Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I think we all agree everyone was "complicit" in some sense, but that's true of real life "luck sucks" situations, too. I think most of us agree the Jedi didn't give Anakin what he wanted - but here's where we differ.

    Were the Jedi aware of how serious his issues were? (I don't think so, YMMV).

    Did Anakin make any effort to seek counseling (other than ego-stroking Palps)? Here, I'm largely talking the "black hole years" of which not one of us knows for sure - his first few years in the Temple.

    Did Palps encourage Anakin to hide his turmoil because the mean old Jedi would "turn him out" or something (most likely).

    Even if the Jedi dismissed his concerns, was it out of "tough **** kid, suck it up" or because they tried to handle it the best they knew, and that wasn't the best way?

    And an important point: Palps encouraged Anakin to think he was entitled to what he wanted - and that's not really how it works. There's little one is entitled to, and it's equally true that one doesn't always get what one earns (though of course, the Jedi "undervalued and underappreciated" Anakin per Palps).

    Real life parents and institutions make mistakes, but most kids grow up fine. Even those who end up doing horrible things, often were "raised right" but something went sideways. If that real life person murdered his neighbor, her husband, his parents - would we blame the neighbor? The husband? The parents?
  2. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    For me the Jedi tried to do their best in rectifying the concerns of Anakin’s attachments. After AOTC, I do not think that the Jedi had any chance in altering Anakin’s course to the Dark Side. He had already fallen in love with Padme and his participation in the clone wars did nothing more than to fuel his rage. The Jedi couldn't have helped him or address his issues. After all, the Republic was at war, the Jedi were generals and at the time, the threat of losing the war was graver than focusing on Anakin.

    Obviously there was no way the Jedi Order could have foreseen the consequences of Anakin’s attachments. Worst case, he defies the order and leaves; best case, he understands how his attachments can lead to the Dark Side and he breaks them. That is probably how the Council saw it.The fact that the latter was never a viable is option is due to two things:

    1. Palpatine always encouraged him to follow his emotions and to not adhere to the teaching of the Jedi
    2. This for me is much more important. It seems that even though Anakin followed a proper Jedi training after the events of TPM under the guidance of Obi-Wan. Somehow, his training did not convey a message strong or clear enough for him to understand how forming attachments can be a path to the Dark Side.

    Thus, in my opinion, it was the earlier years of Anakin’s Jedi training that failed to teach him properly about the danger of emotions and forming attachments. Because if they did, then he shouldn't have been attracted to Padme the first time he met her (after TPM) inside the 500 Republica.
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 19, 2014
    Vader'sGoodHand likes this.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't see that as the Jedi's fault at all. I'm not sure what else they were supposed to do to emphasize to Anakin how important non-attachment was, especially with Palpatine telling him that his emotions made him special and that he was entitled to feel as passionately as he damn well pleased.

    That was the quick and easy path. Nobody wants to learn emotional control; there is something that feels good about letting unbridled passion run wild. Anakin wanted that; the Jedi tried to explain that it was dangerous and why, but Palpatine told him that they were wrong and just somehow did not "get" Anakin.

    Anakin, being immature and more than occasionally stupid, did not recognize that Palpatine was intentionally blowing sunshine up as his ass as opposed to actually looking out for his best interests.

    As far as not being attracted to Padme--I'm not attracted to women and even I know that Anakin would have to be dead to not find her attractive. What he did about it was the problem, not the attraction itself. And again, that was Palpatine telling him he was entitled. I don't exactly think it was coincidental that Palpatine "suggested" that Obi-Wan be assigned to Padme after her assassination attempt.

    This whole conversation reminds me of the Jeff Foxworthy routine in which he talks about kids growing up: "You do your best to raise them right only to have them go on Oprah and talk about how you ruined their lives. Just for once I wish someone would go on one of these talk shows and say, 'You know, my Mom was alright, my Dad was alright, I'm just a ****head.'"

