Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    Where exactly did I say that those who do not "cite" book passages are wrong, or that those who do are automatically right? I never said that. In addition, I meant that the book passages that Iron_lord posted were the ones that proved the existence of an ethical issue.

    OK. apparently I am unable to get my message across to you. I do NOT excuse the Senate or Palpatine for the use of the clone army. Expecting them to do it is one thing, not condemning them for their actions is another. The former does not lead to the latter.

    Huh...forgot about that:oops:.
    Still, though, I find it hard to believe that an act such painful and horrendous as this is accepted in the GFFA.

    OK then. That is your opinion and I respect it.

    In my opinion, the fault is shared between those who allowed it's use and those who did not protest about the continuation of its use for nearly 4 years.
    But, I have repeated this over and over again in previous posts.

    I always found it reasonable for people to try and find faults (regardless of whether those are true or not) in people that are as unrealistically portrayed as the Jedi.
    The reason I am far more interested in the Sith, is because I find them much more down to earth than the Jedi.
    I may be called a cynic for this, but IRL, the world hardly consists of any people that have such high moral values like the Jedi do. That tone of unrealism is further enhanced by their portrayal in the movies, as well as some episodes of TWC.
    As you argued that Filoni deliberately smeared the Jedi in the last episodes of Season 5, I believe that GL has deliberately vilified the Sith in every movie and lionized the Jedi.
    All because the average viewer wants to see the "good guy" win and the "bad guy" to lose, in such a simplified way, so that he/she does not feel any remorse towards the "bad guy".

    Thankfully, Star Wars books, comics and videogames have not followed this course of action and have shown more reasonable and less emotionless "villains", as well as more realistic "heroes".
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 3, 2014
  2. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Well said, Sir. Particularly your last point. =D= That's how I feel about the Jedi, Sith, and Empire. Many seem to simply despise the Sith and Empire because the Jedi oppose them. I don't buy this. Likewise, the Jedi are held as virtuous when it isn't really shown it's *said*. The Jedi are just as flawed as the Sith and Empire. In some fashions I'd say more.
  3. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4


    =D==D=
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  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    An ethical issue is in the eye of the beholder. There is no "proof" of it.


    You are vilifying the Jedi for actions that Palpatine and the Senate took, rather than vilifying Palpatine and the Senate for actions that they took.

    And I see little difference between expecting someone to behave a certain way and giving that person or group a pass for that behavior, especially when blame for that behavior is being deflected upon someone else.

    And I believe in not playing the convolution game and getting to the point. The person or group who took the action is responsible for it. Period.


    There are plenty of characters I don't like, but I find the practice of deliberately setting out to find fault with a character a bit ridiculous.

    The reason I am far more interested in the Sith, is because I find them much more down to earth than the Jedi.

    LOL, I've been known to like some unpopular and/or morally ambiguous characters, and I can't stand being spoonfed a "hero," but I'm not even touching that one.

    @Cushing's Admirer : I see no difference in labeling the Jedi as the problem regarding the clone army and scapegoating them.
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  5. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    That's your choice, AFS. I fail to see why you have such a problem with some being willing and able to see and acknowledge the Jedi aren't white but are grey.
    Anzeroth2112 likes this.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LOL, "grey" is not exactly what you all are painting them here.
    FRAGWAGON likes this.
  7. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    That's how *you* take it you don't know how we see them, you haven't asked.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, Apr 3, 2014
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  8. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    I will also get to the point. If stand idle and do nothing, when others do what we find to be morally wrong, we are also partly responsible.
    This reminded me of a quote from Burke that explains perfectly what I mean: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    Yes it is ridiculous. Does not mean that most people don't do it. Neither does it mean that the faults found are false.

    OK. As you wish
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 3, 2014
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I needed to ask? There have been about five pages of "let me list all the ways the Jedi suck" posts in this thread just in the past month. What exactly am I supposed to be inferring here?

    @Anzeroth2112 : That's not getting to the point, that's blaming bad behavior on people who didn't commit it.

    As far as your second paragraph, if it's acceptable in your eyes for people to scapegoat the Jedi, what's the issue with (your perception of) how Lucas portrayed the Sith?
  10. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Well, you could not do exactly what you're accusing us of, AFS.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    What?
  12. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    You're implying we are all painting the Jedi black, we're not. You're assuming.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I've had reason to assume. But by all means, post your positive opinions of the Jedi. This thread needs some Jedi positivity from someone other than me.
  14. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    ^^ My reaction to these past few pages. Now then, let's all not stoop to a personal level in our discussions here and just move on.
    Dark Lord Tarkas likes this.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    As portrayed in the EU, the Jedi Order as a whole, do a lot of good. They seek out problems troubling the people of the galaxy, and do their best to solve them.

    While they do "turn a blind eye" now and again, its generally the exception rather than the rule.

    However, in the case of the Clone Wars - they did so a bit more than in times prior.
  16. Cevan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 2
    Recently I've been watching bits of RotS since TCW is over, and I have to say, I feel TCW (especially arcs like the Order 66 and Yoda arc) have really made me appreciate RotS much more than I did before. The whole movie seems a whole lot sadder, and a whole lot better. It's just disheartening seeing Order 66 take place after watching all of TCW, seeing these clones that have served right alongside the Jedi all throughout the War and become friends with them, knowing that the clones had no control and were deceived just as much as the Jedi were. The final duel in the movie, Vader vs. Obi-Wan, just seems even more emotional now as well. There are many times throughout TCW that we get to see both Anakin and Obi-Wan together, the best of friends. Seeing them now squaring off against one another as foes after getting to see them as friends all throughout TCW is depressing.

