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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

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  1. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    I just don't agree with the leap from having flaws/not being perfect to being horrible, either in the actions of the Jedi Council in TCW, or, by extension, what I'd guess DF thinks of them.
     
  2. Dameron

    Dameron Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 8, 2014
    To me, the problem was not that the Jedi were shown as being beyond awful -- they weren't -- but that the examination of their flaws came to take up so much of our time and attention. Make them imperfect, sure. They're human (or, well, whatever they are). They were never perfect in the first place. Even our introduction to the Jedi, in Ben's hut, involves a story of their failures and lost glories. But our understanding of the GFFA is through a small window of films and episodes, and too much of our view was dedicated to the unpopular or unsuccessful aspects of the Jedi and their teachings being held up for an extended booing. It's become a loose tooth that the creators can't stop wiggling.
     
  3. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013
    That is exactly what I am referring to.

    Well said =D=
     
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  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Exactly. It was, as I said, blatantly obvious.

    I refuse to view the Jedi as morally bankrupt simply because TCW writing team crafts a few situations for the purpose of, as rdhight said, extended booing, with the episode writing equivalent of pointing and saying "LOOK! MORALLY BANKRUPT!"

    I'm not going to watch the fugitive and Order 66 arcs, take a "How DARE they!" attitude towards the Jedi and side with Ahsoka and the clones just because I am told that I am "supposed" to.

    I still believe what I learned in the OT (and the PT for that matter) despite writing propaganda's attempt to convince us otherwise.
     
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  5. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013

    That is OK then. You adhere to your views and I adhere to mine. [face_peace]
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There's people who concluded the Jedi were morally bankrupt right after AoTC (of which Traviss was only the most notable).

    While that might be overstating it somewhat, I can see why it was an issue.
     
  7. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004

    Well, to be fair, the Jedi used the Clones, basically because they had no choice, but it's easy to see how Palpatine could have later spun that to his advantage. "The Jedi secretly commissioned a genetically modified slave army and proceeded to start a war with Count Dooku. No sooner was the war over, than they tried to kill me and take over the Republic."
     
  8. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013
    The image of the Jedi was distorted by Palpatine as chancellor. In the Book of the Sith, he twisted the Jedi reputation and made them look as murders and warmongers.

    "By crafting the news, the clone troopers and their noble chancellor became the fearless heroes of the Republic. When the time came for the Jedi to be eliminated, the public did not mourn them. When the Senate learned that the Jedi had attempted a coup and needed to be exterminated, they responded with absolute certainty.
    And when the people saw smoke rising from the Jedi Temple, they felt relief. The weak do not understand the Force.
    They venerate those who appear to be ordinary people like themselves. They cheered at the news that a resolute old man had survived a Jedi assassination attempt. In Palpatine, an ordinary Senator from Naboo, they see a model of human achievement."

    I can understand that many citizens of the Republic did harbour the greatest thoughts about the Jedi and their contribution in the war.
    But the point remains that the Jedi did not object to the decision of using a slave army. Whether or not they had no choice is irrelevant. For me, it was an unethical thing to do, and since then I do not hold the Jedi in such high regards as I used to.

    I think Sidious did not pick the “slavery card” as a way to smear the Jedi even further, because he used the same clones later.
     
  9. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004
    Well, no, the Jedi really didn't have a choice. They need the Clones to rescue Obi-wan, Anakin and Padme. If they refuse to use the Clones, and sit out the war, then Obi-wan, Anakin and Padme die and the Jedi as a whole still look like cowards and hippocrites because they potentially had the opportunity to end the war at Geonosis and didn't take it.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Palpatine portrays Dooku as the Jedi's "agent on the other side" with them being behind both sides in the war.
     
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  11. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 8, 2004

    Exactly. To expect the Jedi to not act is unrealistic, but at the same time the Jedi fell into Palpatine's trap. By making use of the Clones, Palpatine can later spin the war as a Jedi conspiracy.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    As far as I'm concerned, blaming the Jedi for any aspect of Palpatine's plans is blaming the victims for their own genocide.

    I actually would have hated the Jedi if they had sat around and ruminated about the morality of using the clones when there was a ****ing war going on. Especially since they really had no choice. Getting on some sort of pedestal about the clones would have served no purpose other than assuaging the moral compass of those who love the clones. And it would have wasted time.

