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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

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  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I just got a look at those trope justifications. Looks like a ridiculous excuse to try to categorize people into neat little boxes instead of, as CA said, just leaving them to like what they like and hate what they hate.

    Villains being more interesting does not need a trope unless it's a "lookie here, tastes vary, whodathunkit" trope.

    My own favorite characters fall pretty evenly on the hero and villain side, but none of them can be described as "humorless and boring." That description could also fit heroes or villains.

    Heero_Yuy : that's just what Ventress does. She radiates sexiness. :D
     
  2. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2011
    I've always thought of tropes as simply labeling cliches. I just enjoy things and have a high tolerance for the lame and cliche when it really is noticeable. My favorite tropes of the Xanatos Gambit and Lampshading.
     
    cwustudent and Iron_lord like this.
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Yup- the site exists to categorise them - not to justify them.

    Cliche's the term usually used for an overused trope. However, all fiction has tropes - even fiction that goes to some length to avoid cliches.

    Some tropes listed there are more "of fan behaviour" than "of the fiction" - like the ones I mentioned.
     
    Revanfan1 and Mia Mesharad like this.
  4. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    Ugh, TVTropes.. I just don't like it. And not in a "It's so addicting" way.
     
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  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    "I like what I like" ;)
     
  6. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    ^Is that a trope?.. No, TVTropes stuff just seems.. I dunno, in-your-face and trying too hard to be funny. "Nothing is original! See how clever we are for noticing!" Meh.. Maybe if it was a more serious place I'd think different. Maybe. I prefer "archetypes" I guess.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Not intended to be, in this case.

    Some of the articles are better than others - but I usually find most fun to read.
     
  8. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    Reading through the tropes and examples... That's just an awful website, IMO. Asserting that "many people" or "a lot of people" see something a certain way.

    In Alien 3 all of the protagonists outside of Ripley and like two others were criminals. This website just throws around the assertion that "a lot of people" couldn't get behind this or rooted for the alien to kill them.... As a huge fan of the franchise, I'm aware of all the (undeserved, IMO) hate that Alien 3 gets, but not once have I heard anyone, let alone "a lot of people" say that it's because the antagonists are criminals. That was kind of the point, that they were all people that committed crimes, were sent to a prison planet and pretty much forgotten about, found religion and every last one of them (save one) dies to prevent the alien from getting off planet. A more sympathetic and redeeming sacrifice IMO compared to something like Vader sacrificing himself for his son.

    Nor do I think it's wrong to like the villains. Especially in superhero properties, they are often way more colorful and "cool" than the heroes. Star Wars, I would say follows this as well. Luke, Han and Leia are just people. Vader is a badass cyborg-samurai. Obi-Wan is a guy in robes with a "laser sword." Jango Fett is a guy clad in armor with dual pistols, a jet pack, a flamethrower, etc.

    I don't know if this necessarily leads to rooting for the Empire, but it makes the heroes definitely seem lacking compared to them, which adds to them being a credible threat.

    I do somewhat agree with the rooting for Lex Luthor example, but that's because IMO the villain needs to be more powerful than the hero. He/she needs to be the threat that the hero needs to pull out all of the stops in order to thwart. And for something like Luke and the Emperor, this works. For the Fantastic Four and Dr. Doom, this works. For the X-Men and Magneto, this works. But for Superman and Lex Luthor... While ultimately I think Luthor is a great villain at the end of the day, he is a more difficult sell, since he's just a smart guy going up against Mr. Invulnerability. So, it's hard to not help but root for him. There's even a miniseries called Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, which pretty much shows the struggle from Luthor's perspective, and while initially they almost sell the character as a good guy, trying to defeat Superman because he believes Superman weakens humanity, by the end we see the despicable lengths he goes to to try and do little more but discredit Superman in the eyes of the world. I mean, yeah you pretty much are rooting for Luthor to some extent, but that by no means implies that the reader ceases to care what happens to the heroes or devolves to a "hatedom" of Superman. That's a gross over simplification and TV Tropes does little more than put me off of their assertions as little more than baseless categorizations justified with the flimsiest of examples protected by assertions that "many people" agree.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Well said.

    And LOL "many people". Trying to put fans into little convenient boxes that way is lazy at best.

    I've met a lot of Star Wars and superhero franchise fans both on and offline, and no two were exactly alike--because no two people are exactly alike.
     
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  10. Heero_Yuy

    Heero_Yuy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    On the subject of TCW and Tarkin, I don't see the issue with how he's been portrayed. He's a jerk yes, but so was he in the original film. I didn't see him being overtly evil in TCW. Sure he's a jerk when interrogating Ahsoka, but he's just doing his job and, objectively speaking, had every reason in the world to suspect her.
     
  11. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Tarkin was brilliant in TCW; he's just portrayed as a stereotypical power hungry authoritarian.
     
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  12. Watto

    Watto Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 1998
    Yes, my comment from earlier related to how that site observed certain types of extreme fan reactions to certain shows/movies. I'm often bewildered in how certain folks react so differently to shows than I do, so I try to understand what perspective they're coming from. But the site is definitely just good for a laugh rather than taking too seriously, it's better to get perspective from the fan themselves even if you can't see how they came to that point of view.
     