    So basically what I'm saying is that TCW has given me a new outlook on RotS, and made me really appreciate it that much more. For me personally, RotS is a whole lot sadder now after seeing TCW, but I think it actually benefits from this.
  17. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Sifo-Dyas is guilty of ordering the army. The Kaminoan government is guilty of creating it and every one like it. Jango Fett is guilty of selling his DNA to produce it. The Cuy'val Dar are guilty of going along with it all while they were on Kamino. The Republic leadership is guilty of accepting and using the army as slaves, denying them citizenship, rights, and pay. The Jedi Order, as an institution, is guilty of abetting the Republic in its unjust actions, not making a stand against the use of a slave army, and taking part in the clones' exploitation. And the Sith are guilty of manipulating and exploiting all parties to these ends. There is an enormous well of guilt and blame to go around when it comes to the absolute wrong that was the breeding and implementation of an army of slave soldiers.

    The one thing that draws the Jedi particular focus in this grand fiasco is that they are the purported guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. They hold a very unique role in both the narrative structure and the universe, and whether you think it's fair or not, they are held to a higher standard of behavior than the average man. Comparatively, you expect better of the Justice League than the GOP, do you not? If you claim to stand for truth, justice, and the American way ethical treatment of all beings, making these ideals a central part of your identity at the individual and institutional level, the dissonance between preach and practice that accompanies standing alongside government sanctioned slavery because it's the convenient, "necessary" evil is impossible to ignore.
  18. Weechee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 1
    not sure what you mean? The GOP was formed and fought a war to abolish slavery....

    It emerged in 1854 to combat the Kansas–Nebraska Act, which threatened to extend slavery into the territories

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party

    I can find much to fault them for over the past 150 years, but to imply they supported slavery in any way is just wrong, um Abe Lincoln anyone? so lets give credit where it is due...
    Last edited by Weechee, Apr 3, 2014
  19. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    [IMG]

    I think you just completely missed the point of Mia's post. She used the GOP as a nonspecific example of a political body. She could have used any political body/organization, and her broader point would have remained the same.
  20. Weechee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 1
    seemed specific to use a body that opposed slavery to make that point....do not want to start a political debate at all, just saying that analogy sort of seemed wrong... she should have said "the government" or "congress" if that was the case...in the bigger sense I pretty much agree with the overall point she was making
    Last edited by Weechee, Apr 3, 2014
  21. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    Mia can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume she had the modern incarnation of the GOP in mind, rather than the historical one. Unless you're a historian, most people nowadays don't give much thought into the origins of whatever they're talking about, just how it exists nowadays. At least in 'Murica.
    Contessa and Mia Mesharad like this.
  22. Weechee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 1
    which is true, so that was my effort to make them think a little more about it....
  23. Weechee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 1
    in general this whole debate about the morality of a clone army is not that different than real life drafts. Conscription takes people against their will and forces them to fight for a cause that they may or may not care about. Most people think of Palpatine as being like Julius Caeser or Hitler, which he is meant to be based on in part, but also think of Lincoln...Republic in a Civil War against a break away faction that calls itself The Confederacy, sounds much like the US Civil War...Lincoln was hated by many and called a tyrant and dictator, he imposed the first draft, he imprisoned journalists who opposed the war effort, he claimed "emergency powers", suspended civil liberties, and he subverted congress and issued executive orders to achieve many of his goals....yet he is seen by history as one of the greatest US Presidents because of the end result of ending slavery and securing the Union. Do the ends justify the means? I am sure anyone who was or would have been a slave would say they did, but any mother who's son went off to die for some other's cause would probably disagree...so the similarities to Palpatine and the Jedi are no accident, it is this moral confusion that is the trap the Jedi have fallen into, so they have been placed in a very bad situation and really have no good option to choose.

    Also is it not more moral to the people you serve to use a droid army to protect the citizens from dying in war, but also totally immoral to unleash an uncaring droid army against your foes...which mirrors todays debate about the use of drones in war and law enforcement...so I think that that is why the Jedi lost their way and lost the war simply by engaging in it.

    And this is why the Rebellion is a totally "white hat good guy" because all the soldiers were willingly fighting for what they believed in. So as Mia said there is plenty of blame to go around to all parties involved, but really what choice do they have, would it also be wrong to sit back and do nothing as the whole galaxy fell apart....even Padme who opposes the war on all levels still engages in the fighting...and Satine who asks Obi if it is "reality that makes one loose their ideals" also feels the need to defend herself...so pacifism is not the answer, war is not the answer, what is the answer?

    I don't even know what my point is anymore except that Palpatine pretty much set up everyone to loose....

    and American politics have devolved into blue team vs. red team and the bureaucrats are the only ones who are benefiting from it.

    had the republic won the war outright and the Jedi survived would they have rewarded the clones with payment and freedom, and would this have absolved the Jedi in any way?
    Last edited by Weechee, Apr 3, 2014
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  24. Contessa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2013
    star 2
    The funny thing about the GOP reference is that it totally works for a comparison to the Republic. Founded for good reasons, did good stuff in the past, but really deteriorated over time and turned into something super ****** and gross. Not sure if it was intentional on Mia's part, but I approve.
    Last edited by Contessa, Apr 3, 2014
  25. Weechee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 1
    so am i talking to a group that believes D is Good always and R is bad, Blue is good Red is bad, anyone who does not vote democrat is a racist, any black republican is an uncle tom? if so please let me know because I have no interest in engaging with such close minded people? It is wrong to judge an entire group based on a few unless they are republicans, then we can just make blanket statements about the whole lot?
    Last edited by Weechee, Apr 3, 2014