Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

I can't like this twice, so I am quoting it show how well said that was Cushy

 

Yeah the Jedi aren't perfect but they went way too overboard with it. Why should I care that they are wiped out if they are so unlikable?

 

Let's not stretch it. I don't think the Jedi deserved Genocide. They never commit acts as horrific as those of certain Sith, which in my opinion are the ones that deserve death.

 

Well there is no real morality in Star Wars. It is our perception of what morality is in our world. Sure we can apply that to Star Wars but we were fed that the Jedi were morally correct and unflawed always. That is not the case. No one is uncorruptible case in point was Threll. By the Human statement was that they you were agreeing with me when I said that they are human.

The example of selfishness is this example. In the Bounty Hunter episode (we are introduced to Embo) the only reason that Anakin, Obi-wan and Ahsoka helped the farmers was because they needed a ride off. What if they had a means of transportation to get off without seeking the farmers but knew of their plight. They wouldn't of helped them. The Jedi are keeper's of the peace correct? When do they get to pick and chose when to help because my thinking behind it is that at that point you aren't a keeper of the peace. You are someone who does it for your own gain.

 

I don't think they deserved it at all either. That is the darkness of the Sith which I 100% don't agree with.

 

This argument works both ways.
The writers of the OT wanted to show that the Jedi were of the highest morality, benevolent and all the good traits that the title of Jedi comes along with. If we are accepting that as well because that is what the writers wanted to show, then again, "we are eating up everything the writers say".

I don't find the bias (if you want to call it that) of the TWC writers, about smearing the Jedi image, any different than the bias of the OT writers about lionizing the Jedi image.

 

I don' remember that episode. I am going to have to re-watch it again to see what's it all about

 

The Jedi don't deserve genocide but its really hard to care if they are wiped out imo. Caring about the characters is very important for me. Characters with faults are necessary but what good points do the Jedi have for me to care about?

 

Thank you for giving me something to ponder while at work! I personally do not agree with killing someone but the good points question is something to think about.

 

You're welcome!

 

Granted, but there ARE fans who choose to interpret Star Wars and the Chosen One silliness as the Jedi being a flawed order that, "needed," to be wiped out and purified. I find such an interpretation repugnant and inherently stupid.

 

Really?! I fail to see the connection between the Chosen One bringing balance to the Force and the Jedi order needed to be wiped out.

 

I find the concept of the prophecy and that balance is somehow the total absence of evil relatively nonsensical myself. Its not like the Dark Side can ever be wiped out anyways, eventually there will be a jedi that decides he isn't into this whole serving the galaxy thing and would really prefer some of that unlimited powah that the emperor seemed to enjoy.

 

Can you actually point to an example of the Jedi Council doing something morally bankrupt? The worst they do is try to pick the lesser of a set of evils when they have no good options, and even that only happens in a small handful of arcs all in the second half of the series. In the S5 Ahsoka arc, Ahsoka is shown making plenty of mistakes herself, I'm not sure why they would write it like that if they were trying to get the audience to side with Ahsoka over the Jedi Council. Ditto for how Fives acts towards the end of the Order 66 arc.

This idea of what you were "supposed" to take away from the episode is highly subjective, and I along with it seems many, many others here did not think that or feel we were "supposed" to.

Again, let's hear some examples of what the Jedi Council actually do in TCW that justifies such a hyperbolic comparison.

Your premise is confusing because you are the one making the leap to "immoral" and "corrupt" while TCW merely portrays them as having "human" flaws. So if you don't want that leap to be made, simply stop making it yourself, because it is absolutely not there in the actions of the Jedi Council in TCW. (Unless you can point to it, of course.)

 

For me the problem with the Jedi goes all the way back to how Lucas had written them and the changes he made in the PT and no it was not deliberate, we were meant to care for them, it merely crappy writing, so instead they came across as uncaring and incredibly stupid, who spent most of there time standing or sitting about in Bath Robes muttering about the dark side. Because of this I could not care one bit when they die.

In TPM they have no problem with slavery and don't seem to give a s@#t about the people suffering under it. They are also stupid for a kid who they know misses his mother, and is potentially a great danger, they can't simply buy her freedom and for whatever reason give him to Obi-wan who had just that second been made a knight rather than a wise experienced master who could spot the danger signs.
That is down to Lucas changing Obi-wan as an experienced Knight finding Anakin to Qui-gon.

