Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

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    Indeed. One of the things I liked about TCW is the fact that there were no references to Prophesies and Chosen Ones. In fact, I especially got irritated at the Cowboy Hatted One's talking about how much pressure Ahsoka would have in proving herself, due to her being Padawan to the Chosen One himself. You'd think the Council would want to keeping something line their MESSIAH possibly walking among their ranks under their hats, you know?
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  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    The only scene I even remotely liked in Mortis was the one in which Ahsoka and Obi-Wan are both tied up and Anakin has to choose to save one of them.

    Ouch, Anakin.
  3. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    R2D2 was the true chosen one. He saved every single protagonist character's life multiple times. He brought balance to the force.
  4. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Fans disputed the meaning of "balance," with some I recall arguing far more complicated and convoluted explanations merely than the literal balance between dark and light. And yes, some disputed whether or not Anakin was actually the Chosen One.

    But I don't know if Mortis was more for clarifying these issues to the fans, or to Anakin himself in universe. For instance, he himself begins to doubt the prophecy as his mind is preoccupied with his failures and he downplays that there is anything special about him or that he has any kind of important destiny, and Father tries to convince him that he is indeed the Chosen One. That just kind of falls apart though, because major developments in the Mortis arc don't carry over subsequently into following stories.

    Did Anakin learn to let go of his guilt? Doesn't really seem like it.

    Is Anakin now convinced that he's destined to destroy the Sith? If so, it's kind of odd that he just sat on the sidelines for the whole Maul thing and that he never changed the game plan for how exactly Anakin intended to find and take out the Sith.

    Anakin becomes evil to prevent evil. While some people think this is absolutely an idiotic turn of events, I don't mind it so much. That's a theme in Star Wars itself, and also in other properties - say for instance Star Trek: Into Darkness, the notion that to prevent evil we are in danger of becoming evil ourselves - the very evil we are trying to fight.

    In Star Trek we see this when Admiral Marcus tries to orchestrate a war with the klingons by attacking the klingons in order to justify a militarized Starfleet so that the Federation can better protect itself. Start a war in order to protect themselves.

    In Star Trek DS9, the Federation is in a war with an oppressive government and so one of the admirals tries to stage a coup and declare martial law so as to prevent the Federation from being subjugated by a foreign military. Oppress our own people to prevent being oppressed by a foreign government.

    In Revenge of the Sith, Padme even sits Anakin down and voices her concerns that the Republic is becoming the very evil that they've been trying to fight and sees that things are moving in the direction of a dictatorship - the Republic is giving up its freedoms to protect its freedom.

    In Mortis, Anakin fell to the Dark Side and adopted a might-makes-right attitude in order to combat the Dark Side evils of Palpatine.

    Where things got muddied for me is in the symbolism of the end. Anakin had no chance of killing Son without Father's suicide. Father represented balance, while his children represented the light and dark side. Daughter was killed and Son grew more powerful, skewing the balance. But then the balance had to be destroyed in order to kill the Son and restore balance? Huh?

    I liked Mortis overall, but I just felt like nothing it introduced conceptually was ever built upon.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 12, 2014
  5. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

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    The main issue with Anakin falling to the dark side the way he did is that we assume he's doing it to stop The Emperor. However, after he's joined The Son he tells Kenobi that it's the JEDI that stand in the way of peace?! Yeah, no. It doesn't add up.

    Though, if you want something to be taken from Mortis, I've heard fan theories about Ahsoka. Basically that when Daughter gave her life to Tano, the essence of one flowed into the other. In other words, Ahsoka has the Goddess of the light side within her. At the very least, it'd help to explain Ahsoka's sudden character shift from Brattsoka to Supersoka.

    (Supersoka? Wassat, she a squirt gun or sumtin? Tssss)
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  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Thanks, you just gave me another reason to hate Mortis.

    And I'm pretty sure a Supersoka was that large object that my brother used to chase me around and shoot me with on family vacations at the lake.
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  7. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    This has been interesting. My take has been that Luke is the Chosen One as well. He was the catalyst for Father's redemption and the downfall of the Sith. I think the poster above a bit has a good point. How 'balance' is taken differs from person to person.
  8. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

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    Well, initially GL stated that the Dark Side is a cancer on the Force and thus needs to be purged to restore balance. Later on, especially during the Mortis Malarky, it's stated that there is light and dark and so they must be kept in balance. Really, this is yet another example of Lucas changing his mind, regardless of whether or not it makes sense.
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  9. Mzukiller Jedi Master

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    The only scene I remotely liked was Ahsoka going to the dark side. I'm just upset that that didn't last.
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I did like Anakin hugging her when she came back. But yeah...Darksoka was appealing in a way.

