Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Yes, it is an assumption, but I think it is a well-founded one. The Jedi obviously associate Force use by people they think are evil with the Sith. In Ep. I Qui-Gon assumes Darth Maul is a Sith based on much, much less, does he not? I'm sure Jedi lore includes "unnatural" powers the Sith have used throughout history and since Force-lightning seems to be basic for a Sith (and among the "third party" Force-users in TCW none of them use Force-lightning) it seems reasonable they would associate it with them. You have a better point OU, but IU we know Jedi assume evil Force use = Sith.
  2. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    And you are assuming Force Lightning equals Evil and Sith. Almost everyone probably does but I consider what we don't see as well. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not possible. The Jedi assume quite a bit it proves their arrogance.
  3. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    I am pretty sure the Jedi realized that Dooku was a Sith Lord following his confrontation with Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis. He showed the extent of his knowledge in the dark side by throwing around Force lightning, a staple of the Sith. While one can argue that like the red lightsaber, it doesn't necessarily make him a Sith (some Nightsisters were able to use Force lightning, and the Plagueis novel notes that some Jedi can produce a "reasonable facsimile"), you have to remember that Dooku already revealed that he had some knowledge of the Sith plot back when he spoke with a captured Obi-Wan on Geonosis―that the Senate was under the control of a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious. It stands to reason that had the Jedi given Dooku's words any thought―and Yoda did say that Dooku was full of deception and lies―they would certainly have realized that he was the second Sith Lord, which they eventually did. They presumed that Dooku and Sidious were in charge of the CIS.

    Grievous definitely did not know Palpatine = Sidious. I am certain this is made clear in the RotS novel. Palpatine even successfully performed a mind trick on Grievous while captured. Grievous was only aware that Sidious was a mysterious benefactor and clandestine leader of the CIS, much like the rest of the Separatist Council, but only Dooku and a select few others in Palpatine's inner circle (people like Sate Pestage, Sly Moore, and likely Mas Amedda) knew the truth about Sidious.

    I'm certain the general Republic people at large viewed Dooku as a former Jedi and leader of the CIS w;ho wanted simply to secede from and wage war on the Republic, probably for the express goal of controlling the galaxy (or at least how Palpatine would have to have spun it to accrue so many emergency powers). Only the Jedi would consider him a "resurgent Sith Lord", because to the general public, the word is meaningless to them; they barely understand the philosophical differences between Jedi and Sith, other than perhaps that they were on opposite sides of a religious conflict in ages long past. Those following the CIS likely viewed Dooku first and foremost as a charismatic political leader and idealist who genuinely had their best interests in mind by breaking away from the Republic and doing away with the corruption that plagued the galactic government for decades. They could care less that he was an ex-Jedi, or a Sith Lord.
  4. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Did you even read my post??? It was all about drawing a distinction between my assumptions and the Jedi's assumptions... [face_dunno]
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I think Dooku being a former Jedi may have fed into anti-Jedi sentiment if the public knew about it.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Apr 5, 2014
  6. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    I think Krell would have done a lot of damage if the Public found out about it. I think that may have been mentioned in the fugitive arc. I mean, here are these expensive clone troopers who are bankrupting the republic and 'worse' (because people will be people) can't take hot showers anymore. Then here is this crazy Jedi shredding these expensive investments.
  7. QuangoFett Force Ghost

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    Jun 11, 2011
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    I can buy your theory for why Yoda's ship has the eight- rather than six-armed Republic Bendu symbol. However, in S5's Sabotage, which is set after the D-Squad arc, Anakin and Ahsoka seem to fly Eta-2 interceptors with the eight-armed symbol. There seems to be a very gradual, inconsistent introduction of the six-armed variant. Perhaps the Jedi hold onto the eight-armed variant longer than the rest of the Republic, though they obviously switch to the more "Imperial" looking six-armed version by the time of ROTS.

    [IMG]

    I actually thought the design of Yoda's personal vessel was quite inspired. He starts out his spiritual journey with the mindset of a "great warrior". He is the leader of the now militarised Jedi Order, which has overseen the growth of a sizeable Republic military from the core of the Grand Army of the Republic, an institution which will eventually become the despotic Imperial military. Yoda's fighter very clearly resembles the TIE series vehicles, arguably to an even greater degree than the Eta-2. Like the Eta-2, its cockpit control surfaces and instrumentation are similar to those of the TIE Advanced piloted by Vader in ANH, complete with a somewhat Sithly red-on-black appearance. Even with these TIE-associated details aside, the Eta-2 design first flew across the screen as the noble steeds of two valiant Jedi Knights in the opening shots of ROTS, accompanied by a rousing yet militaristic rendition of the Force Theme. Yoda's proto-TIE is part of the same overall militarised Jedi/Republic aesthetic as the Eta-2. It symbolises Yoda in the Clone Wars - small and potent, slightly endearing, yet ultimately a war leader.

