Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
Yeah, and weird. Try watching Courage the Cowardly Dog or Ren and Stimpy.
Yeah, back then shows were weird but good. Now? Granted I don't watch any of CN's or Nick's lineups, but IDK. Maybe Adventure Time is as good as some 90s shows, but I haven't watched it recently.
Praise from whom? If you're referring to your own praise, then that's perhaps accurate. Otherwise, that is inaccurate, even as a generalisation. It received great praise for its writing from numerous quarters.
Most of the comments I remember in the discussion threads were "omg it looked amazing" and there was plenty of criticism of the writing, which was typical TCW simplicity.
It seems the arc got some pretty good praise over all. Its mainly "Plan of Dissent" that's the exception.
Speaking for myself,
Visually the Umbara arc was awesome, its amazing enough it could have been used to show off your HDTV's picture. I say "could have" because I feel Umbara has been largely superceded in the graphics department in season 5 and I'm sure some of the Bonus Material will knock my socks off again. But I personally feel that arc has more going for it and Matt Michnovetz was the writer on that one. In my opinion its one of the best in season 4 rivaled only by the Rako Hardeen arc and I think it still stands up to all but the final two arcs of season 5.
Umbara could definitely be stripped down to TCW's regular monster of the day formula that was used regularly throughout its run but it built more on top of telling a story about the horrors and pointlessness of war. Krell could be looked at as simple since he didn't seem much for strategy but that was on purpose. Krell needed to be a big meaning throwing clones into razor wire death in order to drive them far enough to disobey him. How many times did Anakin do just that yet because he respects them the clones go to it smiling? Krell fit into the story as an example of a Jedi gone cold and rogue as a result of the war. I mentioned in another thread recently how I thought they did a good job with Krell's visions which were his motives.
I can find flaws in that Rex feels slightly different in "The General" compared to the other three episodes but that's my main complaint.
Adventure Time is good once in a while and may be the only really deserving show in a while after going threw Chowder and Flapjack (dear Pete.). I loathe the "Amazing World of Gumball" which was actually pitched to Adult Swim originally, Courage the Cowardly Dog was weird but didn't rely on pure randomness as its only crutch. Ren and Stimpy is just what Spumco does, its still amazing looking back Nick aired that. You ever seen their Yogi Bear short "Boo Boo Runs Wild"? Without a doubt Joe Murray is the god of weird but good shows.
Krell was interesting. He was really, really full of himself, to the point where I wondered how he was allowed to remain a Jedi...but Anakin got to stay in the Order and unlike Anakin, Krell showed the Jedi Council at least a modicum of respect. As far as his attitude towards the clones, I think many more of the Jedi viewed them as inferior, they just weren't as blatant about it as Krell was and probably didn't go so far as to view them as subhuman.
I'm a little over the idea of "Jedi going psycho due to the war" (hellooo, Barriss Offee) so in my head-canon that was just Krell's personality all along. One of the few villains in TCW who seemed threatening.
I not sure Krell would have been like that all along seeing how he would have been one of those Younglings just like in 'that' arc brought up into the order. Perhaps Krell's high casualty rates as mentioned by Fives had something to do with it. They just numbed him and made him more cold. Then at some point after that Krell started having visions and it was an easy transition from cold general just trying to do his best and losing alot of men to cold general sending these men he sees as some kinda key to the destruction of the Jedi to their death.
I know how much you love Zahn characters, AF, and Jorus C'Baoth from Outbound Flight was pretty similar to Krell. Of course, he felt everyone was inferior to Jedi, but he was no more dark than Krell was, and was also seemingly not scrutinized by other Jedi.
But yeah, haughtiness and Jedi do not combine.
Hah, must hold back another obscure Animorphs comparison.
I had made that comparison in my mind as well.
I did find C'baoth far more interesting than Thrawn or Mara, maybe because I wasn't told I was supposed to like him.
Actually I got tired of the look of Umbara and all its glowy purple plants. It was an OK arc, but another one that had more episodes than necessary.
Umbara's length kind of culminated to deliver a strong impact at the end of the final episode. It honestly had felt like we had gone through that harrowing journey on an hostile world alongside those Clones. So yeah, I agree it could have been cut down an episode, but I also believe that doing so could of potentially blunted the emotional effect.
If we're talking an arc in which I'd like to see an episode cut out from, I'm going with Onderon. Front Runners felt entirely superficial.
I think the arc format was bad in general. Two episodes on the same storyline would be OK, but when the writers got locked into a three- or four-episode arc for every damn story...the stories suffered.
Krell was an absolute bastard. It was a joy to see him killed, cut down mid-sentence by the clones he had betrayed, the clones he had openly told (to their faces) that he considered them mass-produced, subhuman pieces of filth, the clones he was continuing to taunt.