    Then there was GogglesSnips. The one who will probably teach Chewie how to fix the Falcon.
  11. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Is TCW another series that viewing order is not production order? When that happens I get confused as to what order to do stuff in. I'm still hopeful for some help regarding Dooku and Tarkin please. I may see about renting their eps.
  12. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    Someone a while back posted up a big image laying out the true chronological order as a sort of table, but I can't remember what thread it was in.
  13. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    It does in the sense that the Jedi want to preserve the status quo/are unwilling to go far enough to do what is necessary from Anakin's POV.

    But even more so, I see a lot of fans completely ignore the fact that in ROTS when Anakin initially falls to the dark side, he goes off his rocker too. It's like when people don't like that Dooku is so evil and want to see him more as the sympathetic villain that is doing what he does for political ideas. That may have been why he INITIALLY goes to the Dark Side, but once there and once he starts doing evil things, it's likely that he loses sight of such goals. I don't see why Dooku should be any different than Anakin (who loses sight of the reason he fell in the first place). Same with Anakin. He pledges himself to the Sith merely to save his wife, but once he does that, he all of a sudden "sees through the lies of the Jedi," sees them as evil, is overcome with jealousy and irrationality and chokes Padme, etc.

    I don't see Mortis as any different. Son convinces Anakin that he's going to help Anakin prevent the evil of Palpatine, but once Anakin falls, he really behaves no differently than he does in ROTS.

    Son - "He's mine."
    Palpatine - "You, like your father, are now... mine!"

    The first steps may be taken for some logical reason, or the belief that the Dark Side can be used as a tool to achieve good. But once those steps are taken, the Dark Side twists their minds so that they are pretty much lost.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 12, 2014
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  14. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Dooku was noble at heart. Anakin is selfish and possessive. Everyone in SW does bad things but yet most still insist on condemning some and excusing/whitewashing others. Both Dooku and Anakin do bad acts and fall but the reasonings given differ greatly as does the approaches. Dooku is a more sympathetic character and he's more honest than the Jedi. I don't understand why so many have this Jedi are so noble complex. They are just as flawed as anyone and as arrogant too.
  15. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Isn't that kind of excusing one (Dooku) and condemning the other (Anakin)?

    I'm condemning both and they're really not that different. One wants to save his wife and the other has political ideals (Anakin did too, but they were downplayed in ROTS), so yeah, their motives for joining the Dark Side are different, but once they fall, why should Anakin devolve into insanity almost immediately after being sent to slaughter the Jedi while Dooku remain in control and remain a political idealist in control of himself? If the Dark Side is merely a tool, then it should not be too hard to be redeemed should a better tool present itself.

    If Obi-Wan was just like "dude, there's no reason to fall to the Dark Side, we'll just convince Padme to have a c-section."

    I can't see Anakin going. "Oh, OK" and going back to being a good guy.

    The Dark Side throughout the films seemed like a drug that created a positive feedback loop to reinforce further use of giving into hate and anger and negative emotion in exchange for the sense of increased power. And when someone is filled with hatred, they usually aren't particularly rational.

    The Separatists are comprised of the dissatisfied elements of the Republic. They are not some foreign entity. The Clone War was no less a civil war than the GCW.

    If Dooku were really the political idealist, he could have just led the Separatists to legit leave the Republic and defend them from the Republic. Not all of sudden wish the destruction of the Jedi (as he states in the Kadavo arc), and stage a war in which he ultimately is going to betray those that he is leading, those that agree with him that the Republic is broken by apparently surrendering to Palpatine and getting a pardon. There was no reason that he couldn't pursue his political ideals without joining the Sith and betraying his friend (if Dooku killing Sifo-Dyas still stands after the bonus content).

    He's not exactly a beacon of rationality.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 12, 2014
  16. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I was simply saying their approaches are different. I said both did bad acts.
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  17. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    I never really followed Mortis much.

