Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    @anakinfansince1983

    That's true. I remember when TPM came out, a family friend asked me and my brother if we thought the movie was suitable for her kids (who were a few years younger than us at the time), and we both thought it would be fine and was perfectly kid friendly, but her kids ended up being prone to wanting to emulate the movie and have "lightsaber fights" with sticks.

    When I was 7 or 8, watching World Wrestling Federation made me and my brother stupid like that.

    I would have been 7 when Jurassic Park came out (my favorite movie of all time), and I remember loving it. Though I know I have friends that are the same age that said it gave them nightmares.
  2. Dinos4Ever Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2013
    star 2
    I felt TCW did in many cases. it often times showed the relationships that Anakin built... or broke, during the course of the War that led up to Anakin finally giving in to his hate and fear in RotS.
  3. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I think TCW showed various negative character traits of Anakin Skywalker, which would only increase once he turns to the dark side. Apparently he's going to make an jealous angry rant about Padme and Clovis in the Clovis arc. He has an extremist black-or-white attitude, including agreeing with Tarkin that victory should be achieved through any means. He considered Padme's approach of befriending an separatist senator outright treachery.

    Anakin's overly violent tendencies are shown when he threatens Ventress, force chokes Scintel, and stabs Merrick. He hunted down Ahsoka when she was escaping with his entire squadron which was serious overkill and overreaction considering Ahsoka had her reasons.
  4. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    @Celtic Kaiju I agree with that. For me the character was expanded generally, not just in one aspect, giving him enough nuance to make me believe in and identify with the character. It wouldn't have been enough to just expand on him in a positive or negative light.
  5. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I find it interesting that GL said no to Sith spirits but came up with the idea of Maul surviving bisection. Would it have made more sense for Maul to be a spirit mentoring Savage?
  6. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Not particularly. Lucas said no sith spirits so it would preserve Obi-Wan's line about becoming more powerful than Vader could imagine in ANH.
  7. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    I think there are ways to reconcile Sith spirits existing in the EU with Obi-Wan's line in ANH.


    I like the idea of Sith Force ghosts having obvious limitations that make them distinct from that of Jedi Force Ghosts. They are trapped in a certain location or within an artifact like the spirits of some of the ancient Sith Lords in their tombs and essentially forced into a tortured, twisted existence. It's not a state a normal individual would ever strive for, but a true Sith Lord would do whatever it takes to cling to some semblance of life, refusing to surrender to death; from Darth Andeddu all the way to Darth Maul, this is a irrevocable truth of the Sith, that desire, that need, to live forever so that they can have eternal influence in the profane world. A sufficiently powerful Sith Lord may thus be able to survive death as a spirit, but at great cost to both the mind and the soul. They are never at peace; they are always striving to return to their former glory but can never do so, instead they slowly turn to madness over the aeons of isolation, like Exar Kun in a temple at Yavin 4. Far less powerful than they were in life.

    Now contrast this with the Jedi Force ghosts, who willingly relinquish their bodies to embrace the great beyond of death, and this is shown by symbolically and literally with Obi-Wan and Yoda's bodies vanishing as their pass into the Force. Like Qui-Gon said, the Jedi is then "freed" from his mortal coil and willingly embraces the will of the Force. Hence Obi-Wan's line "I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Unlike the Sith spirits, Light Side Force Ghosts are truly at peace with the Force; they are really more powerful than what a Sith Lord, always desperate to cling to a mortal existence, can ever imagine.
  8. JediGirl_Angelina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    ^^ These. One of the things I loved the most was how TCW showed a much deeper characteristic of Anakin. Not in in a way that would scream "this is why he turns!", but often only hinting on his evil traits.
    purplerain likes this.
  9. SeparatistFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2012
    star 1
    Does anyone else find it confusing how the CIS leaders fit in to things? I always assumed that they wanted the Separatists to win the war so they could rule the republic, but the IGBC funds the republic so why would the Separatist Leaders want that to happen if they want to win the war? On Heroes on Both Sides Lott Dod, Gume Saam and Nix Card just seem to want the war to carry on so they get a profit.
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  10. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Urgh I definitely agree with this. Just when the Separatists start to make sense, the episodes threw another zinger plotline into the mess. I remember back in 2005 people would complain when the EU made the IBC neutral. Now everyone's neutral... or quasi-neutral... when they want to be. Or some corporations are part neutral, except for the fellows who are obviously selling to either side and make no bones about it. Or something.

    Meanwhile all the big shot Separatists sat out the war behind bars. No wonder they all looked so confused when Grievous was talking in ROTS.
    Last edited by Barriss_Coffee, Sep 25, 2013
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    After two movies and a five-season-long series, I still have no idea what the hell the CIS wanted.

    I initially assumed that they were leaving the Republic because they wanted to be free of the Republic's taxation and trade laws, and they were drawn to Dooku because he was an ex-Jedi who shared their disgust with the Republic and he was a good leader.

