Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
TCW had Sidious kicking butt. This should be enough to validate its existence, forgive all trespasses, and justify purchase of the series on Blu-ray.
That is all.
I saw the complete box-set today on Blu-Ray, at the cheapest outlet I know. It was $199. Unjustified at that price.
Holy ****. That's ridiculous at any exchange rate.
Why should I respect an, "artist," who ruins his own films as well as ones he didn't direct. One who tramples over more talented peoples' work just because he can. One who is so petty with his own fans that he suppresses more than one version of the films we all love. One who seems to have a complete lack of understanding basic concepts like comedy or even basic politics. Why should I respect Lucas' idiotic decisions when they continue to be awful?
So, no. I have absolutely NO respect for Lucas as an artist. He's the reason Star Wars exists. He's not the reason it's good.
I've always felt if Lucas had been afforded the budget he received for the PT when he was making ANH we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because he would have made the movie more in line with what he really wanted to do. He was simply working within his means, which limited his creative ability. As far as trampling on other peoples' work, I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean the special edition releases, or things in the PT or the special edition OT which contradicted some EU story?
Generally speaking I respect George Lucas. The only thing I dislike is his changing his damn mind all the time. I can forgive clunky dialogue or even cringe-worthy embarrassing dialogue (hello, fireplace scene) but the constant shifts so that I don't even know what the damn story is anymore, is little harder.
I agree actually. We wouldn't be having this conversation. If Lucas could do Star Wars 100% the way he wanted it'd be garbage and there wouldn't be the fandom there is now.
And I was referring to both the crappy SEs as well as the EU of course.
You know, I can't help but think your argument is a bit like saying Babe Ruth or Michael Jordan would still have been baseball and basketball legends even if their respective sports had never been invented.
I liked the SEs, but they had some examples of Lucas changing his mind. The PT was the worst for that though.
The EU...we're back to the argument of how much of that was Lucas and how much of it involved the authors. And it's got some good and some crap in it anyway.
It's not even the changing of Lucas' mind that gets to me so much (it can be annoying some times, occasionally he might reconsider things for better).... For me, what personally drives me insane is how pretentious he can come off as being over decisions he makes or that he might change his mind and rather than just saying so, he might go off on how that's how he "always" envisioned it.
For how many years prior to sudden announcement of Episode VII was Lucas insisting that it was ALWAYS meant to be 6 movies and that anything beyond that was a joke that went out of control, when there had been plenty of evidence that it was not a joke and that at one time he did intend to make more than 6.
There's a link to an MTV article that I've posted a couple times recently (dated from 2005) in which Lucas gets asked why they didn't change all of the Stormtroopers' voices like they did Boba's for the DVDs, and Lucas explains that the stormtroopers are a mix of clones from several different templates (INCLUDING JANGO) and that others are drafted individuals, since it proved easier and cheaper than cloning. However, in regards to Rebels, Filoni says that Lucas' notes indicate that the Jango clones were too individualistic (way to contradict AOTC and the whole point of the clone army!) and that there is not draft and all stormtroopers are volunteers.
That wasn't a slight change of his mind, but a complete 180 and the exact opposite of what he said in 2005. Something tells me somewhere in his notes it says something like:
"P.S. The clones were always meant to be individuals that opposed the Empire and that it was always envisioned that there was never a draft."
But what he says is true...from a certain point of view.
I'll be the first to admit there were elements in both the PT and the SE's that could have been done better. The PT used way too much CGI, the SE's went too far trying to make them look more like the PT, and if anyone's work on the OT was trashed it was Frank Oz's work on Yoda (still not sure what happened to the puppet between 1983 and 1999, maybe stored in a box at the bottom of large pile of props). I guess we should be thankful that Lucas didn't just decide to remake the OT with the modern technology. I do think there were some positives however. I always wanted to see Yoda in action and that was just not possible with a puppet. Mos Eisley was pretty well done, seemed more alive. The space battle scenes were awesome IMO. There was a certain amount of give and take; not all great, but definitely not all garbage. As far a Lucas changing his mind, I agree. It seemed like at times he adjusted the story with how he felt the winds were blowing, like Han shooting first. That is probably the thing that pissed me off the most. As far as EU contradictions, I'm not even going into why I don't care at all about that.
CGI has never bothered me, in fact if anything I consider it an asset. Even Greedo drawing his gun didn't bother me. And I could take or leave the prequel incorporations into the SEs (Hayden's ghost, Theed at the end of ROTJ).
The changes that bothered me involved characterizations and plot points.
Qui-Gon, as much as I love him, was never mentioned in the OT.
Anakin being a "great pilot"...of a damn podracer.
Leia remembering her mother.
Obi-Wan remembering Anakin as a "good friend" and the movies barely showing that. (That's one thing I'm very thankful to TCW for.)
The ****ing asinine piece of **** prophecy. (Just don't get me started.)
Eh, I like seeing Coruscant in RotJ; it is a nice link between trilogies.
I would argue that Theed wasn't necessary, though. Even if it is the birthplace of Sidious, it is not the galactic capital.
I'm hoping the "great pilot" part can be addressed in Rebels. Maybe the "Leia remembering her mother" too?
The explanation that has gone around is "blah blah blah the Force". That would piss me off more.
