Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
There is so much wrong with the Order 66 arc, and that's part of it.
For me, it's on a strictly case-by-case basis, or even a scene-by-scene basis. Tim Curry is a good man to have in the role because of his street cred, because he's made fearless choices as an actor, and because he does evil with a practiced ease, but it's just harder to buy him as Palpatine than as Sidious; Palpatine requires an actor to emote in such a way that the audience understands what's going on in his head, but the other characters would have a believable reason to interpret his words in a more benign fashion, and that's a VERY subtle art. Ian was absolutely perfect at it, and that made every scene he was in sublimely delicious. Curry is ACCEPTABLE at it, but as admittedly great as he pulled off that line in "Orders," ("Each day we get closer and closer to victory..."), I still cannot help but wonder just how it would have sounded had Ian Abercrombie been given a chance at it.
By contrast, with the incredible exception of "The Lawless," I liked Abercrombie's Sidious less than I do Curry's, but that's largely because he had less opportunities to emote in that role (again, save for when he's smacking down his former apprentice and his brother on Mandalore). Curry sounds more at home in the Sidious role, and his trademark menace shines through. He'd have been great if they ever got around to Sidious coming out in ROTS, because the kind of villainous voice that the cackling, evil-and-lovin'-it Sidious required in the second half of that film is Curry's specialty.
Lol, here's one that's more theme related:
Well, there is no proof of exactly what Sidious told Fives since it happened off screen. I would like to think he told Fives the truth. In a sense the truth is just so outlandish nobody in their right mind is going to believe it. Sidious bet on this and his contingency was Fives would die long before he could spread much truth. he was deteriorating pretty rapidly while on the run. Its just cruel because Fives dies with a truth desperately knowing no one will believe him and it will kill many of his friends. Fives doesn't know what Anakin will become, he looked up to and practically worshiped that man as Umbara touched on and was reiterated early in this arc. I imagine it hurt him incredibly to be treated like a crazy person even by Anakin, this not surprising to us... but to Fives? Poor Fives didn't die with the knowledge Rex believes him, who I swear was like his father believe him. Well I guess this is all a moot point because his brains were kinda soup when he died. "Good soldiers follow orders..." But still, man its a heart breaker.
And I bet Quinlan would get along well with Lom Pyke. xD
I don't think it's possible Palpatine told Fives the truth about everything. There were other people in the room too. Palpatine is not that sloppy.
Palps could easily phrased in in such a way every time he spoke, he spoke in a question... "Do you think..." to where anyone who overheard was not sure our even though he was mocking Fives, but Fives at the same time understood. Either way Fives was told something that had him fearing for all his brothers and the Jedi. He was trying to tell them something he thought would save them.
so why did this bother me so much? no one asked but let me tell you anyway, because I have been volunteering at a local animal shelter that is 100% funded by private donations (guess who? rich republicans mostly) and rescues cats and dogs. One day I went to McDonalds and there was an entire family of cats living under the dumpster, we were able to capture them and take them to the shelter, most of them had feline leukemia and would of had to be put down except for the donations of one single guy who happens to be a rich white republican. So we were able to give them a home quarantined away from the non infected cats. Guess what I found out he also donates tons of money to help save and protect the whales, manatees, and dolphins.
Also have you heard of the price is right, Bob Barker? he has been on the TV endorsing a republican running over in St Pete, guess what he also does, he has a whaling boat named after him that fights Japanese whalers, because he donates so much money to animal activism....so while I am not a full blown republican myself I take great offense to people hating these people who do a lot of good things down here....so maybe they don't agree with you on some issues, but you are being a hater
and you Contessa, if you want to learn about some politicians who are "super ****** and gross" try looking up some info on Jon Edwards the Vice presidential candidate for 2004, or a guy named Blagojevich, or maybe Anthony Wiener....
OK I have said my piece and will not mention it again....
