1. A Message For Everyone:

    TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    Not touching the real-world political analogies with a ten-foot Gungan electropole. Those of you who have been around awhile, know where I stand on the "R" vs "D" debate, and it's not even relevant here.

    Per this thread, the Jedi are not only held to a "higher standard" (which is an individual choice and not automatic, I have the same expectations of behavior for everyone, and bad behavior is bad no matter who commits it). They are also apparently held responsible for the behavior of everyone else in the Republic, which to me reads as if the Senate, the Kaminoans, and anyone else who is actually directly responsible for ordering the clones, cannot be held responsible for their behavior, only the Jedi for "allowing" it.

    I don't understand why it's so impossible to discuss the clone army and its use without the blame deflection.

    Of course the Republic was corrupt. I don't know how long it had been that way; the corruption was there during the Plagueis novel so 50 years before TPM. But the Jedi were neither responsible for the corruption nor were they responsible for fixing it.

    And the Jedi were trying to be keepers of the peace. AOTC demonstrates this. They were not responsible for starting the war, and as I've said, they didn't want it. The Jedi did the best they could with the cluster**** of a hand that they were dealt.

    Of all the supposedly-good people who were responsible for not only ordering the clone army but orchestrating the war itself, deflecting hate on the Jedi because there was no episode in which they sat around and ruminated on it, seems horribly, horribly misplaced.

    Hate on Shaak Ti in the Order 66 arc if you want, that arc did not exactly endear me to the clones, at least not the way they were written in the show. It even gave me a different perspective on how they were written in other arcs, particularly Umbara.
    Valairy Scot and Pfluegermeister like this.
  2. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Obi-Wan calls them "the guardians of peace and justice"
  3. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    Now I get it. The Jedi were supposed to fix political corruption.

    That expectation is absolutely ridiculous.

    The Jedi in the Old Republic were sent to negotiate disputes among warring factions on various Republic planets. What dispute were they supposed to settle here? How, in practical terms, were they supposed to wipe out corruption in the Republic Senate?
  4. Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I'm really going to have to side with AFS-1983 on this one. For me, like her, the attitude towards the Jedi here is hard to understand, and I too am unsure what the Jedi are supposed to have done short of taking the Constitution and shredding it (granted, Palpatine was doing that too, but do two wrongs make a right?).

    To answer her question, let's talk about what, in practical terms, "wiping out corruption in the Senate" would mean: it would mean, as Windu said in ROTS, that the Jedi would have to take control of the Senate (and in a political environment where the Jedi Order is already in the doghouse anyway, how long would people stand for that?); that means either effectively invalidating more than a thousand elections for senators and representatives, or having to comb through the Senate delegate by delegate to determine who can stay and who has to have their position vacated. And who decides that? Based on what criteria? Do the Jedi make these decisions themselves, or do they allow an independent vetting board that they would endorse and/or oversee? And what political validity would such a board have, or the Jedi themselves for that matter? And what would the Courts have to say about it? Granted, Palpatine filled the Courts with his judges, but even so, are the Jedi just supposed to purge them too?

    So we're looking at the Jedi Order definitely having to purge the executive and legislative branches and possibly having to purge the judicial branch too: tell me, how Jedi-like would THAT look? If you were an ordinary citizen of the Republic, would you look at what the Jedi were doing as "defending peace and justice" or "wiping out corruption in the Senate?" Or would it look like exactly what, legally speaking, it would be: an illegal coup made against all branches of a government that came to power legally? By an organization that functions at the sufferance of the government and lives high in their towers talking philosophy on the people's tax money? Honestly, how would that look?
  5. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    I simply cannot understand how wiping out corruption in the Senate has anything to do with the Jedi's position on the use of the clones.
    IMO, the whole Jedi-clone army issue revolved around the Jedi objecting to its use, due to it being unethical, as it essentially was a slave army.

    Obviously a takeover of the Senate by the Jedi Order in an attempt to cleanse its corruption will look bad. The attack on Palpatine by the Jedi was what allowed him to begin the Jedi Purge; because their attack looked like a coup.
    But I never did expect the Jedi to take such extreme actions, so that they protest against the use of the clone army.
    What I did expect, was the Jedi to at least criticize and/or object to the use of the Clone Army for the war, as it the clones were slaves. But nothing like that ever happened in either the films or in the show.
    Wella Targana and Contessa like this.
  6. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    - I don't think this is anything like drafting soldiers, at all. A draftee spends their life up to that point in the country that they are ultimately going to serve. And while conscription may be against their will, they were free to that point, and they have a stake in their country's well being. The clones were never given a choice and never had a choice, ever. They were cloned for a singular purpose - to serve a government that they've never known - and were genetically modified/brainwashed to pretty much not ***** about it.