    But if the show is to be believed, the Separatist cause primarily involved electrocuting Jedi and other Republic citizens and laying waste to Republic planets.

    But they were the bad guys and bad guys do bad-guy things. And the Jedi were the bad guys for fighting them. Or something.
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  12. SeparatistFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2012
    star 1
    Lol at "Meanwhile all the big shot Separatists sat out the war behind bars. No wonder they all looked so confused when Grievous was talking in ROTS." I don't like how Wat Tambor and Poggle the Lesser were still in prison in Season 5, it just gives the impression that they are of no major importance to the CIS, I mean if a breakout was to happen in the bonus content it just wouldn't make sense them being broken out after such a long time after - Dooku suddenly deciding to break them out just before ROTS. They should have been broken out much earlier or never have been captured in the first place,
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  13. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    It sucked TCW never got around to getting the CIS leaders they treated as monsters of the day early on, out of prison. I doubt any of us are counting on the Bonus Material to resolve this. Its quite a plothole. Perhaps they escape during the leader of to ROTS. I'm think the chaos of the Microseries. Maybe in all the chaos of Ahsoka's fake breaking out of prison they got out. Perhaps Barriss was all a distraction while Maul went in there and broke them out.
  14. Dinos4Ever Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2013
    star 2
    It's called war profiteering. You have members of your company play both sides, so that you profit from the war. That's why they wanted the War to continue. The Republic is tied because they sunk all their eggs into the IGBC before the War started, and they can't break with them now because otherwise the Republic would go bankrupt and have no money to fight the war. The IGBC then wants more freedom to sell to whomever the please, even to systems that the Republic as at war with. And again, the Republic has no choice because they know the IGBC already do business with the CIS and so will gladly take all of the Republic's money to the CIS if the Republic does decide to try to break away from the IGBC. It's the same exact thing with the TF. They're playing both sides for a larger profit.
  15. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Ok, so my main issue is with how the Powers That Be behind the films and TCW kept changing the rules of the game over the years. And I think TCW forgot what the war was really about.

    Let me backtrack a moment:

    It made sense when the EU claimed the IBC was "neutral" way back after AOTC was released. The EU might have gotten that claim from something Lucas said, but it was so long ago I can't remember. Now this claim to neutrality was lost (in the EU) when the Battle of Muunilinst occurred.

    The TCW creators liked the neutrality idea and applied it to the TF. But only Lott Dod. Lott Dod claimed Gunray was a zany nutter who was part of an "extremist" faction of the TF that the Republic-represented TF folk didn't want to have anything to do with (I mean yeah, OOU we all know he's lying through his teeth, but that's his excuse). And while I'm not particularly happy with a situation like that, I'll buy it. But it's not like the Republic is dependent on the TF. As TPM showed, the TF doesn't want to get on the Republic's bad side because it's not the Republic's #1 supplier of anything. The TF doesn't even make the majority of its own weapons -- it buys them from the Techno Union.

    Ok, then there's that really weird scene in Season 3 where they introduce the new & improved IBC and it makes absolutely no sense. The IBC dude just casually brags about financing several million battle droids and Padme and Bail barely bat an eye. They just continue complaining about the tax hike. I can't even think of a reasonable real-world analogy for this. So I'm gonna go for Godwin's Law here. It would be like the Swiss bank trying to tax the hell out of the Allies and using that money to finance Germany, all the while bragging about it without abandon on Ally soil. Oh, and the Chairman of the Swiss bank is captured and in jail. Oh, and the Swiss capital was attacked by the Allies early in the war and uh, conquered (aka the Battle of Muunilinst).

    That analogy doesn't even work -- there's no reasonable real-world comparison that can be made here.

    Ok, so Season 3 establishes it's not the companies and the companies' planets the Republic is fighting (which I thought AOTC had established fairly clearly, seeing is that's why they went to war in the first place), but... it's about some disgruntled planets that don't like the Republic. Who are these planets? Where were they in the films? Did Filoni pull them out of his magic hat? What exactly is their relationship with all those companies, then? How come the films are all about the companies?


    See, this is my problem. The show wasn't just altering what we knew from the EU, but it was running counter to what we see in the films. And counter to basic logic. There's war profiteering, and then there's single-handedly running one side of a war while trying to finagle your way onto the opposite side's Senate so you can tax the hell out of them. And then brag about it.
  16. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    Filoni considered having Padme still in the process of negotiating with the CIS when Palpatine got "kidnapped". GL rightly rejected that.
    SeparatistFan and Circular Logic like this.
  17. SeparatistFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2012
    star 1
    The trouble is the neutrality stuff didn't just mess up how stuff was explained in the EU, but what we saw in AOTC and TCW. S1 gives me the impression that the corporations were all all Separatist, for instance Anakin said something on the Ryloth arc like "The longer the Techno Union have a hold on Ryloth the more difficult it will be to release them" and there was another comment made by Padme on the Malevolence arc which gives me the impression that the Banking Clan were only with the Separatists.

