Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
The first half of what? The series or the finale?
It has its highs and lows. I'll save you some trouble.
Onderon arc- meh
Young Jedi arc- decent
Droid arc- awful
Maul arc- excellent
Ahsoka/fugitive arc- decent
The fifth season was the worst IMO. I haven't even bought the DVDs and have no plans to, unless my son decides he wants them as one of his Christmas gifts. (He liked it far more than I did.)
IMO Eminence and The Lawless were the only good episodes, while I would rate the Young Jedi arc as "OK" and the Onderon arc as "watchable."
ok, so i'm not alone. i didn't like the young jedi arc either. the best thing about it was the fakeout they did when they're all trying to climb onto the ship from the speeder thing, only to have it blown out of the sky or whatever it was and get themselves captured again.
The Young Jedi arc had a great opener, but then the middle parts were just meh. Things picked up a little with drunk!Hondo, and Huyang was a great character (he even won David Tennant an Emmy). That's why I'd call it decent overall. It was a little different, but I think it was cool to see some aspects of Jedi training fleshed out this way. Of course, I thought Ahsoka was shoehorned into the story, but that's really beside the point.
Sometimes I think this thread should be retitled "Reasons why Ahsoka sucks and things DF and GL did to screw up Star Wars"
Didn't you know the title of this show was "The Clone Wars: Reasons why Ahsoka sucks and things DF and GL do to screw up Star Wars", to differentiate it from all of LFL's million other TCW projects and the previous Clone Wars show?
See I think this is what people are talking about when they say most SW fans either like Ahsoka or are "meh" about her, but in any case they don't go on and on ad infinitum about her. They don't reduce every discussion to being about her either. Well, except for the most fanatical, creepy, Fedayeen Ahsoka ultrafanboy types, but they fortunately seem to be a teeny tiny minority, even here.
Those who hate and loathe her though... oh boy. You'll hear them before you see them all right. Yes sir, you will. And that's a fact, make no mistake about it. When they are about, Ahsoka will be the topic of conversation. And the last word must be had at all costs, so the thing will go on and on.
Naming no names of course. :wink:
I should add this is not really a complaint or a bitching session, more of an observation. In case anybody got the wrong idea.
Let's not pretend that the people who like Ahsoka don't have the option of being "heard" just as loudly. None of us who dislike her have tried to silence those who like her, or have implied that liking Ahsoka is some sort of character flaw. I wish I could say as much from the opposite end. (Not you specifically, Valk, but it has happened.)
I didn't mind Ahsoka. Didn't hate her, but didn't love her either. There were arcs involving her that I hated, like the Onderon arc and the series finale, but that had more to do with the writing and direction rather than the character herself. I'm (generally) a believer that there are no terrible characters, just bad writers/writing. I've read enough comic books about classic superheroes for instance that I've seen many of them written very, very well in the hands of a capable writer, to just seeing another writing team just completely drop the ball with them.
There were times I liked Ahsoka and times I hated her, depending on the story. There was nothing inherently unlikable about her IMO, with the exception of the fact that I thought giving Anakin an apprentice put a monkey wrench in continuity that I still have a hard time ignoring. There were decisions made in TCW that - for me - make it impossible to reconcile TCW as being part of the same story as the films. Things like Gascon; Ziro the Hutt being this effeminate Basic speaking Hutt that has/had romantic feelings for the singing alien from ROTJ (drawing a blank on the name); Mama the Hutt...; Stinky; Anakin having an apprentice; The CIS' representation as a senate controlled entity rather than by the CIS council (and with the latter sitting in jail for most of the war); Grievous being an incompetent idiot, making me wonder what excuse Palpatine used to stay in office and gain more executive powers, given that the Republic ended up winning almost every conflict; etc.
It didn't feel at all like a spiritual successor to the prequels only animated, it seemed like any other Saturday morning cartoon. Like trying to call the animated Batman shows as having continuity with the Dark Knight series. It doesn't mean that I didn't find TCW to be overall a decent show, but it felt like some spinoff series with fun adventures that just don't feel like they fit with the movies.
I grew up on watching Dragonball and Dragonball Z in elementary school and middle school, and those series had a fairly unbroken continuity (pretty much one episode picks up immediately where the other left off). Yet they made movies that in no way could have fit into that continuity as there would be no place for them to fit and would contradict what was established in the series. It didn't mean that I didn't like some of these movies or some of the new characters, but they just didn't fit.
To me, the way Filoni and Lucas insist that TCW is pretty much the "official" story of The Clone Wars between Episodes II and III and treat them like like they are continuous with the films while the novels, comics and games are talked about by Filoni as though they are merely spinoff stories that are inconsistent with the films - to me - feels the same as it would if the creators of DBZ tried to insist that the films shared continuity with the series.
I would still be left shaking my head at trying to reconcile the additional stories with existing continuity, regardless of whether or not I liked them for what they were.
I'm aware that as far as LucasFilm is concerned, I am wrong, and that this is merely my own personal canon. But the day will never come where I will be able to watch AOTC and then ROTS and consider many of the stories and characters that existed in TCW as occupying the same universe as these films and occurring between them.
@TaradosGon, I really respect and understand your position. Your post is one that actually makes me stop and really think about your position because it was obviously well thought out (I would have simply replied but it would have taken up so much space). That being said, I still go back to the argument that this is George Lucas' story. Like it or not it is his vision of what happened during this period of time in the SW saga. Your analogy of DBZ is lost on me but I can think of Stephen King to relate to it. Stanley Kubrick's version of "The Shining" is one that many fans of King's works point to as a classic, but King hated it. He hated it so much he wrote his own screenplay of the story and released that. The critics hated it, the fans hated it, I didn't even like it more than the original, but at the end of the day I had to respect it. Why? Because it was HIS vision of how the story should be told on the screen. He wasn't as concerned with fan reaction or critical acclaim as he was with making sure his version of the story was being relayed. I know some think DF hijacked this series with his inclusion of Ahsoka and her prominence, but Lucas obviously had no problem with it. Unlike King's involvement with Kubrick's "The Shining", Lucas had complete creative control. Therefore I believe it to be his vision come to life, and at the end of the day, you have to respect the artist's vision of his masterpiece, like it or not.
