi and Sith don't have it all figured out yet).
  20. Sannom Jedi Master

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    Wouldn't that solution still make the midichlorians relevant? I always thought they were just organisms which grew in Force-sensitive people, not the reason for the Force-sensitivity. Just as well, I really don't think they can be 'blamed' for the "hereditary Force-sensitivity' which has become a staple of the E.U. : that was a result of the first trilogy.
  21. Mzukiller Jedi Master

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    So what's the general consensus on Boba Fett in this show? I thought it was okay, very nice to see them try to hype him up, but I thought it was silly how this 12 year old boy ends up in a maximum security prison with a shaved head and quite possibly tattoos.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I couldn't stand him, but I think he's an overrated character anyway. I never understood all the film and EU Boba Fett hype.

    I felt like I should have been able to sympathize with him since he's a kid who lost his father, and of course he'd want revenge on Mace, but he came across as such a conceited little punk that I wasn't able to root for him at all.
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  23. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

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    Boba was like 16 or 17 when he was in prison,

    But who cares about Boba, probably the most overrated character in SW
  24. Revanchist7 Jedi Padawan

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    I forget exactly when Boba went to jail, but he was 11 in 20 BBY
  25. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    I'm sorry to say TCW didn't do a whole lot for Boba. I don't think I got much more of a glimpse into him than I get from the movies.The little mass murderer blew up an entire Star Destroyer to kill one person and deserved to be humiliated by Ventress. Don't get me wrong I feel sorry for his bad luck in the mother figure he found. Honestly (don't laugh) didn't know much more about Boba other than Daniel Logan, what his armor looked like, and that he was just some bad guy bounty hunter anyways who went out like a punk in ROTJ.