Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. Kualan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 4

    Oh really? I -thought- I saw the back of his head in one of the S6 episodes! In the Senate corridors - whoever it was was definitely a new model and seemed to have Zar's signature beard. Sounds like it was definitely him after all.
  2. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 4
    I agree but what if he servived.
  3. Darth Wookiee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2013
    star 2
    He was in ROTS.
  4. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 4
    What.
  5. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 4
    Do we know what 99 number was was it ct-99?
  6. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Okay, yeah, just tried to get into S5 of TCW but it didn't work. Oh, well. Back to the aspects I do like.
  7. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Echo is a TCW creation.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Mar 23, 2014
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think Cody is the only clone who wasn't.
  9. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Ponds was retconned to appear in AOTC, and Bly appeared in ROTS. Appo appeared in the Umbara arc but wasn't given any focus or development.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 23, 2014
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  10. WampaSwamp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2011
    star 1
    Appo was in ROTS too, sans arrow on helmet. Oddball was in the beginning of the movie, and Gree was killed by Yoda.
  11. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 4
    I found this weird why did Krell at the at the start of the arc refer to clones by number but by the end by name.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    At the beginning, he was letting the clones know how insignificant they were and at the end, he was trolling and mocking them.

    Either that or the writing team forgot all the clones' numbers between the beginning and the end of the script. Or forgotten the clones' insignificance. Or something.
  13. Kualan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 4
    Let's be honest, we know which is probably more likely.
  14. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 4
    Do any of you wish we would have seen another clone deserter or traitor.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4

    I could take it or leave it.

    I was most interested in seeing clones from other templates and/or recruits being introduced - given the Season 2 premiere established that the Jango DNA was yielding an increasing number of defective clones.

    And so there were several things I had hoped to see.

    1. Introduction of recruits and how the Jango clones would react to someone that wasn't one of their "brothers." Would they be horrified at watching their "brothers" die to see them replaced by normal people? Would they come to see these natural born individuals as "brothers [in arms]" too? Likewise, how would a natural born soldier react to taking orders from someone grown in a lab? I thought there was a lot of things that could be done there.

    2. Introduce a rival facility to Kamino. With some wealthy exec approaching Palpatine, explaining that his facilities are superior to Kamino's and that he can grow a clone in far less time. Perhaps with Kamino feeling threatened that they are going to lose the Republic's business and lose what political leverage they have. They could have then gone the route of Kamino even considering jumping sides in the war and supplying Jango clones to the CIS as a bargaining chip for power within the CIS.

    3. Get into the clones' heads beyond "we love the Republic!" Show whether or not they are cognizant of their conditioning and if they begin to ask questions like why do they love the Republic so much, if they've never really lived a single day of their life experiencing the freedom and joys of the average Republic citizen. Do any of them question what exactly they are fighting for, or care that they are spoken of as property? Or just as Japanese Samurai went through a period of disillusionment when the warfare that characterized 16th century Japan ended, leading to a decline in the demand for warriors, and forcing Samurai to figure out what to do with their lives, do the clones have any anxiety of what will happen when the war ends?

    4. For someone like Padme who mentions anti-slavery laws in TPM, the clone army must be a really apparent stain on the Republic's honor. The Order 66 arc even showed that the clones were blatantly spoken of as property. They are human beings being sold, just as a slave, to serve in an army and fight for a government that they are not a part of. What does Padme think of that? What does Bail think of that? Shouldn't they try to do something to stop it? And most interestingly of all, IMO, what does Anakin think of that, when he sees someone like Rex get sold into service to fight and die, while he as a child was sold to Watto and forced to participate in races in which he could be killed at any given time? Does he have an opinion?

    I was very much disappointed by the Manchurian Candidate trigger (which also just raises the question for me as to whether or not they are forever altered into hating the Jedi, or if like Tup, does it eventually wear off with the clones completely clueless as to what happened and horrified when they learn what they've done?

    Going off #3, I actually had hoped for a clone conspiracy in which they become cognizant of their position as slaves, become angry at the Jedi for how they are treated, and are horrified of what will become of them when the war is over. Palpatine - as Sidious - could have then entered the picture, contacting the clone commanders and creating a conspiracy in which he guarantees them that in the New Order they will forever have a place in the military as it expands into the furthest reaches of the galaxy, eliminates the Jedi that had condemned them to a life of slavery, and assures them that the military will have an elevated position in society, and that the clones will be treated like human beings in charge of maintaining the order, not as slaves fighting to die for corrupt Jedi and Senators.

    I just think such a voluntary conspiracy would have given far more weight to that moment when Palpatine finally says "Commander Cody, the time has come. Execute Order 66." Showing that the clones were not helpless victims, but rather saw themselves as victims and voluntarily decided to join in the New Order, perfectly aware of what they were doing. Turning Order 66 into something akin to a massive slave revolt, with Palpatine goading them into action and playing on their insecurities while the corrupt Senate was content to let these cloned humans fight and die for them while they sat in the Senate and squabbled among themselves for political advantage.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 23, 2014
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  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Absolutely not.