Personally, I look at exactly who was in the room with him: the Red Guard, and his private security detachment of Coruscant Guard shocktroopers. The Red Guard are stated to be exceedingly loyal to Palpatine, hand picked from the ranks of the Senate Guard, Senate Commandos, and according to rumors, the remnants of the Sith-serving Sun Guard. Additionally, many of the shocktroopers at this time were Coruscant-grown Spaarti clones, bred to be loyal not to the Republic like the Kamino clones, but to Palpatine himself. So I figure that if he were to be a bit more...candid with Fives, he would be secure in the knowledge that he's surrounded by people he could absolutely trust as his men, who will back him in the gambit he puts into motion and die for his secrets.
well seems obvious, that if he is the head of the spice syndicate, and they create a powerful drug from the spice, and they all appear to be baked out of their minds, that he is probably smokin' this spice derived drug...No?
It's not about blame deflection, it's about blame sharing. I mean, Mia pointed out perfectly how there are *so* many parties at fault here. The Kaminoans, Jango, Sifo-Dyas, the politician, etc... The problem with the Jedi is that where you pretty much expect them to go "Whoa, this is wrong, count me out" or at least put some sort of conditions down (clones get citizenship, rights, pay, we stop growing more and get some recruits now...) before they'll agree to get involved, being good and all about treating people well...and they don't. They just sort of go "Oh okay, this seems sketchy, but we're down."
Wait, so it was wrong for the Jedi to realize that they'd been put in a morally ****** place, a place they were put in by Palpatine and the politicians? And it was wrong for the Jedi to try to work inside the system they got stuck in to make life better for the clones because they realize they dropped the ball in taking command of the GAR in the first place? Because that's how Traviss wrote them.
And don't bull**** like Traviss's books weren't top sellin g SW, and she got kicked out of SW for her writing. If Del Rey would've paid her what she was owed, she'd still be around.
lol I know all about ****** politicians of every party. But Repubs make their platform on being pro cis-straight, white, Christian, male with money and anti everything else. Not sorry I don't care for 'em.
that is an ignorant racist stereotype
also FYI, if you don't like republicans you should probably not support Star Wars any more as Disney is throwing around all kinds of money down here in Florida to support Republicans, now more than ever. They donated something like 2.5 million to political ads last cycle, of which 90% of went to republicans
I really don't think this kind of discussion has anything to do with this topic, let alone Star Wars itself...
Yeah. There is nowhere pleasant a discussion about real-world politics is going to go.
@Contessa : in this particular thread, it has not been about blame-sharing, it's been several pages of "let's talk about how much the Jedi suck."
If it were about blame-sharing, why is Mia the only one who even mentioned blame for the army being placed on a group other than the Jedi?
And if I'm understanding all the anti-Jedi hostility here, the Jedi are the only ones who are expected to take a stand. The Kaminoans get no heat for not saying, "Hey, why are we breeding this army?" The Senate gets no heat for voting to use them. It's all on the Jedi for some reason, who were assigned to be their generals against their will and as far as I can see, had no real choice here. Sure, they could try to set conditions as you said, and Palpatine and the Senate could say, "Would you like food delivered to the Temple dining hall this week? Would you like the water kept on so you can wash those ugly brown robes of yours? Would you like the electricity kept on, or would you like to use your lightsabers to see in the dark?"
The Jedi worked for the Republic, whether the Republic is corrupt or not. It's easy to say that they "should have been serving the Force" but the Force doesn't have a bank account. I have no idea how the Jedi operated in the TOR days but it's not really relevant because we're discussing the Mace and Obi-Wan generation of Jedi and the immediate choices that they had.
Obviously the use of the clone army bothers a lot of viewers, but I do not understand the viewpoint that the Jedi are the only characters in universe expected to stand against it.
The Republic had not had a war in a thousand years so using a clone army was new to everyone. But it does not seem that cloning was new, so I wonder what clones were used for, prior to being bred as soldiers.