    Thinking of it again and reading down this, I'm starting to wonder if Anakin fulfilled the prophecy right there on Mortis (brought balance to the Force). And then everything else he did afterwards - fighting the rest of the clone wars, impregnating his wife, turning to the dark side and becoming Darth Vader, 23 years of the Empire, bringing his son before Palpatine only to turn abandon the dark side, re-embrace the light side, kill palpatine and save his son, and then promptly die - was all irrelevant. None of that had anything to do with his bringing balance to the Force. He'd already done that on Mortis. It was perhaps the case that the prophecy was one of those "truth but not the whole truth" things. Or maybe the stuff about bringing balance and being the chosen one grabbed their attention, and the business about him becoming Darth Vader was kinda the small print, and the Jedi got so fixated on the first part, they eventually forgot about that latter part.

    "There will come a man who shall be the Chosen One, and he shall bring balance to the Force. (And then he will go on to become a Sith lord, help Sidious almost exterminate the Jedi order, and commit mass murder all over the galaxy.)"

    Something like that, perhaps.

    Or maybe not...
  18. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    There was another discussion going on, I think in the saga forum that was discussing the concept of "destiny" in the Star Wars universe, and IMO it is one of the most overly used and misused words in the saga.

    Words like prophecy and destiny suggest something WILL happen. When you read something like the Bible and the prophecies mentioned within, you either make the choice whether or not you believe them in the first place, and then if you do, the belief is that these things have or are going to come to pass. Not "oh, well the may or may not happen, because always in motion is the future, and the messiah might not come."

    If you believe in the judeo-Christian messiah, then you believe that he's either come already, or that he has yet to come. You don't say, "well, I believe the prophecy of the messiah, but always in motion is the future, and so maybe he chose not to come after all." That defeats the point of a prophecy...

    In behind the scenes content, Lucas talks about destiny and the prophecy of the Chosen One as something that may or may not come to pass because of some belief that everyone has a destiny, but that we can choose to follow it or not.

    Which IMO goes against the very meaning of these words.

    Anakin is either the Chosen One, or he's not. It's either his destiny to destroy the Sith, or it's not. Not "oh, well you're the Chosen One and it's your destiny to destroy the Sith, but you can choose not to, if you want."

    A prophecy is a divinely inspired foretelling of what is to happen. And destiny is a predetermined and necessary outcome.

    Lucas just seemed to make up his own weird connotations for these words, that are incompatible with what they actually mean, which IMO makes the prophecy itself incredibly bizarre and not actually adhering to the real meaning of what a prophecy is.

    I mean, Palpatine and Anakin could also sense the future, via the Force. That essentially fits the bill of a divinely inspired foretelling of what is to happen. Are they prophets too? Yoda says to be careful when sensing the future, because it's always subject to change. If that's the case, then why the hell are the Jedi even following some kind prophecy of the Chosen One, if it's always possible that particular future will never come to pass since the future was always in motion?

    I think the EU implied that Palpatine recognized Anakin as the Chosen One, which IMO is beyond asinine. Why be a Sith if you believe a prophecy of one that is destined to destroy you? It would make more sense for Palpatine to write off the Chosen One prophecy as nothing more than nonsense.

    Basically, it just makes my head heart because Lucas uses words to mean the exact opposite of what they actually mean. And IMO the concept of the prophecy was remarkably stupid because of the new definitions Lucas applies to these words. The moment Anakin started to deviate from the prophecy, logically the Jedi should think that he is thus NOT the Chosen One, not that he is but is choosing not to follow the foretold inevitable outcome (what destiny really means).
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 12, 2014
  19. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    I've long wondered, ever since sitting in the theater in 2005 and seeing that LAAT/i scene where Mace and Yoda basically agree the prophecy was misread, that Lucas changed his mind about where he was going with that plot halfway through the prequels. I think he was originally working off of his old 70s concepts, what with the "Son of Suns" plotline, but ended up focusing on politics in the prequels instead.

    Were we supposed to think the Jedi's downfall was due to their futilely waiting for the coming Messiah? That would make sense, if we ever saw that occur. Only Qui-Gon cared. The others were just sort of "meh, I'm gonna hang in the Senate and talk srs bsns politics."