    Filoni actually discuses this corporation problem in the video commentary on the S4 blu ray for the Umbara arc, I can't remember what he said exactly, but he explains why the new Separatist Supply Ship was made because George doesn't want the Separatist Luchrehulks on TCW due to the TF neutrality story. He mentions that the EU gave the impression that the corporations were with Separatists, but that's not the case. He also mentioned the Luchrehulks which were on ROTS meant that the corporations must have ended up going all out with the Separatists or at least the TF did. He mentioned that the Separatist Congress needs to come to light with the Separatist Council that you seen in the films. So he did want some of the issue to explained on TCW, I just hope some of this problem gets sorted out in the bonus content, the Clovis arc being the most likely one for some of this to get explained. Even if all of the corporation leaders were to end up going fully with the CIS, it would not sort out the problem of the Luchrehulks that appeared in the earlier seasons and the impression that AOTC and S1 gave about the corporations being Separatist.

    The way I make sense out of some of the story is that the CIS leaders are known Separatists, so corporation leaders like Nute Gunray and San Hill use the corporation senators that pretend to be neutral in the same way that Maul used Almec because they needed the good people of the corporations to be controlled by someone who they believe is neutral.
  18. SeparatistFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2012
    star 1
    The trouble is the neutrality stuff didn't just mess up how stuff was explained in the EU, but what we saw in AOTC and TCW. S1 gives me the impression that the corporations were all all Separatist, for instance Anakin said something on the Ryloth arc like "The longer the Techno Union have a hold on Ryloth the more difficult it will be to release them" and there was another comment made by Padme on the Malevolence arc which gives me the impression that the Banking Clan were only with the Separatists.

    Filoni actually discuses this corporation problem in the video commentary on the S4 blu ray for the Umbara arc, I can't remember what he said exactly, but he explains why the new Separatist Supply Ship was made because George doesn't want the Separatist Luchrehulks on TCW due to the TF neutrality story. He mentions that the EU gave the impression that the corporations were with Separatists, but that's not the case. He also mentioned the Luchrehulks which were on ROTS meant that the corporations must have ended up going all out with the Separatists or at least the TF did. He mentioned that the Separatist Congress needs to come to light with the Separatist Council that you seen in the films. So he did want some of the issue to explained on TCW, I just hope some of this problem gets sorted out in the bonus content, the Clovis arc being the most likely one for some of this to get explained. Even if all of the corporation leaders were to end up going fully with the CIS, it would not sort out the problem of the Luchrehulks that appeared in the earlier seasons and the impression that AOTC and S1 gave about the corporations being Separatist.

    The way I make sense out of some of the story is that the CIS leaders are known Separatists, so corporation leaders like Nute Gunray and San Hill use the corporation senators that pretend to be neutral in the same way that Maul used Almec because they needed the good people of the corporations to be controlled by someone who they believe is neutral.
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.
  19. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Ahhhh the Lucrehulk issue. Yet another wrench in the neutrality argument, and it reminds me of something Filoni said at Celebration 6. He made the comment that if Lucas were to do it again, say make a Special Edition of ROTS, he would leave the Lucrehulks out of the Battle of Coruscant in light of TCW's politics.

    Since I don't think it was recorded, I call my first witness to the stand:

    @blackmyron: you were there too right? If fact, weren't you the one who asked him the question that led to that response?
    SeparatistFan likes this.
  20. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I'm glad Lucas retired. Just sayin'.
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  21. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I think part of the issue is that GL was trying to use TCW to explore things that the movies didn't have time for.
  22. SeparatistFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2012
    star 1
    I remember reading about that and if I remember correctly he also said that George wished that he had made the TF neutral from the beginning since it would be less confusing. Before Senate Spy it all seems pretty simple that the corporations are fully with the CIS, the only possible thing that might go against that is if it was confirmed that Gume Saam was the Techno Union senator before he appeared in TCW since he was in the republic senate building on ROTS, if that was confirmed before TCW then that is some proof that not all of the corporations were totally separatist.

    I made a mistake in my previous comment, I meant to say " Even if all of the corporations were to end up going fully with the CIS (not the CIS leaders since as far as I'm concerned they are fully with the CIS anyway), it would not sort out the problem of the Luchrehulks that appeared in the earlier seasons and the impression that AOTC and S1 gave about the corporations being Separatist."
  23. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    C'mon guys, even George doesn't know how the CIS works, I doubt he ever did.
  24. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Yep, I asked a question about why the Seppie ships were different in the show from ROTS. Filoni indicated that he thought they were the same as far as he knew, but then segued into the illuminating bit about the Lucrehulks.
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  25. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    New S5 boxset trailer:


    As far as I can tell, the bolded part is the only thing that's different (it's missing).
    Interesting considering Maul and Dooku never interacted. Perhaps they released it would be false advertising.
    Last edited by JackG, Sep 27, 2013
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