This has a Star Wars in it. We all know The Emperor originally was based off of Nixon but what not always told is that the Trade Federation was based off liberal entrepreneurs from the late nineteenth century (Rockefeller, Carnegie, JP Morgan, Vanderbilt)
Changing the subject (again); does anyone else here get the impression that Dooku is shown more powerful against Anakin in TWC?
The only exception that I can see is the arc in Season 4, where Obi-Wan goes undercover to find the ones behind the plot to kill the chancellor (Oh the irony!).
When Anakin faces Dooku there, he seems to clearly outmatch him.
In other episodes, and especially in Season 6, Dooku was able to fend off both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, without breaking a sweat.
IMO, Dooku is far more powerful in short duels. If he cannot kill his enemy in a short amount of time, his stamina wears out and is unable to properly defend himself.
Dooku had a very specific fighting style that Anakin and Obi-Wan had trouble matching even when they tag-teamed. I almost think Anakin got lucky when he defeated him in ROTS.
I don't. I really think Anakin had gotten better. But i do agree, watching the fight in Episode 2, and then watching Episode 3 just makes you scream BS.
"I'm taking him NOW!"
No, dumb***, you aren't.
Okay, since we're needing a left-field discussion-topic-changer...
Awwww, Yoda's got a cute little, itty-bitty BABY fighter!!! Couldn't you just pinch it's cheeks?!
But seriously, if you're the creators of TCW, and you have a story in which Yoda's going to be flying around in a one-person fighter for any length of time, you have two choices, either one frought with some degree of ridiculousness. The first is to have Yoda sit in a normal-sized fightercraft, but then you've got the problem of it looking stupid because he's so small he'd look like he can't reach the controls without putting a couple of phone books under him. Which leads us to the second option: design a fighter specifically proportioned to Yoda's physical needs, which is what they did. And, because it's Yoda's fighter, it's gotta have green and yellow markings on it.
If there's a problem I have with this decision, it's that the fighter they chose to downscale was the ROTS Jedi interceptor design, the one that looks so much like a TIE fighter, if only because that means we've got Yoda running around in a rather Imperial-looking fighter and that seems to just philosophically clash. I'll grant that there are numerous reasons that shouldn't matter: the large TIE window means you can easily see Yoda from the outside; people in-universe shouldn't have the same sense of foreboding about TIE windows that we do; and so on. But as they were obligated to design a ship from scratch for Yoda anyway, could they not have designed a more distinctive fighter, one that was also entirely unique to Yoda without being so TIE-ish? Perhaps; perhaps not - but I found the question worth floating.
That said, I frankly think Yoda's version of the interceptor is my hands-down favorite version of the fighter. For some reason the proportions look reduced without being made SO cute that I don't respect it as a fighter after the first couple of shots of it (I'll grant that I opened with an "aww" joke, but undoubtedly some of you out there thought the same thing when you saw it). In other words, but for the one brief opening moment or two, it never took me out of the story, save for those two points I mentioned. But I confess to wondering if it was going to make cute little baby-TIE flying sound effects too; thank God, good taste prevailed...
We also have to conclude that he's HAD this interceptor for a little while; it still bears the older AOTC-era Republic symbol, even though they've already begun using (in the Gascon arc and "The Lost One") the simplified ROTS-era Republic symbol, the one that's half a hair removed from the OT Imperial symbol. If that latter symbol has been around for a couple seasons now, then that fighter was probably issued to Yoda on or before that time. Of course, we only saw the interceptor for the first time at the end of Season 5, but we have to conclude it's been issued prior to that point, and that Yoda was obviously considered important enough both to merit one of the first ones off the production line and to commission one proportioned to suit his needs.
That's all I got; anybody wanna run with it?
Ahh, so fighters in SW don't have adjustable power seats? Lol, makes me think of Rocko's Modern Life where he's to short and has this blow up donut under his but. It is a cute little fighter. I didn't realize it was so small until you pointed it out. Kinda reminds me of one of those itty bitty Smart Cars with the bubble shape. It always seems like SW vehicles are good a not killing occupants in crashes and this one looks like it might need a safety recall.
