Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
That exactly the problem. We do not know. We can only speculate.
Did Cody remain one of the top commanders in the Empire because of his beliefs, that the Jedi actually did try to take over and he and his brothers was suppressing a rebellion, or is that thought programmed into his brain?
On a sidenote, did anyone wonder why the droid army was not composed of deadlier droids?
For instance droid commandos. I mean, the only reason those droids were not destroyed as easily as others, is because the keep dodging the laser bolts. Super-battle droids and other droids just marched forward, towards enemy fire...
And yet, they were used only on certain occasions.
Nevertheless, Droidekas were also proven to be a challenge. It seems that clones were able to overcome it by placing droid pumpers within their shield. However, without that kind of firepower, or any king of heavy ordnance, clones can do nothing against their shields.
Why was the CIS Army not composed purely by Droidekas, Droid Commandow, and some of the ordinary droids of the army (cannot remember their name)?
Do you think this was something done by Palpatine so that the CIS would not expand so rapidly that the Republic was unable to compete? But if that was the case, Palpatine would want the Republic to think it is losing the war, so that they grant him more executive powers.
While we're on the Commando Droids. Back in S1 I thought they were great. Cool, threatening and unique...then they started to use them all the time. Talk about villain decay.
Something was done by the show's writers to ensure that the CIS could not expand so rapidly as to have the Republic actually lose. That's why the droids were reduced to nothing but terrible "comedy". The entire CIS was for the most part.
It's too bad, because in Karen Miller's books the magna guards were scary as hell.
Trench was a good villain though. Also I just watched An Old Friend and Rise of Clovis. Embo was cool just like he was in Bounty Hunters. I was surprised at how brutal Anakin was but It was good foreshadowing to ROTS especially with the "you have no say in this" line.
God dang it, still need to see the Clovis Arc
Those more advanced droids were expensive and thats why they could not mass produce them.
Cost. Battle droids, especially the more powerful ones such as Droidekas, cost a bit of money to make. It was much cheaper to make a battalion of B1 Battle Droids than a bunch of Droidekas.
Palpatine may have been able to afford it, but even so, if all the droids were extremely powerful and they were re-activated by some Separatists who survived the War, they could be a bit of a threat to the Empire if used effectively.
I know we've talked about Ahsoka a lot but I did have one question. What the hell were the Jedi thinking sending a 14 year old into a galactic war. Did they not think it would have a major impact on her? Looking back on all this and the episodes I have come to despise the Jedi and what they stand for. It's like what the FFFFFFFFFFF
But to stay on topic. It is the same reason why most countries use older tanks and such. Costs were too high. I know Palpatine controlled everything but money is always an issue
The Jedi Order had not seen a galactic war for almost 1000 years. Before the Clone Wars, for a padawn to become a Jedi Knight, he/she would be appointed to a Jedi Master to receive training. Back then, the missions of the Jedi did not involve space dogfights or planetary invasions, so this policy became a prerequisite before a padawn could become a Jedi knight. Of course this tradition was always applied ever since the existence of a Jedi Order during both peace and war.
However, in the Old Republic, Jedi padawans faced other challenges (e.g. hunting criminals in Coruscant) first before being allowed to participate in the war (whenever there was a war). I found it very shocking that Ahsoka was allowed to participate into the war so young. Bariss as well. It is one thing to train Jedi for combat and another to send them to the front lines.
A better approach would have been to allow padawans to participate in the war, but not fight alongside the clones, like the Jedi Masters did. Maybe as learners in Venator-class cruisers under the guidance of admirals; or escorting clones in low-risk missions.
But certainly not on the second Geonosian invasion, nor the defense of Cristophisis.
Right. They could have provided security duty for certain senators going on diplomatic mission etc but for her to see the carnage that came with her having to lead a full fighter squad against a better opponent is just absurd. She was crushed at the end of that episode. Just makes me hate them more after now seeing what they did to Anakin in the end.
Don't blame the Jedi, blame the writers. They wanted Ahsoka in combat so she could be at the forefront of the story. If she were not in combat, she could not be at the forefront of the story unless there was no war in The Clone Wars.
It's also worth noting yet again that the Jedi did what they could to avoid being involved in the war at all, aside from saying "**** you, Chancellor." And if they had done that I am sure they would have been accused by viewers of being belligerent and not following the Code.
The Jedi are damned if they do, damned if they don't both in universe and out of it, but according to several Filoni interviews, that's how he wanted it so none of this commentary surprises me.