    - The Jedi are not the only ones to share blame, but they are the ones that interact with the clones on a day-to-day basis and have really humanized them. So, I think their outlook is the more messed up. As I threw out there earlier, which is more messed up, denying someone rights or privileges because you think they aren't human? Or knowing someone full well to be human and equal, but enslaving them anyway?

    I'm reminded of this scene from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine



    Background information: The only two characters actually there are Gul Dukat (the white alien) and Benjamin Sisko (the African American), everyone else is a hallucination in Dukat's head. He is a Cardassian and the Cardassians had occupied a planet called Bajor, where Dukat was a prefect of a Bajoran labor camp (the woman he hallucinates is a Bajoran). And he's trying to rationalize that he's actually a good guy because he actually tried to alleviate Bajoran suffering in the labor camps, but that the Bajorans still rebelled, but he also maintains that they are an inferior people and that it was really their lot in life to serve, but that he's the tragic ruler since they were too stupid to see that his rule had benefited them. So, while Star Trek deals with way more morally gray areas than Star Wars does, here it's trying to show that NO amount of enslavement, occupation, forced labor, etc. is OK. That the Bajorans had the right to oppose Dukat, despite his self-righteous view that he made Bajor a better place.

    Dukat kind of falls into the camp of someone who sees an inferior person and exploits them. Kind of the "white man's burden." Which is still completely wrong, And I think the Senate perhaps falls into this kind of line of thought. But the Jedi see the clones not as inferior. And so to them they should be the ones to really challenge the system, or at least refuse to take part in it. They might not stop the slavery, but they can refuse to be a part of it. Shaak Ti can say "**** this, I'm going home." And the Jedi could have pulled a Rahm Kota and refused to serve clones and only be willing to serve with volunteer forces.

    I mean, when it came to the African slave trade, there was a very condescending view that white's were superior. That blacks were like an inferior subspecies. There was even pseudo-science to really classify the races into a hierarchy of intelligence. So while that view was completely unfounded, some were convinced that it was true. The Nazis did the same kinds of things to try and justify the superiority of the "Aryan" race. Now which is worse, the idea that such people would enslave what they perceive to be an inferior, savage, less intelligent group, or thinking that they are totally equal, but enslaving them anyway?

    The Kaminoans seem to fall into the prior camp. Or maybe the fact that they have been cloning things for so long has numbed them from being able to see the clones as anything other than products. Not anything with any kind of rights. Maybe a "we brought you into this world and so you are ours to do with as we please" mentality. They seem to think it ridiculous that people like Shaak Ti would even try to relate to them as though they're humans.

    I am not religious, but I know there are religious people out there that ask questions like "would a clone have a soul?" and answers such as "no, because they are not 'created by God.'" Which in the real world seems like it would set things up for cruel clone exploitation, if human cloning ever became a thing, and if such people were in power making those decisions. Krell seems to have that kind of inflated "you're not natural born, so you're inferior" complex. Though he doesn't go so far as to throw the word "soul" around.

    I would think that the Senate at large sees the clones more like the Kaminoans or Krell. They don't seem like they've interacted with the clones at all. All they know is that genetically engineered humans are rolling off the metaphorical assembly line on Kamino and have been modified to be obedient. They might see this as fundamentally different from slavery. Anakin was a slave. But they might see the clones more like yaks and other beasts of burden. They are a sub-human lifeform being exploited for work, and beasts of burden have no rights in that regard.

    But it's more messed up for me for someone like Yoda to actually go out of his way to say that all the Clones feel differently in the Force, which seems like a roundabout Star Wars equivalent of basically saying that they are a part of the Force and have a soul. And then we have Shaak Ti that also goes out of her way to help Fives and Domino Squad and treating them with a greater degree of respect, but still serving as a Jedi Representative to see the creation of more slaves on Kamino. She falls into the latter camp of someone that sees them as no different than any other human, that these are all sentient beings worthy of respect, but "psst, we need more, send the bill to the Republic!"

    I understand also that there is a predicament that the cloning of Jango might also be like food production in the real world.

    I.E. If you eat pork, ranchers raise more pigs for the express purpose of butchering them to continue to meet demand for pork. So there's an endless cycle of slaughter to meet demand.

    But if everyone turned vegetarian, then there are millions of pigs that serve no purpose. And a rancher isn't going to continue to invest money in a product that cannot be sold, so they'd likely all just get slaughtered anyway and perhaps turned into dog food.

    So, if the Republic uses the Clone Army, they are condemning more slaves as the Kaminoans will continue to create Jango clones to meet the Republic's demand. But if the Republic said "no thank you" and didn't make use of the clone army, then they would all likely just be executed or otherwise disposed of.