    ROTS Anakin--Obi-Wan was alright, the Council was alright, you're just a ****head.
    Valairy Scot and Heero_Yuy like this.
  4. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    You present good points, but I still think that the Jedi should have prepared him better for resisting the temptations of Palpatine. It is difficult, Palpatine is definitely to blame as well, but other Jedi faced similar temptations and overcame them.
    Obi-Wan did not attack Maul when he was chocking Satene. Kit Fisto preferred to retreat when fighting Grievous, even if he had killed his former apprentice.

    Anakin's immaturity may have been what made him believe that Palpatine was a friend and advisor to him. But for me, it was also the fact that Anakin preferred to talk about his attachments with the chancellor rather than the Jedi. Why? Because probably everytime he brought his mother up, the Council would tell him how dangerous it is to be attached to someone and recite Yoda's words of «fear leads to suffering etc» in PTM. Anakin realized that there was no discussion on the topic and sought others for guidance. Palpatine already had planned in turning him, Anakin was searching for someone who understands him, and voila.
    Obi-Wan should have played the role that Palpatine supposedly played. He coming this close to form a relationship with Satele, should have been the ideal person for Anakin to turn to.
    Vader'sGoodHand likes this.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Other Jedi were not singled out by Palpatine for ass-kissing.

    And yes, Anakin went to Palpatine because Palpatine told him what he wanted to hear. I have seen Palpatine compared to the benevolent parent post-divorce. The parent who lets the kids do whatever the hell they want and buys them toys so they will still like him (or her).

    In that situation, it is not the responsibility of the parent who still has rules, to bend the rules to keep the children from running to the benevolent parent.

    The Jedi told him what he needed to hear, not what he wanted to hear, and it was not their responsibility to change their message to accommodate Anakin's feelings.

    As far as Obi-Wan, because he was able to set aside his feelings for Satine, Anakin should have not pretended that Obi-Wan "just didn't understand" when he obviously did, and maybe should have taken his instruction a little more seriously, even if it wasn't as warm and fuzzy as what Palpatine told him.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  6. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    For me it actually was their responsibility; not to change the message, but the way they convey the message. Saying that forming attachments will lead to the dark side without any kind of thorough explanation does not suffice; and clearly it didn't for Anakin.
    Though I am not familiar whether such an explanation was given to Anakin during his first years in the Temple. If yes, and Anakin chose to disregard it nonetheless, then he and Palatine are to be blamed for Anakin becoming Vader.

    Apart from this, I agree with the rest of your post.
    Vader'sGoodHand likes this.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Anakin seemed fully aware of the no-attachment message and its reasoning when he had his conversation with Padme on the refugee ship.

    There is a horrible lack of material between TPM and AOTC but there is nothing indicating to me that the Jedi should change their methodology to accommodate Anakin's whims.
  8. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 3
    Everyone is making awesome points. In AOTC that was Anakin's first time seeing her in 10 years now it is a movie and not a tv show so they have to rush them falling in love to make a point but prior to that it seemed his only attachment he had formed was to his mother. He had never fallen in love before just like (I know AF1983 will hate this so bear with me) Ahsoka in the Onderon Arc so he did not know how to handle his feelings. It did not help he got put on guard duty as well. In my earlier post I said that I hate the Jedi. Hate is an extremely strong word after spending the night thinking about I would just have to say I don't agree with their teachings. Just to clear that point up. One issue some parents have is just saying don't do this and not truly explaining why to the child's point of view. Anakin didn't understand why or the real meaning behind it. Was he stubborn and arrogant .....100%. Maybe another big thing was that they didn't know about padme. The Clone Wars show they were able to see him grow attached to his Palawan but he grew attached to Padme in secret. After seeing the way Obi wan felt about Satine Anakin should have went to talk to him. Again they really don't address attachments in the movie other than in TPM. He still should have been more comfortable opening up to Obi wan and maybe he didn't because he knew what they were going to say and not listen to him. They just lacked understanding
    Last edited by Vader'sGoodHand, Apr 19, 2014
  9. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    I think that understanding is a hit of a harsh word. It is not that the Jedi Order lacked understanding regarding Anakin's attachments or attachments in general. Rather, their premise that attachments lead to the Dark Side and that that is not debatable is the reason Anakin avoided opening up to a Jedi.
    He thought that by bringing the issue up, they would immediately dismiss it and frown upon such actions.
    But you cannot blame them for sticking to their code, which has not changed or altered for 4000 years. They thought that since it survived the test of time, it was the correct code to follow.
    Last edited by Anzeroth2112, Apr 19, 2014
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  10. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    @Vader'sGoodHand The Clone Wars show they were able to see him grow attached to his Palawan but he grew attached to Padme in secret.
    So you're saying Anakin publicly loved Ahsoka?