The Tie window always seems like a bad design to me. Even as far back as SWW fighters started using bubble canopies so pilots could see all around them in dog fights. Maybe in the black of space and with all kinda of sensors and a force sensitive pilot that wouldn't matter. The bubble canopy doesn't seem popular anyways.
That's all I got. I tried,
I have a question. No, a few. Its been on my mind now for a few weeks. I'm almost afraid to bring up CW Grievous, hoping to avoid another CW versus TCW yelling-match discussion... Bear in mind, this is the TV thread, not the EU forum.
I paired CW and the Yoda arc one day. TCW elaborated on the relationships that Dooku has with various characters on both sides of the war, including Palpatine, the Kaminoans, the Jedi, the Pykes, the Confederacy, the GAR, etc. Some know him as Dooku, some as Tyranus. I'm not entirely sure, but it seems that only Palpatine/Sidious knew Dooku = Tyranus, with the possible exception of Jango Fett. At the first battle of Geonosis, Yoda clearly sensed Dooku had gone dark, but nobody accused Dooku of being the Sith apprentice. After all, red saber doesn't automatically mean Sith. Ahsoka threw around the fact that Dooku is a Sith all over the place - how the heck did she know? Was that her black-and-white teen logic again? Did she learn that from Anakin? Then Talzin, she's in the know, as was CW- and TCW-Ventress. Then, in The Lost One, the Jedi got confirmation, Dooku = (Darth) Tyranus. It seems, Dooku's big secret was out.
Now Grievous. During TCW, IIRC Grievous never addressed Dooku as Tyranus, just called him "my lord." After the Yoda arc, I continued with CW Vol. 2. While sparring, Sidious appeared before Dooku and Grievous. As far as SW TV goes, this is the first time we saw Grievous working for the Sith, beyond leading the Sep armies. I assume Grievous connected the dots re: Dooku, but not re: Palpatine, as evidenced by their dialogue, when Grievous finally captured Palpatine. Then comes ROTS, when we see that Grievous has a direct line to Sidious. How much did Grievous know? He probably never realized Palpatine = Sidious, but is there evidence either way that I've overlooked?
And how did the public (on both sides of the war) view Dooku? Did the public view Dooku as a Jedi? An ex-Jedi? A resurgent Sith Lord? I doubt many beings were even aware of Maul, pre-TCW, but perhaps a few were privy to the Sith's return. Like, a few Naboo citizens, and obviously the Jedi.
Sowing all this confusion was in Sidious' favor, but, man, does it give me a headache!
I suppose that's possible. Fives is so paranoid at this point that he might be able to say it in a vague enough way where Fives would know what he means but it wouldn't be clear to the other people in the room.
That's interesting, but I would find it hard to believe that they were so loyal to the Chancellor that he could reveal himself as a tyrant bent on taking down the Republic and they wouldn't care. If anything they should be loyal to the position of chancellor within the Republic, not just one particular chancellor even if he goes against it, and loyalty to the Republic with a chancellor as a form of government means they wouldn't look too kindly on Palpatine's plans to turn it into the Empire.
@anakinfansince1983 you should use direct quotes if you're going to accuse people of saying/thinking something. If things were said several pages back by other people then take it up with them, don't put their words on other people and then try to debate what another person's opinion is. This board is not monolithic, it is a group of individuals. I made this mistake when I first started posting here but you've been here long enough to know these kinds of generalizations are never good for debate.
@Weechee I'll catch up with you in the Disco...
@cwustudent whether or not any given character knew Dooku and Tyranus were the same person, it was still obvious to all that Dooku was a Sith because he uses Force-lightning in Ep. II.
I think that lightning bit is an assumption, Tarkas. There is no reason to believe *only* Sith can use Force Lightning.