As far as Anakin, LOL. The only thing they did to Anakin was ask him to follow the same rules that everyone else followed. The fact that he thought he was above those rules was not their fault.
That's the issue. He was not like everyone else. No one was like Anakin in the history of the Order and they knew that. They knew he formed attachments and how it became an issue for him. They did nothing to address it but just say "hate leads to anger etc". He was never taught by anyone of them how to handle his feelings just suppress them. THAT is the issue I have with how they handled Anakin and thus attributed to his fall to the Dark Side
I concur, Good Hand. Well stated.
Until we get a new Blu-Ray with a deleted scene showing the Jedi Council holding Anakin at saber point and telling him "Join Palpatine or die," there is no way in hell that I'm blaming anyone for Anakin's fall but Anakin himself and Palpatine for manipulating him into it.
Actually I'd probably still blame Anakin and Palpatine.
Anakin had the opportunity to leave the Order at any time if he didn't want to follow their rules. The Order was under no obligation to change the entire structure of their organization for one kid who was upset because he couldn't get his way.
Letting him check on his mom would have been a nice thing to do but they were not obligated to do it nor are they to blame for Anakin's behavior. As far as letting him marry Padme...oh hell no. If it were that important to him, he could have left the Order and married her. He was considered a hero on Naboo and I have no doubt that he would have gotten a job as a pilot there. And they would not have had to hide their marriage, which would have been easier on both of them.
But Anakin thought he was entitled to be a married Jedi and so he'd rather stay in the Order and pout about rules that he had known about for years, and that had worked for a millennia before Palpatine started pulling his ****.
I'm to the point where I'd laugh my ass off at an Ultimate Edition with a Mace Windu line that says "Qui-Gon should have left your whiny ungrateful ass on Tatooine."
ROTJ Anakin, all five minutes of him, and TCW Anakin are the ones I like.
Good points but again they put him on this pedestal that he was "The Chosen One" and like everyone of his other attachments he formed one with the Order itself. Everyone is at fault and I'm taking away Anakin's own downfall from him. But the Jedi could have done more. Mace even says that they have fallen for the ways of the Force. Hell if Anakin wasn't around Palpatine still would have run the tables on them anyway. Anakin was the one who killed Dooku no one else did. The Jedi were an enigma of themselves from "1,000" years ago. They were worried more about their politcal image then what they were to begin with. The Jedi could have left Coruscant and said **** you Chancellor and end it right there. In reality they did more harm than good in the end because it was a Jedi who fell to the dark side and created destruction.
Yeah, you're still blaming the Jedi for Anakin's behavior.
And Anakin is to be praised for killing Dooku? For murdering a man who had no hands and was on his knees in surrender? ROTFLMAO. Even Anakin knew that was wrong. In the original script, that was his initiation into the Dark Side.
Palpatine probably would have behaved the same had Anakin not been around but that has nothing to do with this argument. Palpatine is responsible for the mass slaughter of the Jedi as he was the one who started the war, set himself up as a dictator and issued Order 66. Anakin is responsible for his part in the mass slaughter but Palpatine is responsible for initializing it, and no doubt he would have done so anyway.
Which is why I alternately LOL and beat my head against a wall when people start blaming the Jedi for Order 66. Gotta love the "blame the victim" mentality.
And no, the Jedi could not have said "**** you Chancellor" and left Coruscant. Where do you think their funding comes from? The Ewoks? The Hutts?
And as I said, the discussion about how un-Jedi-like they were for cursing at Palpatine would have been both amusing and headdesk-worthy.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't, both in and out of universe.
"Anakin was the one who killed Dooku no one else did" I made that statement because just showing how the Jedi would have fallen because Palpatine would still have an apprentice and I sure wasn't giving him praise
Funds for what? They were a possession less people. No attachments remember? Everyone was a victim in this. The opinionated topic I started was that I just don't like the Jedi which is an opinion not an argument. The Jedi were flawed and that is abundantly clear and that this topic that we are speaking on now. They led to their own downfall because they refused to change.
So the reason I brought Palpatine up was because they couldn't sense him. They had fallen from the strength in the Force.
I'm not attacking you. This is not a personal argument nor should it become one.
And I have never made the argument that the Jedi would not have been subject to Palpatine's genocide if Anakin had not been in the picture. I have no doubt that Palpatine would have pulled his **** anyway. But that's not the point.