    Dave: Move over, Padme!
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 19, 2014
  11. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Anzeroth: But that's precisely the point. The Jedi had grown stagnant and unwilling or unable to change when the need arose. Good Hand is correct that the Jedi's unwillingness or inability to deal with Anakin's differentness did contribute to his fall and their demise.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, Apr 19, 2014
    Vader'sGoodHand likes this.
  12. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 3
    @anzeroth
    Great point but Who Anakin was had never shown up before in their 4000 years. Sure a code can work but maybe they didn't fully understand how to handle Anakin. In TpM they saw there was a darkness in him. Heck they said he was to old to come into the Temple in the first place but they flexed the rules in that regard. The fact that at his age 9 compared to other younglings 3(? Not sure when the younglings come to the template) he was able to form an attachment and understanding of that attachment. I think that is a vital part in the training and believing that the Code would essentially be a "we'll figure it out cause it hasn't failed us yet". Now there is not much written or produced showing them in this scenario before but it seemed to need special attention but they just treated him like everyone else. I'm NOT saying give him everything he wants but highlight his training on something different or more focused on attachments since that was his main attachment at the time.
    Last edited by Vader'sGoodHand, Apr 19, 2014
  13. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 3
    No I meant as a sister. In the end of the arc where she was hunted by the bounty hunter look at how Anakin handled it. PLO saw it and at the end of the episode Yoda did as well.
    Revanfan1 and GGrievous like this.
  14. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Yeah, I know what you meant, but it sounded wrong. ;)
  15. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 3

    Stirring that pot lol
    GGrievous likes this.
  16. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    That's Dave's job.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  17. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Wonderful discussion everyone - this "warms my heart." And each and every point made is on the button, yet only a portion of the ultimate "cause" - it was the totality of all that was the trigger point.

    Anakin DID come in with attachments already; something the Jedi did not understand (I'm not saying did not wish to understand, but merely didn't understand) and handled it as best they knew. Concurrently, Palps was already whispering to Anakin, telling him the Jedi were wrong, to not expect understanding and help from them, twisting their messages (which could have been phrased better) to make it seem they were harsh and uncaring.

    AF, I'm the one who initially brought up the idea that Palps is the "generous, fun post-divorce parent" and the Jedi Order the "make your bed, do your homework, then you can watch TV" custodial parent. In real life, that can mess kids up.

    In short, Anakin was getting mixed messages. His heart urged him to follow Palps teachings, his mind, I think, was torn and at a young age, I have no problem with that kind of indecision. By AoTC he was in a bit of internal conflict over what he perceived to be "correct" and largely (far from entirely) agreed with, and what he wanted (and was entitled to according to his long time mentor Palps).

    I know a good many disagree with what I'm saying next, but I don't think Anakin ever "got" the attachment rule. I perceive it as "don't give in to your feelings" - not "stifle them." Sure, many interpret it that way: Yoda's "mourn them do not" and Obi-Wan's "your feelings betray you," etc. But we do see Yoda mourn and yet avenge them not, Obi-Wan's reassuring Anakin that Padme "was glad to see him." Some of that may be due to the fact that Obi-Wan is a rather reserved character and many see that personality type as cold and unfeeling. Others, like me, see it as a "still waters run deep."
  18. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    :D I apparently argued something that I did not believe in. My bad. It is late here and I cannot edit my previous post now.
    I completely agree with what you said and the sam goes for Vader's Good Hand.

    Disregard my previous post completely. :)
    Vader'sGoodHand likes this.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    If the Jedi were "unable" to change, how the hell is it their fault that Palpatine had them wiped out or that Anakin turned on them?