    To use a similar example, I hated the NJO scenes in which Luke, Jacen and Anakin sat around and mused about the "moral" and "immoral" way to use the Force to fight the Vong. There's a war on, idiots. STFU and fight it.

    ...which is what the PT Jedi did, and I like them better.
     
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  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    They used the clones before there was a war on. Took them to Geonosis, and after that battle, both sides declared war on each other.
     
  14. Sgt Crowfield

    Sgt Crowfield Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 1999
    My position: I loved the clones since I first saw them on Kamino. It was love on first sight, and I found it very sad that so little screen time was devoted to them in the movies. This said, I loved the order 66 scenes in RotS not because clones killed Jedi (actually, I don't care about Jedi or other Force users - neither in the positive nor in the negative sense, I just find them totally uninteresting). No, I loved that because finally! there were some more movie scenes with clones in them. So for me, the less screen time is devoted to Jedi, the better, because that screen time can go to what I really want to see.
    I was happy when CW happened - Fordo and the boys! -, and I was extremely delighted that TCW finally gave the clones the time and the stories they deserved. I love my stories bittersweet, so there - the bitterer, the better.
    As for the depiction of Jedi in TCW - I don't think they were depicted as deserving genocide, either. They were just depicted as being human (or Twi'lek, or ...) with all their faults. Not as divine, infallible super heroes. Like someone else here said, their flaws even made them more likeable.
     
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  15. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013

    There was no war before Geonosis, or during Geonosis. It was after Geonosis that the Clone Wars started.

    Also, the Jedi had send Jedi to rescue Padme, Obi-Wan and Anakin, not the clones.
    The clones were used by Yoda to rescue the remaining Jedi.

    I have no problem when Mace and the rest of the Jedi come in the Arena in order to save Jedi. That is members of a particular institution being sent to rescue members of the same institution.
    What I do have a problem with, is the fact that the Jedi (Yoda in particular) used Clones to save the Jedi. This can and was considered an act of war, because the Clones were considered the army of the Republic, not the Jedi.

    In other words, by using the clones to save the Jedi, Yoda implicated the entirety of the Republic in a war. Maybe the Republic would have declared war no matter what, but the Jedi forced them in that war first.
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It's also worth thinking about just how many Jedi died to save those three. Weren't there 200-odd at the start of the battle and only about 20 or so at the end?
     
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  17. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2014
    Did we just have this conversation like two weeks ago?

    Edit: We can blame the writers all we want but again this is a fictitious world and is not going to be written to be the happy go lucky world of Jedi aren't the bad guys. The fact of the matter is that they are human and as hard as you can try to be good and just it still befalls the greatest of men/women. The writer's wanted to expose that and show that the Jedi at times were no better than the Sith which is true.
     
  18. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003

    I believe Leland Chee's blog at the official site (I don't know if it's still there) said that 200 Jedi went to Geonosis, but only 100 were in the arena itself, and I thought around 20, give or take a few, survived the arena. So about 80% casualties in the arena, I'm not sure about the remaining 100.

    But Mace also seemed to now know of the droid foundry. He seemed confident that the Jedi were not "impossibly outnumbered." And yet, before Mace even left Coruscant, it was agreed that Yoda was going to go inspect the troops and then it was implied he'd meet up with the rest of the Jedi on Geonosis.

    Mace would not have known that Obi-Wan was to be executed, all they knew was that he was apprehended. Mace would not have known that Anakin and Padme were apprehended, since Anakin was under orders to stay put.

    So as far as Mace knew, 200 Jedi was going to be more than enough to go to Geonosis, free one man, and then Yoda was going to show up with his thousands of clones as overkill and end the war before it even began.

    We, the audience know that the Jedi were baited into that trap by the assassination attempts on Padme, the investigation of which led Obi-Wan to Geonosis. But if you're a Republic senator and all you know is that a Jedi was apprehended by the Geonosians for spying on their planet, and then the Jedi invaded with an army that antagonized the CIS into open war, that looks like the fault of the Jedi.