And their downfall didn't happen because they refused to change, their downfall happened because a Sith Lord took over the government and murdered them.
As far as "no attachments"--even possession-less people have to eat. And they didn't run around naked; even if they only owned a couple of robes, tunics and pants, they had to wash them. They also had ships that they travelled in to go from one peacekeeping mission to another. And the missions themselves required funds. Where do you think Qui-Gon got the Republic ditaris to try to bargain with Watto?
Monks and nuns, also technically "possession less", have (or had, not sure how many exist anymore), their needs funded by the church. If any of them said "**** you Pope Francis," their source of funding would be cut off.
People still would have lent them aid. They had friends everywhere. They would have no longer gone on missions because those were sent out through the Republic to quell the Separatist onslaught. They could have gotten real jobs too but that is just playing the devil's advocate. They clouded their judgment by caring more of their public perception than anything else and making sure they were in the good graces of the Senate. They became dependent and attached to the Republic. They could have just sent the admirals and the trained clones out to fight but they decided to put the Knights and Padawans on the front lines when that clearly was not what the Jedi Order is all about. They were peacekeepers and negotiators not warriors.
I guess my original comment "what they did to Anakin" should have been more "what they didn't do". Anakin was solely responsible for his own atrocities and savage murders. Did the Jedi train him as well as they could have, no I don't think so because even though the dubbed him "The Chosen One" he was more than a hindrance and burden. They didn't help him understand his attachments at all and why they would have ultimately led to his downfall. No one understood them and how at his lowest point he was easily manipulated. It took his son to reason and see the good that had always been in him to get him to fall from the dark side. His son understood him and the Jedi never did.
Again...blaming the Jedi for a war they did not want to be a part of.
Mace Windu said the same thing you did, in front of Palpatine. I'm not sure how the assumption got started that the Jedi wanted to fight this war, that they led the clone army for ****s and giggles, or that they were in any way responsible for a war that Palpatine orchestrated and the Senate agreed to.
The Senate were in a far better position to stop the war than the Jedi were, they chose not to stop it, but somehow it's all the Jedi's fault? LOL.
I have explained why the Jedi telling Palpatine to go **** himself was not a viable option, as amusing as the scene would have been. They were in a similar situation as someone in our world who might hate his or her boss but not exactly gave a choice about leaving the job unless another one is available. "I'll just go mooch off my friends" is not an option that responsible adults should consider in such a scenario.
So...another option besides telling Palpatine to go **** himself, regarding what the Jedi should have done differently during the war.
For sure. I work in the mortgage industry and see clients have those issues all the time. But your boss is committing atrocities and you (not you but our fictitious worker) are ok with that? Because you need the money? What does that say about you (again the factitious worker) and were your allegiances lie? It shows that money is more important to you and that you are more attached to yourself than anything else. What about sensing or realizing that something is wrong and making arrangements (firing up that resume) in order to remove yourself from the situation. Like I said before they became dependent and as such the hand that feed them killed them. You should never compromise what you believe in or stand for just for some job. They could have said no and they chose not to so they weren't Jedi anymore but Palpatine and the Republics puppets and robots in a sense.
Last thing and I'll leave this be. I never said they wanted to be in the war but they turned a blind eye and followed again even though cursing the Chancellor and the Senate along the way. It still does not make it right and absolve them from blame. They supported the war by allowing the Jedi fight alongside the clone army. They protested behind closed doors but still sat there with their tale between their legs.
Yeah, money is kind of important for survival in our world. That's not being "attached to yourself," that's reality, even if the hand that signs your check belongs to an ***hole.
I'm thankful that I'm not personally in that situation but I'll be damned if I'm going to judge the moral fiber of anyone who is.
"Firing up the resume" and trying to get out of the situation is a good idea in our world, not so much for morality reasons but for the mental well-being of the person working for the ***hole; but I'm still not passing judgment on people who feel stuck in the current economy.
As far as the Jedi, for one thing it all happened pretty fast, I think the time frame of AOTC happened over a period of a couple of weeks. It seemed to me that the Jedi were trying to do their jobs as peacekeepers by ending the war as quickly as possible.
I'm also not sure the Republic in wartime had resources to accommodate resumes sent out by 10,000 Jedi, especially in such a short period of time. I think Anakin could have easily been hired as I mentioned earlier but I don't know who else could have, much less in such great numbers.
just finished watching the entire series and i have to say it really grew on me. i hope rebels is as good.