Not following. What does "respecting the artist's vision" mean? That "vision" is above criticism or even outright hatred?
I don't think anyone has disputed Lucas' right to do whatever he wants with Star Wars, but people are entitled to hate some aspects of what he and Filoni did with it in this show.
Just as people are entitled to prefer Kubrick's "The Shining" to the miniseries that King did later. There's no debate here over what is "official," in fact there should be no debate at all, as people are only saying what they liked or disliked about a TV show--and neither liking nor disliking a work of art has to be justified.
Hey, are you debating about not debating?
BTW...How did the Ventress Halloween costume work-out?
I do not deny that as far as LucasFilm and George Lucas are concerned that TCW fits into the same continuity as the films. I merely am saying that in my own personal opinion they don't feel like they occupy the same kind of continuity in that way and therefore I am unable to seriously look at TCW as being part of the same story as the films. They feel too different such that I can't see them as fitting together. I am aware that others feel differently and have the right to do so.
But another analogy would be the Alien franchise. I love Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3 (the director's cut). Those movies all occupy the same continuity and they all fit together for me. Fox went on to make Alien Resurrection, Alien vs. Predator, and AvP: Requiem. These last three feel way too far out there and don't feel like they occupy the same universe at all. I can't watch AvP and feel like these events took place earlier on the timeline and in the same universe as Ripley's story throughout the first three Alien films. Fox could very well see it differently, I don't know. Then Ridley Scott came along and made Prometheus which to me does capture that same feel as the initial Alien film and I can accept it as occurring in the same continuity as the first three films.
It's not a matter of hating the AvP films or A:R, it's just a matter of them feeling completely different. I can watch Alien Resurrection on some level and be entertained, but a lot of the direction of plot, to lighting, to dialogue (the film seems more humorous and less dark than previous installments) just make it feel too different.
And for me it's the same with TCW. I overall liked TCW, but it just felt way too different.
@Ananta Chetan : It worked great, I got several compliments on it. Unfortunately in the two pictures that were taken of me, I looked stoned in one and had crazy Michele Bachmann eyes in the other.
I never said you can't hate it! I just said people should respect it. Hate it all you want. Just seems like some people don't seem to understand it's HIS. I know you're not one of those. Geez Anifan, this is what I talk about when I say some people may be apprehensive about posting anything contrary to what you guys think. It seems you've always got your guns loaded just looking for an opportunity to fire. Just my opinion by the way.
Thank you for the civility and apparent understanding that I'm not trying to attack your viewpoint. As a matter of fact I agree with your assessment that certain episodes don't "feel" continuous with the movies and the story they were trying to tell. My point was you have to respect an author's right to tell his story how he or she wants regardless of your approval of the content. Thanks again for the thoughtfulness of your posts, I try my best to do the same.
If you thought that post was the e-equivalent of firing a gun, I don't know what to tell you. That wasn't even a post I would use to compete for Snark Queen of LACWAC.
You should probably understand if you don't already that there is a history around here of insinuations or outright statements that nobody is allowed to have a "negative" opinion if they can't "justify" it, as well as insinuations or outright statements that having a "negative" opinion constitutes a character flaw or blatant stupidity (you'd like X if you understood it), and use of terms like "haters". When I say "around here," I'm not referring specifically to the TV Forum, I've seen it in other forums as well, and while I don't frequent many message boards I'd say it probably isn't limited to TF.N. People with "positive" opinions aren't subject to that same scrutiny to blatant condescension.
So if some of us are defensive...that's why.
Nobody around here should be afraid to say they love Ahsoka (and there are plenty of cool people here who do like her). Just don't tell me I'm somehow "wrong" because I don't, or insinuate that I should keep my negative opinion to myself. (General statement, I don't think that's what you were doing.)
Thanks for the tone Anifan. I just worry sometimes that there's some 13 yr. old kid trying to talk about his or her love for Ahsoka (just and example) who may get verbally eviscerated by someone who thinks they're talking to an adult who can compartmentalize what is being said in here and not let it carry over into "real life". If it seems that I single you out for criticism I apologize. I'm not saying you or anyone else would intentionally "hurt" someone but I sometimes wonder if we all think about who we are really responding to. You know? ( I assume you are also an adult since you speak of your children BTW) I do however appreciate the back and forth with someone who expresses themselves coherently and has valid points (even if I don't agree with all of them)
I hated that story arc for two reasons, neither of which involve Grievous....feeling dangerous today.
1. I hate kids, I really do. I don't want to watch younglings on "fantastical adventures".(This one's just me)
2. Ahsoka and Hondo felt shoehorned. Ahsoka, because who the hell trusts a padawan, during waartime, to keep 6 rambunctious younglings safe. And Hondo felt like he was getting a tad too much screentime that season.
I actually never saw the opening. Just the last two episodes, problem with my DVR.
Hey wait, are you guys arguing? I leave for 4 hours and you start fighting without me?
I love kids, which is probably why I ended up liking the arc more than I had anticipated. But I totally agree with your second point.
Nah not arguing, I just got this new soap box I was dying to try out. Sorry about that everyone.
And I thought that I was the only one who noticed this.
Ahhh... I really miss my weekly dose of TCW. Especially now that it is Fall, which reminds me even more, that season six would have started by now. Any words of consolation from my fellow fans...