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  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That was the idea, yes.
     
  14. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I'd guess most here very likely have no issue with how Tarkin was done in either place as most seem to think his purpose is simply to be awful. I don't. Nor, do I see Takin as most do and never shall. I certainly don't agree with others assessments of his character in this thread. For me Tarkin shall never fit the term 'jerk'.
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    What's your assessment of his character? And what scenes in the movie (and the series) led you to assess him that way?
     
  16. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I've tried to explain before and you refused to listen. Are you willing to now because I don't like wasting time.
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I haven't seen a detailed description of Tarkin's character before - but I'm willing to read it.
     
  18. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Iron_lord: You asked how I read his character. Certainly not as blatantly awful and seemingly black as most here that's for sure.

    To me, Tarkin is a very internal creature. He’s a thinker. He needs and desires order. He’s a loner, isolated. His balance is delicate. I believe his mind was very keen and finely focused. Likely on military strategy. It makes sense to him, thus is an anchor. He’s a man of action but he is distinctly not a warrior. I think overly engaging with individual sapients would make his inner balance go haywire. Too much stimuli to contend with.

    He likewise does not speak much. Tarkin seems to operate mostly via observation and he seems to crave efficiency. He doesn't like contention between those under him. It frustrates him and slows the likelihood of the goals being met. Though misguided Tarkin genuinely believes that rule through fear will lead to order.

    He dislikes dishonesty. Again it's a roadblock to achieving his goal but it also shows he does have positive traits. He is NOT violent as an individual in the least. He's not even armed. I've heard the 'he's on a superweapon, why would he?' speil already and I soundly reject it. Thoughout the film Tarkin displays uncertainty and fear, seeking assurance from Vader.

    As to the being armed being out of character: Tarkin likes to tease, to play a bit. To study those that draw his attention. He may be isolated but he is likewise very intelligent. I think he may find trying to get a raise out of others when he feels secure if himself, intriguing. However, I think Tarkin considers violence without a specific purpose pointless. It would likely also offend his sensibilities and need for a bit of an antiseptic approach to conflict. It’s messy. Tarkin is a man that shows both the great power and the great folly of a sharp mind.

    He's snide. He doesn't trust or believe as the Jedi do.He dares have differing views to the supposed 'heroes'. These things do not make me equate him to 'awful' or 'villain'. I do not agree with some things he did including Alderaan but it's not my right to condemn a man only his actions. There's a difference.

    Where do I get my cues as to how I read, Tarkin? Lagrely his body language. Sir Peter Cushing is one of the most inherently emotionally transparent men I've ever seen in my life and you bet I think his performer informs the part.

    I do not need to present positive proof in order to hold my views despite how you and several here act. Besides, perceptions aren't facts. They can't be proven, only explained. If you and the majority of this board choose to persist in hating Tarkin that's fine. Won't change the fact I empathise with him and see him differently a bit.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He certainly dislikes being the victim of dishonesty, at least. Though he's willing to use it himself when it serves his purpose:

    "You're far too trusting …"
     
  20. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    It's simply a warning that trust caries consequences.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He convinces Leia that her planet won't be destroyed if she "names the system". Then destroys it.

    Good example of "how to be dishonest without actually telling an untruth".

    The idea of him being exceptionally intelligent fits his Wookieepedia entry at least - as does his belief that his doctrine will bring order.
     
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  22. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Like I said I don't need to justify my views to hold them, Sir. You choose not to listen. I depart.
     
  23. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    I don't think a lot of people here hate Tarkin, just a good amount view him as a villain, and most have good reason for doing so, just as you have just as good reasons to view him in a better light than most. I always say we're all entitled to our opinions, and respect is a two-way street. I for one love to see such different viewpoints among the people here. It really spices the place up and generates discussion we might never have had otherwise.

    Anyway, if you're interested, CA, there is one novel that really delves into Tarkin's character, and that would be Death Star. It partially adapts some scenes from the movie into his point of view, and gives a really interesting take on the character that I think you would appreciate. It was also written before TCW ever aired, so it doesn't take his actions from the show into account.

    But still, to quote the man himself, "This bickering is pointless". Well, not pointless, but I think we all need to take things down a few notches before things escalate and feelings get hurt.
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Actually, I was saying that I agreed with the idea that Tarkin is intelligent, and genuinely believes that what he does will bring order.
     
  25. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    No, thanks, Todd. I already tried Death Star and threw it away. Well, at least you acknowledge there is cause for not everyone having the same view, thanks. Tarkin equaling black seems pretty universal here and I simply don't buy it. BTW, I'm with you I too like differing POVs because I like learning. I wasn't bickering either simply explaining that people disagreeing won't sway my perceptions.

    Thank you, Iron Lord. I sincerely hope we can simply agree that our perceptions on Tarkin largely differ and the tension may ease. I am not seeking conflict simply to be heard and understood.