I about jumped out of my chair. "Oh YEAH! Suck on that you SOB!"
I'd say it's about tied with Rex's kill of Agruss for the prize of "best feel-good kill."
Each to their own, CT.
I liked the long arcs when there was suitable material. I think TCW needed more one off episodes peppered in like in older seasons. I think the bigger issue with the long arcs is they made the season feel so much sorter because it felt like far less was covered unlike in earlier seasons where we we're moving quickly through all kinds of topics and settings. On the otherhand I think the arc format would have slowly made TCW more linear. It seems like TCW was getting more that way as it was starting to wind down. I believe Brent Friedman recently said TCW would have ended in season 8.
Some three and four episode arcs worked because they had enough story to fill them, but there were a lot that didn't and Krell is a prime example.
But that's subjective as well. It can be argued "The General" is redundant but I tend to disagree. While Rex's character development does not feel like it jives with the rest of the arc "The General" is a necessary part to building toward the clones dissension.
The Krell arc breaks down pretty neatly into 4 parts.
1. Introduction of new characters and their struggles with their new general.
2. Krell pushes the clones to the edge against the near impossible.
3. Three clones finally rebel and turn the tide of the war.
4. Those three clones are tried for dissension and Krell betrays the Republic forcing Rex (and Dogma) to finally confront him. Conclusion.
Now yeah that didn't work for everyone because the 2nd episode still feels like the first one and its east to see where folks would get bored. But I think its probably one of the few that worked as four parts. Its hard for me to think of any other arc in TCW besides the big S5 Maul arc or the finale that needed all its parts.
But he basically threatened to decapitate a clone in the very first episode, so with that being his darkest moment until the last episode I feel there's a lot of empty space in the two episodes between them. You're right though, it is subjective.
I feel there are plenty reasonably dark moments in between. Its not all in your face like the threat of decapitation but think its pretty dark that in the two middle episodes Krell was sending clones against suicidal odds. Remember the tanks? That moment when the clones were like, "No way! how to we beat that? We are all going to die." Clone, after clone, after clone died violently waiting for Fives and Hardcase to get to the fighters all the while Krell was threatening Rex on the communicator every time he came up with an idea. That's war for you; cold, pointless, and endless darkness. Plan of Dissent was similar early in the episode when Krell wants to march the clones through missiles granted that didn't actually happen. Its the most upbeat episode of the 4 until the moment at the end when Krell darkly says they will be tried and executed.
So TCW earned two nominations in the 2013 Annie Awards, according to this TF.N article: one for "Character Animation in an Animated Television/Broadcast Production" and one for "Editorial in an Animated Television/Broadcast Production." Congratulations to Keith Kellogg and Jason W.A. Tucker for the nominations! Animation in TCW was definitely at its finest during Season 5.
To me the most intriguing aspect of the Umbara arc was the emphasis on the clones' abilities to defy direct orders and think for themselves. I feel that was the prevalent message to be taken from these episodes. It wasn't just Rex and Fives who displayed this ability, but the entire firing squad, and in the end Dogma as well. It's as if this was a continuation of the individuality shown by Cut in "Deserter" and could very well foreshadow as yet unseen clone reaction to Order 66. I also found it interesting that Appo was apparently complicit in Krell's plan to have the clones fire on each other as he is the one in the hologram who delivers the false message about the Umbarans wearing clone armor.
This is awesome news, its great to see TCW getting the recognition is deserved.
You know I truly believe that if Fives had visited Cut's farm he would have turned him in or killed him. Fives just isn't as smart and free thinking as Rex. I've always felts it puts more spotlight on Rex's ability to think for himself. It takes some pushing but Rex is able to think outside the box and he's also the only one who asked the questions, "Why?" "What's the point?". He has a righteous side and takes on multiple duties. Fives may be the great independent ARC Trooper who with his charisma got two other clones to follow high lead. One who just wants to blow things up, the other one doesn't know why he's following along except he doesn't like the general. However in the end he still does everything he does out of loyalty for the Republic and he totally worships Anakin. Rex tossed Anakin under the bus reminding his soldier of their usual Jedi General's equally crazy and often costly plans (Think of "Weapons Factory').
On Dogma, he was a broken clone by the time he execute Krell. Its pretty amazing the merciless clone who killed the helpess Umbaran and a few episodes later just kill Arguss just couldn't pull the trigger on Krell. Rex wanted to, he had the conviction, he's trembling, but he just can't make himself do it. Perhaps its part of his programming and he can't do it until he hears Palpatine give the order "Execute Order 66'. Then a switch will flip and he can do it. I hope the Order 66 arc upcoming give us some clues. Dogma was broken by the friendly fire incident so maybe he was the only one who could have pulled the trigger out of vengeance. And credit for this part goes to
@QuangoFett who explains it much better.