It also doesn't make sense that she would be remembering Breha instead. I can't think of an explanation that would work to be honest, so it might be better if they just left it alone at this point.
As far as the "great pilot," that was sort of addressed in TCW, along with the "navigator on a spice freighter" story.
Of course there's also Owen being upset about Anakin following Obi-Wan on a "damn fool idealistic crusade." That actually could be addressed, with an episode with Owen complaining about Anakin taking off so quickly after his mother's funeral because he had to go rescue Obi-Wan.
Anakin wasn't a great pilot?
I was thinking of the first part of the sentence "when I first met him" in relation to TPM.
Ooops! My bad I was thinking about Obi-Wan talking to Luke in ANH about his understanding of his piloting skills. It's been a long day.
I agree with virtually all of those things.
Things I would have changed with the PT, and by extension TCW where relevant:
1. Ditch Qui-Gon. Liam Neeson is great and they could have cast him elsewhere and kept him in the movie, but Qui-Gon was an unnecessary character. I would have either had Yoda be Obi-Wan's master in TPM or replaced Qui-Gon with Obi-Wan - making Obi-Wan the guy that has all the faith in Anakin. With Obi-Wan filling the role of Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan would then have an apprentice that subsequently gets killed by Maul, allowing Obi-Wan to take on Anakin as an apprentice.
2. Padme does not die of a broken heart and Anakin does not foresee her dying in child birth. She becomes ill and Anakin fears that she will die and seeks a way to save her life. She is still alive at the end of ROTS, but it is made clear that she is terminally ill, allowing for her to survive for an unspecified amount of time (long enough for Leia to have childhood memories) and she subsequently dies in between films.
3. No prophecy. No virgin birth. Anakin has a father who was perhaps killed and his wife (Shmi) forced into slavery. No midichlorians. Obi-Wan merely senses that the boy has an important destiny and the rest of Anakin's skill is merely the result of hard work and dedication to better himself so that he can protect others. Not because he's born with midichlorians and is Space Messiah.
4. Palpatine is not the all powerful manipulator. As I said in another thread, I wish they had pulled more from Julius Caesar's rise to power for inspiration in Palpatine's character. Julius Caesar was a Consul that retired and was given provinces in Gaul. He was broke and began illegal warfare without approval of the senate to make himself rich. He made enemies in the senate and so instead set himself up as a benefactor of the people to get the common man on his side. He was declared a traitor and then was drawn into a war with the senate faction led by Pompei and won. He became Dictator and was made Consul once again.
You can't really copy and paste this into the Star Wars universe, but instead of Palpatine being a Naboo senator that rises to be Chancellor and gets the senate to love him. I wish we had seen him rise from a relative nobody that pisses off the senate but wins the common man over in order to outmaneuver the senate politically. Like Caesar, they could have even made him something of a military leader and not just a politician. Maybe the senate rules in favor that the occupation of Naboo is legal, but Palpatine gets the Jedi and rallies the common man to disregard the Senate's ruling and illegally attacks the Trade Federation to liberate his planet and getting himself nominated senator of Naboo in TPM and then saving his ascendancy to the Chancellorship for AOTC.
5. Get rid of Count Dooku. I like Christopher Lee as an actor, but compared to the likes of Maul, Sidious and Vader, I just felt like Dooku was neither visually striking nor portrayed as being as evil as the other Sith. They could have went with the Sith Witch idea and made her as someone that manipulates the CIS from behind the scenes, rather than being a public figure.
6. AOTC wouldn't keep it vague as to who ordered the clone army. Going with the changes I would make in #4, I'd say maybe even have Palpatine order the army and have this be common knowledge in the end that he did it without the approval of the senate, but that the people love him for it because he's doing something to keep the Republic safe while the senate bickers and never raises an army of its own, instead asking the Jedi to fill that role, which ultimately pits Sidious and the people against the Senate and Jedi.
7. Slow down Anakin's turn. In OT the Dark Side is talked about as something that is addictive and that will dominate one's destiny should they fall. In the PT it seemed way to abrupt and easy that Anakin falls merely to save his wife. The bad things he does, like slaughtering the Tuskens, should have a noticeable impact on the character's behavior, causing him to be more inclined to pursue more and more evil acts in the future.
8. Don't make everyone a Darth. Darth Vader in the OT just seemed like a name. There were no other Darths. Now in the PT everyone is Darth something or another. When the Republic is fighting a bunch of Darths, wins, and then has a Darth appointed to a high ranking position within the Empire, it's conspicuous. Darth should have been left as unique to Anakin's new identity IMO and not a title that all Sith take.
9. Jar Jar could be allowed to talk like an idiot, but I don't think he should have been clumsy or dim witted. Instead the character could have talked like a simpleton and perhaps been underestimated because of it, but was actually deceptively smart and proves himself to be a capable general when given a chance.
10. Anakin does not build C3PO and C3PO does not appear in the prequels, nor does R2.
Just caught Rookies and Trespass for the first time. Excellent episodes!
I can't find my review for Rookies but I remember enjoying that one.
Rookies is still, to me, the best episode of TCW. Great story, character development, kick ass fighting and some dark moments. There should have been way more episodes like this throughout the series.
Trespass is great too, especially the first half. It's one of the few episodes where we see Anakin and Kenobi on a mission alone together. The second half was too "Star Trek" for me.