    I definitely don't think they were unwilling to change, I just don't think they saw a need until it was too late. They weren't holding onto their principles because they were right, dammit, and everyone else was just stupid (that's the way I see some religious institutions in our world clinging to their outdated principles). They kept those rules because people generally tend to keep what works for them and has been working for them until they see a need to change it.

    When only 20 people leave or fall out of tens of thousands over several millennia, that's not a reason to change.

    If they made a mistake, it would be in either training Anakin in the first place or allowing him access to Palpatine. But they had no real way of knowing about Palpatine.

    @Valairy Scot : I thought it might have been you with the divorce analogy but I wasn't sure. It was mostly you and @CT-867-5309 who made me rethink my old opinions on this issue in various movie forum discussions .

    The Jedi had no clue how to help Anakin work through his attachment issues and could not possibly have a clue, having never dealt with someone like him. Which is why I say that if they made a mistake, it was in training him in the first place.

    But I hardly think they deserve condemnation for taking him out of slavery and giving him a chance, even if that chance didn't involve the warm fuzzies and ego-stroking that he obviously craved.

    FWIW there's nothing wrong with warm fuzzies but that's not the way everyone rolls. Ego-stroking is generally a problem though.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  20. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    They weren't thinking anything in regard to Ahsoka specifically, this was just their way of doing things. In Ep. II Anakin is a similar age and takes part in the war, and in TCW episodes like Weapons Factory and Monster other Padawans that age (and younger) are seen taking part in the war.

    Uh... what? Can you possibly be serious about this? They were not making an exception for Ahsoka at all, see above examples. I know you know this...
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's not what I said. I said that the writers put Ahsoka in combat because the show was about combat and they could not prominently feature her without putting her in combat. Not that there was an in-universe exception made for her.
    Dark Lord Tarkas likes this.
  22. Grievousdude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 3
    Finished watching the Clovis arc and watched The Disappeared parts 1 and 2. Thorn's Last stand in Crisis at the Heart was really cool( in fact he'll probably be my next avatar). The Disappeared episodes were good too and a nice change of pace from the dark episodes of the rest of the season. I've never hated Jar Jar to start with but after watching those episodes I now have respect for him that I didn't have before. I never even imagined a Mace and Jar Jar team up but I'm glad we got it.
  23. superstardestroyer-1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    I just finished watching the entire Clone Wars series front to back from seasons 1-6 and included the Tartakovsky series. I know most now say that the Tartakovsky series is non-canon, but I disagree.

    Honestly, I find that you almost have to include the Tartakovsky series for the 2008 series to make any sense and seem complete. The micro series simply answers too many questions and introduces too many characters that were prominent in the CGI series to ignore.

    Without the micro series, we don't know how Anakin went from being a Padawan to a Knight. Ventress showing up and the characters acting like they've encountered her before in the CGI series makes no sense without the micro series. There is just too much information about the opening stages of the war that the new series didn't cover.

    In a perfect world, I'd like to have seen the CGI series take us all the way to Episode III; however, since Disney had to go and be greedy Disney and cancel a good thing, we have to work with what we have. I think the Tartakovsky series should be re-edited into 2 parts and re-released on dvd and blu-ray. blu-ray for sure.

    Make part 1 everything prior to the Clone Wars CGI series, and then make part 2 everything from the outer rim sieges to the opening crawl of episode III. When taken together, it really does make a pretty coherent story.

    I honestly found very few plot holes created in the micro series by the CGI series. Maybe just the mon cal scene, but that can be retconned as there being 2 major skirmishes with the mon cal's.

    Just my thoughts.
  24. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    It's still canon. There hasn't been any official announcement yet, but, sadly, I'm sure that it's on the butcher block.

    Both the micro series and TCW can coexist imho. Wookieepedia does this:

    AOTC
    Clone Wars Chapters 1-21
    TCW
    Clone Wars Chapters 22-25
    ROTS
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 20, 2014
  25. Grievousdude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 3
    I still consider a lot of the micro series canon except for obvious things like the death of Ventress.