    This TIE-like mode of conveyance is juxtaposed with the journey of enlightenment which Yoda undertakes. When he approaches the midichlorian/Priestess homeworld, his instrumentation ceases to display its information in the sinister glowing red font; it merely displays white noise. Throughout the Yoda arc, there's a strange yet not altogether unpleasant dissonance surrounding Yoda's proto-TIE. We hear Qui-Gon Jinn's voice calling forward from TPM to Yoda as he boards a vehicle that's a few incremental steps away from being a TIE Interceptor from ROTJ, on a planet where he has gone through an enlightening, revelatory experience. This planet is also where Yoda will pass on his wisdom to Luke and ultimately pass into the Force, not as the great war leader in his armed-and-dangerous proto-TIE, but as a sage who denounces the idea of wars making oneself great. The proto-TIE symbolises where Yoda, the Jedi Order, the Galactic Republic and the GFFA are all at at this point in time in TCW; all while the arc looks forward to the future of the OT and to the past of TPM and the Old Republic era, the proto-TIE serves as a reminder of and grounding in the temporal setting.

    I definitely wouldn't trade the TIE-like design of Yoda's fighter for anything else. The clear aesthetic similarities between the Republic and Empire are part of the appeal of the Clone Wars and TCW. We see heroic clone characters like Fives, who wears a Phase II helmet with a frontal aspect that's reminiscent of the stormtroopers' skull masks. Between S1 and S3 and over the course of some fairly upbeat stories, Anakin and Obi-Wan wear breastplates that resemble that worn by the cybernetic Darth Vader, with the clone snowtroopers and sandtroopers wearing the same sort of ribbed garments with their armour plates as Vader. Of course, the Venator-, Acclamator- and Arquitens-class ships call forward to the imposing ISD. These are all foreboding reminders of what is to come, but in the context of the aesthetic of the OT-era Empire, the Republic in TCW also presents a lost vision of what might have been. The sight of a dagger-shaped Kuat ship and its white-armoured occupants bringing humanitarian aid rather than oppression to a troubled people (Mercy Mission), and the spectacle of a prototypic form of the TIE series carrying a Jedi Master on a journey of enlightenment (the Yoda arc) heighten the tragedy of the Rise of the Empire.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Apr 5, 2014
  8. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    The only thing that I can think of to counter this is that when Dooku first unleashes Force lightning at Yoda, Yoda responds with "the Dark Side I sense in you." Which to me just seems odd, if Force lightning was inherently a Sith technique, that would be a dead give away and Yoda would just kind of look like an idiot if he's relying on his senses to tell him something that his sight made perfectly clear.
    Contessa and Mia Mesharad like this.
  9. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Yes, Tarkas I read your post.
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    It depends on whether one believes that any dark Force user is a Sith. But it sure as hell isn't a Light Side power. And everyone we saw using it in the films was a Sith.

    The EU is a bit different but Jaina using it in Dark Journey because she was "dabbling" or something, was just stupid.

    Force lightning was never intended to be a power someone can use just because they're pissed off.

    (But being pissed off also gives the power to survive bisection so who knows. I'd like to spend five minutes pissed off in the GFFA.)
  11. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    Maybe that would be a good topic, go back to stuff that works and gives us another scapegoat to beat around. Maul TCW's greatest villain. An honorary OC who had the power to take on the heroes and also gave is a good vs evil rivalry with Obi-wan which was something we were sorely lacking. Every superhero needs a villain right? Who would of thought Maul would be smart enough to use Deathwatch to recruit and army. His deserts were evilly killing Obi-wan girl friend infront of him and where we last left off looks like it really sucks to live in Sundari. I hate to admit it, hurts but Maul was one of the best things to happen to TCW. Where do you guys stand on that?
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    My stance is that I thought (and still think) it was stupid to resurrect him but I ended up liking or at least being OK with what the show did with him.

    Maul gave us Brothers, Revenge, Eminence and The Lawless, which made his return worthwhile.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Apr 5, 2014
  13. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    In the end. I like the way Savage was handled. I've talked it plenty with a certain dark lord whose running around. While it would have been cool if Maul has not out shown Savage... man Oppress could have been more appropriate , he was always the one getting oppressed a used even by his own Brother. Savage was never supposed to be a monster either. A animalistic brute that just throttles everyone and guts people with his horns. He's not really evil like Maul. This is what makes his death so well done.
    Last edited by Seerow, Apr 5, 2014
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  14. 07jonesj Force Ghost

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    Aug 16, 2010
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    Whenever Maul was on-screen, I actually felt that he was going to get **** done, which cannot be said for the majority of TCW villains. He was effective. I still hate the fact that they had Maul survive his bisection in TPM - it stretches my suspension of disbelief and then some - but the execution was brilliant, and I enjoy his episodes.

    Perhaps that's all that really matters.
  15. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    Don't comic book villains often keep coming back no matter how many times and how thoroughly they are killed off? I felt the same way everytime Maul was on screen. That all hell was going to break loose. The **** would hit the fan, and the good guys might actually get there asses handed to them. The only other villain I can say this about is Cad Bane.
  16. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I can see how most would see Lightning as Dark Side talent but I don't. Nor did I like Maul surviving. Though Savage was at least someone I could empathise with.
  17. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    I think most people were pretty pissed off Maul survived but I think what counts at the end is how it was actually handled well. The Shadow Conspiracy arc was greats and a villain to get **** done was desperately needed in TCW. I preach all the time how TCW need more OCs, particularly bad guy OCs and Maul was as close as we got.