    So essentially, the Chosen One plotline fell flat. Sure, you could say Vader brought balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine, but... is that even all that satisfying? Was the Chosen One concept ever used other that an excuse for Qui-Gon to bring Anakin to Coruscant? Wouldn't he have done it anyway if Anakin had an unusually high midi-chlorian count, or otherwise showed an unnatural affinity to the Force?

    Mortis could have been used to amend this. It could have put the prophecy to some real use. Instead it just sort of... fell flat again.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    The discussion about destiny in the Saga forum, and other such discussions like it, have made my head hurt.

    If Lucas was implying that it was Anakin's destiny to destroy the Sith but he had a choice about fulfilling that destiny, he was trying to have it both ways.

    Destiny to me implies a lack of choice. If X is your destiny, X will happen to you, one way or another.

    Vader was full of **** when he told Luke that turning to the Dark Side was his "destiny," but it was pretty obvious where he was going with that. "You might as well turn now, because eventually you'll turn, regardless of your efforts to prevent it. There is no fighting destiny/fate/whatever."

    Anakin being "destined" to destroy the Sith takes away from Anakin's choice to finally do the right thing and destroy Palpatine in ROTJ. Not satisfying at all. That's why I hate the prophecy.
  21. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

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    Fickle Fickle GL, I think its a very strong possibility that this was the case - but he was clever enough to not say it explicitly so that it could be debated by SW fandom for decades...But GL does say in the ROTS Special features (The Chosen One doc.) That he was indeed the chosen one - redeemed by his son. Ultimately, I think the whole Chosen One prophecy was a way of basically retconning the main character of the SW saga. In the OT, it was Luke...then GL makes it Anakin in the PT and tries to say that Anakin was actually the protagonist of the OT too because of this "prophecy." Ridiculous.
  22. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    Palpatine was a pragmatist, and a firm believer in the backup plan. If the Jedi claimed to have a Chosen One who would one day destroy the Sith, Palpatine's going to take interest, if only as a matter of self interest. If the Chosen One of prophecy has apparently been found, he's going to take steps to ensure he doesn't fulfill his Sith-destroying destiny. And what better way than to corrupt the Jedi's fabled champion and turn him into a Sith Lord subservient to Palpatine himself? The Jedi are denied their savior, while Palpatine acquires an incredibly powerful pawn.
  23. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I'm saying that if you take words like destiny and prophecy at their real meaning, then Sidious CANNOT stop Anakin from completing his Sith-destroying destiny. He only can do that because Vader has a choice, which doesn't really fit into the concept of destiny, but because Lucas uses neat sounding words to mean things other than their definitions, his explanations just serve to confuse me.

    Palpatine might see that there is allegedly a Chosen One, recognize he's powerful and turn him to the Dark Side for the double whammy of having a powerful apprentice and mocking the Jedi Order, but this would not require him to believe that Anakin is the Chosen One or that the Sith are destined to be destroyed. For him to actually believe that Anakin is the Chosen One, or believe that the Chosen One is real, would make Palpatine an idiot.

    Plus how does it work if he actually prevents Anakin from ever destroying the Sith? That would only show that Anakin was not the Chosen One of the prophecy, since he didn't actually do what the prophecy said he'd do. That would leave the prophecy unfulfilled, would that not possibly mean that the Chosen One had yet to come and that Anakin was in fact not it?
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 12, 2014
  24. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    But the prophecy only said he was to bring balance to the Force. The Jedi council got it into their heads that this meant "destroy the Sith" but that was only their interpretation, and that's not what the prophecy actually said.

    It's entirely possible that his run in with the Son, Daughter and Father of Mortis is when he brought balance to the Force.

    Or perhaps not... since Darth Maul, who became insane before the Mortis incident, and then had his sanity restored after it, immediately sensed that the Force felt out of balance. Presumably this means it wasn't out of balance at the time of the Naboo crisis, when he was last seen sane. This implies that perhaps the Force was balanced, and the events of the Mortis arc, with the Father and Daughter dying and the Son escaping out into the universe, unbalanced it. Which makes one wonder what the Jedi thought of the "bring balance" prophecy before Mortis, since the Force was in balance at that point.

    The whole thing's a mess.