    Tarados' scenarios would have been interesting though.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Mar 23, 2014
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  17. Jedi Knight Bane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2014
    I like number 4 a lot It would have been interesting to see Anakin talk about that.
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  18. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    @TaradosGon, are you sure you don't read much EU? Because I know you keep saying that, but the points you outlined comprise a veritable checklist of things that've been spoken to, at some length at that, in the Clone Wars-era literature. Almost like you'd submitted an ask sheet a few years back. :p
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  19. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    Funny, I more or less asked him the same thing once. :p
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  20. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Given that the bridge crew of the early Imperial Venator-class ship observing the Death Star's construction is entirely non-clone whereas TCW made a point of putting clone crewmen in this role, I'm fairly certain that this would have been delved into at some point in the later seasons. The transition taking place would have been interesting to see.

    The Deserter, The Hidden Enemy and the end of Carnage of Krell demonstrate that some of them do indeed think deeply about all of this. Slick recognises the property issue and questions what he's fighting for, seeing the CIS as a worthier side to fight for. Cut Lawquane recognises these issues, and he debates with Rex the virtues of life outside the GAR relative to life within it. He questions whether Rex's fanatical loyalty is actually what he believes or the result of indoctrination. Rex asserts that it's what he believes, meaning his loyalty has gone beyond the indoctrination that inculcated it. Missing in Action, conversely, demonstrates that many of them simply don't care. Gregor proudly gives up mere indentured labour for a violent death in combat. There's a lot of nuance to this portrayal of the clones' loyalty and attitudes.

    At the end of Carnage of Krell, Fives and Rex make clear their anxiety of what happens when the war ends.

    Why would Palpatine rely on a voluntary conspiracy? Such things are unreliable. If it's possible, it's far better for him to keep Order 66 compliance assured from the earliest stages.

    Who would be in on this conspiracy? The commanders? The officers? The enlisted ranks? If it's voluntary, what would happen to clones who refuse to take part? Also, what would keep the conspiracy out of the Jedi Order's attention? TCW's explanation for Order 66 made sense because it made clear why the clones are worth a damn to Palpatine. If he has to convince them to voluntarily take part in a conspiracy against the Jedi, then they aren't worth much more than regular soldiers to him. This is something which I was glad to see TCW establish.

    This is on top of the rather fanatical loyalty, borne of indoctrination, which we see demonstrated throughout TCW. Their compliance with Order 66 is eased along and ultimately assured by this new genetics/programming explanation, but their indoctrination remains a strong component of their portrayal in their wider AOTC-ROTS arc. There's no reason to think they'd be horrified at what they do. Tup's programming is explicitly stated to be faulty, and is seen in the context of there being no official declaration of the Jedi being traitors against the Republic, while he himself has demonstrated no qualms about the need to kill traitorous Jedi. Meanwhile, the clones we see throughout ROTS remain level-headed and committed to what they do in the long term. We see Appo pulling a gun on Bail Organa just for asking questions, Cody rounding up Pau'an prisoners, and the AT-RT drivers coldly assessing Wookiee fatalities with the implication they killed them themselves. These would not be a result of a temporary urge to kill Jedi. We see Thire (who has a not antagonistic history with Yoda) and his shocktroopers unflinchingly follow Palpatine's orders on both Coruscant and Mustafar, with the latter instance having nothing to do with killing Jedi but merely recovering the body of an ally and superior.

    They're perfectly aware of what they're doing throughout most of the latter third of ROTS. What we see Tup do is not exactly what a clone executing Order 66 for real would do.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Mar 23, 2014
  21. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I'm not saying that I think the idea is better from an in universe perspective. By all means, with organic chips and what not, Palpatine should have done things exactly as he had. But from a narrative perspective, I think that's an awful story telling decision that no matter what the Jedi do, no matter how well they treat the clones, no matter how much identity the clones develop, that it can be all undone by an "I win" chip that Palpatine had put into the clones from the very beginning. It makes things too easy for Palpatine. And when you tell a story in which the villain already has the pieces laid out to win right when it begins, it's not really interesting IMO.

    Palpatine spent the entire war playing the politicians and playing the Jedi. But he he can completely overwrite the free will of the clones with a single command. It's too easy. I wish Lucas had never introduced the concept of organic chips or even implied that such an option was open to Palpatine. As with every one else, I wish that Palpatine had to play the clones as well.

    I would think the clone commanders and admirals. Order 66 was not shown to go to anyone but the commanders in ROTS, and then with a single command of "blast him," Cody could get the other clones to turn on the Jedi. Cody received the order, Gree received the order, and Neyo received the order while the clone next to him doesn't react in any way as though he's receiving any kind of transmission. Yet with a simple nod, both Gree and Neyo seem to relay the command to their subordinates. Plus the clones start calling Palpatine "my Lord."