    The best option that I think they could have done would have been to be like Daenerys. Purchase all of the clones, put no order in for any future clones. And when they come of age for military service, free them. Then give them the option to serve the Republic voluntarily, or allow them to pursue a different path. In all likelihood the vast majority of them would have chosen to serve the Republic anyway, since that was all they were trained to do. But that still would have been their choice, and it would have removed their morally repugnant status as Republic property bought at the Kaminoan "market."
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Apr 4, 2014
  7. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    The subject of the Jedi wiping out corruption in the Senate came up because it was the (corrupt) Senate who were responsible for ordering the clones in the first place, and several of the posts here have indicated that it was somehow the responsibility of the Jedi to stop the use of the clone army.

    As far as your second paragraph, as I think I've mentioned, I absolutely would not want an episode in which the Jedi sit around and preach, moralize, ruminate or otherwise emote on how terrible it is to use the clones.

    Of course if such an episode were made, I could probably put play it on a loop next time insomnia hits.

    You mentioned that you had a hard time believing that no one objected to chopping off arms in bars, although we never saw such an objection. (I don't care whether anyone objected or not but the point stands.). Also, as you said, almost all of the Jedi "humanized" the clones, and you and Iron_lord posted that citation from the novels in which the cloning process bothered Obi-Wan and Yoda.

    Why is a melodramatic emoting episode about the evils of using the clone army needed to keep the Jedi from being blamed and bashed for acts that they did not commit and were not responsible for?
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  8. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    =D=


    In addition, I would say that the Jedi saw this as a necessary evil that they had to commit in order to ensure the the Galaxy does not fall under Sith hands.

    Slavery is one of the purest forms of evil and I simply cannot stand people that adhere to it. However, enslaved, genetically-bred clones were used justified by the notion that the ends justify the means. However, to me, that line of thinking is also flawed.
    If we disregarded, just for a minute, that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and that the Jedi had refused to command the clones into battle. IMO, the Senate would still use the clones as an army,just without the Jedi as Generals.
    So, the outcome would still be the same. The Republic would win the war, as their army was superior to droids in skill, but also, gradually in number , as more and more clones were "produced" in Kamino.

    That seems to be, in my opinion, the best solution as well. Also the fact that Game of Thrones intertwined with Star Wars made crack a smile :)
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 4, 2014
    Iron_lord likes this.
  9. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    Simply put, to show that the Jedi are bothered by the fact that enslaved clones are used as soldiers to fight a war they had absolutely no stake in. If this issue is not addressed, then how are we supposed to see the Jedi as individuals with high morals, if they do not object to and accept slavery?
    Cushing's Admirer likes this.
  10. Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I'm not going to speak for anybody else here, particularly when lots of people here have entirely valid moral opinions regarding the issue, but to me this desire to see the Jedi have moral quandries about accepting and working with the clone army really just amounts to wanting the Jedi to see themselves the way Karen Traviss sees them - and if people really wanted to see the Jedi depicted thus (to say nothing of the Jedi seeing themselves thus), Traviss would still be writing books in this franchise. We didn't. She isn't.

    Probably the closest thing we're going to see regarding any kind of moral epiphany on the matter was the Yoda arc - and it's entirely appropriate that it be Yoda who goes through such a transformation since it was HE who went to Kamino to pick up the clones, took them to Geonosis, and led them into battle in the first place. But even then, it's more of a general feeling that Yoda should never have bought into war-fever to begin with; the use of the clones as soldiers is cast as merely a symptom of that initial mistake.

    The real sin of the Jedi Order in all this mess is simply this: with entirely innacurate and/or incomplete information, and apparently lacking other viable alternatives, they accepted the word of people whom they felt they generally had no reason to doubt - and whom they were legally obligated to heed in any case - and acted accordingly. By the time they realized their error, and that they SHOULD have doubted the people they thought they had no reason to doubt, it was too late.

    Yeah, that'll make for a FANTASTIC twenty-two minutes of programming...

    And here's the thing: we're meant to see Qui-Gon as an individual with high morals, after he made it clear in TPM that the condition of slaves means something to him only if they're chock full o' Force? Because lacking that essential element, he accepted slavery and didn't object to it. "I didn't actually come here to free slaves," he says to the very face of a woman who spent her life in slavery. Padme' made more of stink about it morally than Qui-Gon did - and even then she never subsequenrtly did anything about it. Is SHE no longer an individual with high morals either? She may have lacked high smarts, but never high morals.
    Last edited by Pfluegermeister, Apr 4, 2014
    Valairy Scot and cwustudent like this.
  11. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    This may not be of your taste, but I would like to actually see the Jedi having moral qualms about the use of the clone army. Just for the sake of clarity.
    And even if 22 minutes of constant Jedi talk about the clones was boring for some, then at least have this be a recurring issue for more than one episode, alongside with the main story. A few minutes of dialogue between Anakin and Obiwan right after Slick was arrested for desertion would be enough for me.