    I wouldn't be surprised actually if Ahsoka Tano has some key part to play yet in this thing. The Son was voiced by Sam Witwer as was Galen "Starkiller" Marek. So maybe there is supposed to be some connection there? Maybe the Son possessed Marek, at least for a while. Maybe he possessed the original Marek, but not the clone. Or some of his essence was in him somehow, I don't know. Of course, his sister the Daughter died, but poured her life-force into the dead Ahsoka who had just been Force-drained to death by the Son. But was that all she poured in? Maybe it was her essence or some part of her "soul" or some such as well as just life force or life energy or whatever. Of course, the interesting thing is that Ahsoka is the apprentice of Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One... and Galen Marek, who I speculated above may have something to do with the Son, is also the apprentice of Anakin Skywalker.

    So is there some big puzzle ultimately going on involving the Son and Daughter of Mortis, Anakin Skywalker, and his apprentices Galen Marek and Ahsoka Tano?

    The Mortis crowd had some epic Tutaminis abilities, grabbing lightsabers with their bare hands and such. Like Satele Shan did in that TOR cutscene. Maybe some of that ability was also transfused out of Daughter into Ahsoka. Even if she (Ahsoka) wasn't aware of it. There was that incident with the droid gunship cannon somehow failing to blow her arm off.

    Wheeee! The mess gets bigger!

    I agree with the above posters. It makes my head hurt. IMHO it would be much better if they had never introduced the whole Chosen One idea. No special prophecy. No immaculate conception of Anakin - Shmi was a poor slave, they could just have said she was... making a little money on the side, if you know what I mean, and thus doesn't know who out of her many customers was the father. Qui-Gon takes him anyway because the boy's unusually strong Force-potential (the highest on record) is reason enough in itself. This high potential doesn't indicate he's some special prophesied person, just that he has the highest Force potential on record. Bound to happen at some point. Yoda would probably think him too old, but Qui-Gon isn't deterred by that, because he's ****ing Batman Qui-Gon Jinn, and he doesn't give a stuff about Yoda and his sycophantic yes-men on the council. Hell, he probably thinks Yoda is acting out of jealousy or fear of threat to his power, since this guy has greater Force-potential than he has. He starts Anakin's initial training, opens his mind to the Force. It doesn't take long, Obi-Wan did it with Luke in less than a day in ANH. Then Maul waxes him on Naboo, and the Jedi, realizing that Anakin has been awakened to the Force, decide they kinda have to train him now, and he is apprenticed to Obi-Wan.

    He grows up, becomes a powerful Jedi knight, Palpatine realized his massive Force-potential and decides to try to win him over as a Sith because of it. It works, he turns him, then Order 66, and the Empire, and eventually Leia and the DS plans, Luke, Yavin, the DS destruction, discovery of his son and pursuit of him, Endor, his redemption and death, the Ewoks dance, end credits, and it just works. None of this stupid prophecy and chosen one mess.
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Jan 12, 2014
  25. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Indeed. To further add to this, I'd like to think that Palpatine must have desired a means to thwart the prophecy by creating a paradox; if he could successfully turn the Chosen One into a Sith, then there would be two outcomes (in his mind): Anakin would become a Sith Lord that one day challenges his Master, and 1) Palpatine would kill Anakin, overturning the prophecy once and for all, or 2) if Anakin managed to kill him (permanently), the Sith legacy would still live on under Darth Vader. The reason being that Palpatine has no reason to really believe that a Sith Lord that's turned completely to the dark side could ever return to the light and be redeemed, hence Lord Vader would remain a Sith and carry on the Banite legacy. He wasn't aware of any real precedent based on history for a Sith Lord to turn back to the light...even Darth Gravid's attempt to reject the Sith legacy and use the light side resulted in his apparent madness. As a result Palpatine never took into account the possibility that Vader would be redeemed and turned back to the Light prior to his death, thus ensuring the destruction of the Sith in RotJ. Naturally, in his characteristic overconfidence, Palpatine was certain #2 would never come to pass, or if it did, he'd have a backup (Dark Empire clones).

    I think that is a reasonable explanation for why Sidious was so willing to risk himself just to turn Anakin, perhaps even more so than the fact that Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi in terms of Force potential.

    For those interested in learning more, the first dozen posts or so cover it nicely in this Saga thread.
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