    I have always thought lightening was a darkside thing. I don't recall seeing a Jedi use lightning. It makes sense either could do it if its just using the force to create raw energy but I thought it was simply an art considered 'dark'. Maybe because its a form of alchemy which to many is associated with evil.
  18. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

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    I think a big reason people call Force Lighting a dark side power is because it's inherently aggressive in its nature. It's sole function is destruction, whether that's blowing up a droid or killing a living person. Compared to telekinesis, which has a variety of functions. Sure, it can be used in an aggressive manner, but for the most part it's simply used to move things around, by both Jedi and Sith.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I can't imagine a light-side use for Force lightning nor have I ever read of one.
  20. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    Yeah, that makes sense. Dammit why didn't I think of that?
  21. Sgt Crowfield Chosen One

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    And that's why you automatically get dark side points for using it in the WEG Star Wars roleplaying game ^^.
    Anzeroth2112 likes this.
  22. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Interesting perceptions but I still don't agree. Lightning doesn't have to be destructive or aggressive it is also a source of illumination and light.
  23. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

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    Force Lighting was also difficult to be used if one was not properly trained.
    Several Jedi that became Dark Jedi had little skill in using force lighting in combat, until they had time to master it properly. A skilful practitioner of Force Lighting could stun or even kill a person upon contact.
    Generally, Force Lighting required much training before it became effective. Sidious had been practising for years and that is why he was able to use his power in such a powerful manner. However, when Galen Marek was still in training, his force lighting caused little pain to his enemies, sometimes not even immobilizing them.
    So, it could have been a lack of skill that made the Jedi not use it; especially during that Era, where the Jedi had not encountered a real threat for over a thousand of years. Teaching such a power to padawans would have been seen useless.

    It is difficult to argue whether Force Lighting is affiliated with the Darkside or the Lightside. Just because mostly Sith use it, does not mean it is solely a Darkside power.
    Because of its aggressive nature Force Lighting cannot be used for any other reason than to kill or immobilize an opponent.
    The former clearly does not fall under power of the Light Side, but the latter can. The immobilization of an opponent rather than killing him is definitely affiliated with the Light-Side. It is the same as using stun bolts, rather than actual ones, while shooting at a criminal. The same ones that the Clones used against Ahsoka in the last episodes of Season 5.

    Even though the movies has shown Force Lighting to be mostly used by the Sith, that does not mean that Jedi do not employ it, nor does it mean that once they do they are immediately evil and Sith.

    I cannot remember all the Jedi that used Force Lighting but some of them are: Lian Dray against Sindra, Revan and many of his Jedi followers during the Mandalorian Wars, Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, Jaina Solo and Quinlan Vos (I am not sure of the last one, so please correct me if I am wrong).

    The best example of Force Lighting used as a Light-Side power is when Plo Koon used it to immobilize Pommel, a criminal that was escaping. Although, someone can argue that he could have also lifted him with Telekinesis rather than shocking him…

    Now, there are two additional issues to consider.
    1.Many of the above used of Force Lighting have been named differently; i.e. Plo Kloon called his power Electric Judgement, while Luke, Mara and Kyle Kattarn named theirs as Emerald Lighting. So one could argue that they are not the same with Force Lighting.
    I completely disagree with the statement above, and I believe that in its core those power were identical to Force Lighting. I believe that those names, were used just so Jedi would not be affiliated with Force Lighting, which was commonly called Sith Lighting and was strongly connected with (shockingly) the Sith.

    2.Does the use of Force Lighting exclude one from being a Light Side user?
    This has been a very difficult question for me to answer over the years that I spent thinking about it.
    If Force Lighting was used as self-defence by a Jedi, what does that make him/her?
    If Force Lighting was used to immobilize someone is that a Light Side use of that power? Some would argue that it’s not because the target still experiences excruciating pain before passing out.


    There are just so many questions popping in my head every time I think about this issue that I always think I have the answer, but I always change my mind…
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 6, 2014
  24. Nexumaster Force Ghost

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    Feb 21, 2005
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    I think that it's a bit of a shame that Savage really took a backseat when Maul was introduced and took over; he turned more and more into a somewhat voiceless secondary "background" character and a tool to Maul and the story than an actual character like he was prior to that (it was pretty apparent once the Mauldalore arc got going). I feel that they could have handled him better alongside Maul than they did.
    Last edited by Nexumaster, Apr 6, 2014
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I would have preferred that the show leave Maul dead and have Savage avenging Obi-Wan. No resurrection scenario and Savage would have had more character development. Win-win.

    But then we wouldn't have gotten "Brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother brother".

    And I'm not sure if Eminence and The Lawless would have been better or worse with only Savage. The Sidious scene certainly would not have been the same.