    Seeing one Jedi not object to the notion of slavery does not mean that the Jedi Order followed the same line of thinking.
    For me, that statement by Qui-Gon made me believe that the rest of the Jedi would object to slavery, as Qui-Gon was not accepted as a member of the council due to his views as a Jedi.
    That scene from TPM led me to believe that Qui-Gon was the exception to the rule; that he was one of the few Jedi that would not object to slavery, because of the fact that he had certain views that did not allow him to attain a position in the Council.

    Padme did express her hatred towards slavery in TPM. I never said that anyone would have to act in order to maintain his morals. But, the Jedi did not even express their view on that subject, unlike Padme. That is why a dialogue among members of the Jedi Order would be sufficient for me in a TCW episode. An episode where the Jedi decided to free the clones from slavery and imprison the Kaminoans would not be to my liking; too unrealistic for the Jedi to do actions like that in the middle of such a war.
    A simple, yet effective dialogue in the Jedi council chambers condoning the actions of the Kaminoans, the Senate and the Chancellor for allowing the use of slaves as soldiers, as well as a discussion that the Jedi had become distracted by the war and lost their moral values and how important it is to regain them would be sufficient for me.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    [face_laugh]

    Yeah, no ****. I think that drivel could make Pursuit of Peace or Sunny Day in the Void look entertaining.

    If I want to be preached at or listen to a lecture on ethics, I'll go to church. I don't for numerous reasons, one is that I can nap at home in a much more comfortable chair.

    LOL wut?

    Sure, why not, let's just disregard pretty much the entire point of Star Wars.
    cwustudent likes this.
  13. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    Surely you can realize by reading the whole paragraph, that this was a pure hypothesis used to make a point about the Clone Army....:rolleyes:
  14. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    There is really no point in hypothesizing about Palpatine not being a Sith Lord. The very idea of Palpatine not being a Sith Lord is a joke.

    That's not even moving goal posts, that's trying to play baseball on a basketball court.
  15. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    If there wasn't a point to him, he wouldn't have done it, AFS. Personally, I'd like to hear him out.
  16. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    Thank you Cushing :)
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 4, 2014
    Cushing's Admirer likes this.
  17. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    You're welcome, Anzeroth. :) I do not always wholly agree with you but I find it refreshing that you bring a very reasoned out approach to the complexities presented within SW.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    If you all want to talk about some alternate universe in which Palpatine isn't a Sith, by all means go for it.

    Let me know when we're back to discussing Star Wars.
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  19. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    We are discussing Star Wars, AFS. He simply is striving to make a point clearer by stepping away a bit from a certain aspect of it. People use other examples to clarify their points all the time.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, Apr 4, 2014
  20. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    Using Palpatine not being a Sith as a way to clarify anything in Star Wars, does the opposite.

    If Palpatine were not a Sith, there would have been no war or clone army to blame on the Jedi.

    Ironic.

    But also completely irrelevant as that isn't the universe we are discussing.
  21. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    So...changing the subject a little bit, as I feel the need to chillax 'round these parts...

    [IMG]
    "Livin' young and wild and free..."

    Anyone have any idea what Lom Pyke was smoking? Is it tabac, or something entirely different?
  22. Sable_Hart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Just read TFN's review of "The Lost One" and it raises a fascinating point: Sidious's telekinetic throttling of Tyranus was as much a revelation of the Sith Master's panic as it was a demonstration of his immense power.
    QuangoFett, Revanfan1, Seerow and 3 others like this.
  23. Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    My GOD, how I've been waiting for that shot to get Giffed...

    And do we really even have to ask? The man is baked goods. :p
    kubricklynch and Circular Logic like this.
  24. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    I also think this is a good idea Circular Logic.

    On a sidenote:
    As I was watching the order 66 arc in Season 6, I was surprised by Sidious' choice to reveal his plot to Fives about Order 66.
    Palpatine, being a brilliant schemer and conjuring a plot that has taken decades in preparation, decides to simply reveal his plan to a clone.
    For what reason? Just so Fives would attack him and thus be considered dangerous? So that Coruscant's security forces would shoot him would shoot on sight?

    In my opinion, I see nothing to be gained by Palpatine.
    He propably gambled that everyone would not believe that the Chancellor would be capable of such treachery. At least Anakin did.
    But what if Fives had contacted someone else and relayed his claims to some other clone? Someone that would believe Fives?
    This easily could turn into the military doing an investigation of the chip in the clones.
    Sidious would propably still be able to put a halt to the investigation but still...

    P.S I think Sidious' new voice is much better than that of Ian.
  25. Sable_Hart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Curry's Sidious is appropriately sinister and creepy but he's got nothing on Abercrombie's Palpatine, imho.

    And I think Palpatine told Fives the truth just to be a total douche.