    I mean "voluntary" in the sense that the clones want to participate to eliminate the Jedi. Not in the sense that Palpatine says "hey, if you want to help out, cool, but if not, that's OK." That the clones are perfectly aware of what is happening and going along with it voluntarily, rather than having some override switch in their brains. That they would be manipulated into a coup by Palpatine, perhaps in some small part due to the Jedi. Since the Jedi are the ones that have opened the clones' eyes over the course of 3 years, shown them what it's like to be treated like a human and not like a number, and spoken of their ideals and what they are fighting for, which would create a greater sense of consciousness among the clones and the desire to change their position.

    It wouldn't matter if the Jedi found out or not. Palpatine would have either contacted the clones as "Darth Sidious" or through a subordinate. He would have the same layers protecting his identity that he always has. So, if someone contacts the clones about a coup and the clones go running to the Jedi, the Jedi are going to see that someone hacked into their comms, report this to the Senate and Palpatine, and what's he going to do about it?

    But I would think that with how fanatically loyal the clones are to each other, that if politicians like Padme are pushing for the end of cloning (essentially condemning millions of unborn clones that are no longer needed and that the Kaminoans aren't going to waste their time on, if there is no buyer), coupled with the clones' own dissatisfaction with their position, and finally the anxiety of what happens in peace time, that the clones would fight to ensure their position. To ensure future clones, to ensure they they are not slaves to the Jedi and Senate, and to ensure that they will always have a place in a military structure. I would think that a perfectly believable story could have been told in which most of the commanders agree to go along with this, especially if the alternative is seeing millions of their brothers aborted and shown to be expendable human beings that the Senate never really cared about, and that can all die when they are no longer needed and nobody would shed a tear.

    The clones took a lot of crap from Krell, but it was sending them to kill their own brothers that pushed the clones into being willing to commit what they thought to be treason.

    The clone journey would mirror Anakin's. Anakin falls to the Dark Side to save Padme, while the clones would have been duped to betray the Jedi and do horrible things (like kill Wookiees and arrest Pau'ans, as you say), on the promise that this is what they must do to free themselves and save their brothers.

    "Lord" is an address that Vader and Palpatine received as Sith. I think in the past when I've brought it up, some have pointed out that Palpatine was referred to as Lord while Chancellor, but this was never shown in the films or TCW. He was either "your Excellency" and I think in Senate Crisis, a clone merely refers to him as "Sir."

    So, if Sidious had made contact with the clone commanders and had corrupted them with assurances that their brothers are going to die as the war is winding down and that the Republic and Jedi have betrayed them, but that if they join him, all of their troubles will go away as he will create an Empire in which there will always be a place for the clones, then I think that makes things more tragic, when exchanges like:

    "Execute Order 66."
    "It will be done, my Lord."

    occur.

    As opposed to a Manchurian Candidate biochip.

    I think the totality of my exposure to the EU is:

    Video Games (only including ones with any kind of measurable story)

    Republic Commando; KOTOR; KOTOR 2; Rogue Squadron; TOR (Consular, Agent, Trooper and Bounty Hunter story lines); Shadows of the Empire; Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight; Jedi Outcast; Jedi Academy; Empire At War; Forces of Corruption; Starfighter; Jedi Starfighter; Obi-Wan (so bad that I can't help but love it); Battlefront II

    Novels

    Shadows of the Empire; Tales of the Bounty Hunters; I, Jedi

    Comics

    Star Wars: Empire #1; Dawn of the Jedi, vol. 1; Star Wars (2013) about the first 8 issues

    Nothing beyond that aside from excerpts of novels here and there. I get the greatest exposure to the games, and when it comes to the written works, I prefer the comics, though they are too expensive for how quickly they can be read through. And between my interest in DC as well, I'll go through bouts of trading off between buying DC Comics or Darkhorse (or none). So I don't keep up to date with all the current releases. With DC it's a lot easier to jump right back into a property, even if I've missed 10 issues, with Star Wars it seems more difficult.

    I also bought TOTJ: The Golden Age of the Sith, but I honestly was unable to get into it and it sits in my digital library at Darkhorse.com, unfinished.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 24, 2014
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  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Senator Padme does get addressed as "my lady" a few times though.
  23. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I see what you mean in that Lord and Lady are pretty much equivalent forms of medieval address. But I just find it conspicuous that Lord was exclusively used in regards to Sith Lords in the films and TCW, while Palpatine (outside of his Sith persona) and male senators were never really addressed as much. Padme was also a former Queen and thus might retain the title, while Palpatine was usually just referred to as Excellency, Sir, or simply Chancellor.

    I suppose that kings in AGFFA might carry the title of Lord, like perhaps Katuunko (sp?) did. But the only Lord title that I can see associated with Palpatine is that of being a Lord of the Sith, not Lord of a territory.
  24. Watto Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1998
    star 4
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  25. Darth Wookiee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2013
    star 2
    The order 66 Arc was good for FIves, but they should of left it alone.