    As I mentioned in another thread (or perhaps earlier in this one), these kinds of things happen in the real world. In 2007, Royal Navy personnel were seized by Iran for allegedly crossing into their waters, while the captives argued they were in Iraqi waters. Nobody goes in with an army to rescue these people. The first step is usually diplomacy. And Iran was threatening to charge them with illegal intrusion into Iranian waters, but said a diplomatic solution could be reached if Britain acknowledged its mistake and apologized.

    This was never attempted with the Geonosians, and I assume it has to do with somewhat similar issues to what Abraham Lincoln faced, in that they don't want to legitimize the CIS as a political entity by conducting negotiations over their apprehension of a Jedi, but instead wants to treat it as an act of treason. But instead of making this clear before the Senate, it just looks like the Jedi ran off and made the unilateral decision to start a war over one man.
     
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  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I forgot about that scene in which the Jedi ordered the capture of Obi-Wan as he was investigating the Separatists and Dooku, and the subsequent scene in which the Jedi Council ordered the execution of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme.

    It really is all the Jedi's fault.

    Oh, wait...

    And you actually think they don't have an agenda? [face_laugh]

    Let's have a Harry Potter reboot in which Voldemort is just as good as Dumbledore and his taking over the magical world in England was the best thing that could happen, and how dare Neville Longbottom and those kids at Hogwarts rebel! Somebody needs to AK Neville for being " directly responsible" for the deaths of Fred Weasley, Colin Creevy, Remus Lupin, Nymphadora Tonks, and so many others,

    And why don't we do a prequel to Back to the Future in which Biff Tannen has low self-esteem and he would have felt so much better about himself if George and Marty McFly would have just let him bully them a little more.

    The writers may have "wanted to show" X "from a certain point of view," but we have the option of refusing to buy into that POV. The universe being fictional does not mean we have to eat up every agenda we are fed.
     
  20. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2014
    I said at time's they showed the Jedi were no different. They were selfish and did things for their own personal gain. I'm comparing the Jedi to the Sith and not the other way around. I never said the Sith were as good as the Jedi. I said that the Jedi did stoop to the Sith level at some point.

    I don't get how your Harry Potter analogy or your Back to the Future analogy works with what I said. Maybe if I was comparing the Sith to the Jedi but clearly from my post that's not what I was saying.

    Edit: Where are you getting that I'm saying eat up everything the writer's did? We're not sheep. But why complain about it that the Jedi were portrayed as human? This show isn't tailored to one person or view point.
     
  21. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    AFS: It also doesn't mean everyone that can and does admit/feel the Jedi do stoop to Sith level and I'm heartily one of those, is swallowing an agenda knowingly as you keep insisting. I knew the Jedi weren't what they paint themselves as since the OT. TCW merely expands on their flaws. Which I think is fabulous. The Jedi aren't perfect and TCW shows that clearly.
     
  22. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 1, 2014
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  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Comparing the Jedi to the Sith is not comparing the Sith to the Jedi? Mmmmkay.

    The only faults that I see in the Jedi was that they were a bit overconfident and had their heads up their asses. That is not immoral nor any more selfish than any of us. They were still heroes.

    When the Jedi are making a regular practice of choking and electrocuting people for pissing them off, I'll say any comparison to the Sith is apt.
     
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  24. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013
    I understand that the Separatists imprisoned Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan and that they ordered their execution, but that hardly had to do anything with the Republic, let alone be the reason to cause a war.
    They imprisoned Jedi and only Jedi. I know that the Jedi have aligned themselves to the Republic and the Padme is a republic Senator, but it was not up to the Jedi Order to initiate a war with the CIS.
    Obviously, if you see that from Sidious' perspective, he wants to push the galaxy into war, but the Jedi do not know that he wants war.

    Also, since this is the topic of discussion today, I found this whole rescue very hypocritical of the Jedi. If you look this from a cynical point of view, the death of 3 Jedi is hardly of matter compared to the deaths that a galactic war would bring. Either the Jedi did not have time to process this, or they were suspecting it, and went on with the plan anyway.
     
  25. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 1, 2014
    What about deception, selfishness or refusing to diffuse situations in which they were able to? Those surely aren't Jedi traits correct? They may not be Sith traits but I said they were portrayed no better than the Sith. I said that they were HUMAN and are not free from fault or blame just as we are not in some of the decisions in which we make. Never said they were immoral either. Of course they were heroes, they fought for Good and Peace. Every hero has their own downfall or flaws.
     
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