In Clones There are so many things to list which they do stupidly it's impossible to list. Same for RotS and the problems in Clones go on from there. I laughed when the TCW film came out at the idea of the Jedi giving a young girl into the hands of a pyscohpath and then worry about attachements and how she will act etc.

 

There are too many blank pages in the canon for me to really know what's going on. And it doesn't help when the polarization of good and bad is weakened.

Palpatine wants revenge. For what? The only canonical bits that we know are that the Sith once ruled the galaxy, turned on themselves and then were defeated, with the Jedi rebounding against the Sith and with Darth Bane being the only survivor.

What happened to the rest of the Sith? Did the Republic commit genocide against them? Were they all merely imprisoned and forbidden from passing on their teachings? (if they could be contained, that kind of weakens Mace's justification for wanting to kill Palpatine).

It would be ridiculous for Israel to attack Germany in revenge for the Holocaust today, let alone the Sith holding a grudge for 1,000 years for a genocide (even if one occurred) at the hands of the Jedi and Republic. So, it doesn't make what Palpatine does less evil, but it means he has an "eye for an eye" mentality.

But even throughout the PT and TCW, Palpatine is the kind of guy that leaves a loaded gun in a room and walks away. He creates a situation in which bad things can happen, but he's not the one that really pulls the trigger. And as Filoni says, he often has a middle man, or even several middle men, beneath him that are the ones doing all the bad stuff.

TPM - Palpatine hires the Trade Federation to blockade Naboo in protest of the taxation of trade routes. That Palpatine has a hand in this is corrupt, but it's also perceived as being a legal action that the Jedi want to peacefully negotiate a solution to (there is a blank page in that we never learn why this is legal or why the Trade Federation is allowed to blockade a planet of trade in protest and have this be perceived as being legal). The Trade Federation are the middle men actually doing all the killing (mentioned, but never shown, don't know how much killing, if any, actually took place). The worst things Palpatine really does is tell the TF to kill the gungans and the Jedi.

AOTC - Palpatine orchestrates the creation of a clone army using Dooku and Sifo-Dyas as his middle men. The clone army is the metaphorical gun, but the Jedi are the ones that use it to pull the trigger and kick off a war with the CIS. Palpatine is merely patient. Dooku rallies the dissatisfied elements within the Republic, Gunray and Dooku arrange for Padme's execution, and Obi-Wan does spy on a planet outside of Republic jurisdiction, and the Jedi use the army to rescue Obi-Wan. Sidious' role here seems very hands off. It's what he wanted, but he's not an active participant. He wanted a war, he put the pieces in place to orchestrate the war, but it's the Jedi that knock over the dominoes.

ROTS - The Senate has demanded that Palpatine remain in office. He says he'll relinquish his powers when the war is over. But no opportunity to test that is ever presented, since immediately after Mace finds out that Palpatine is a Sith lord, he moves against him to arrest him. There is no proof that he's a Sith other than Anakin's testimony, the Jedi clearly look like they're in the wrong here. They do indeed seem to be committing treason in that they are unilaterally moving to arrest the Chancellor with no grounds to do so. When Mace defeats Palpatine, he then moves forward to execute Palpatine without trial on the grounds that he's too dangerous to be kept alive, when there is no evidence. Palpatine's lightsaber went out the window, and even if it didn't, could the Jedi prove it was his? Could the Jedi prove that he could use the Force? And even if they could prove that he could use the Force, could they make a case as to why anyone should care? This looks like religious persecution against the Sith over something that happened over 1,000 years ago.

I'm not arguing that Palpatine is a good guy. He is obviously evil, manipulative, corrupt and cares only for himself. But so often he's more like a cult leader that can get his followers to do everything for him. There is pretty much no direct evidence to connect Palpatine to any crimes that are committed. There's nothing linking Dooku to Palpatine. Nothing that explicitly makes Dooku to be a Sith. And even if it came to light that Dooku and Palpatine both claimed to be Sith, that doesn't mean that they are aligned.

Palpatine was defending himself from treasonous Jedi, and it was ultimately Anakin that saves Palpatine from an illegal execution.

Now Order 66 is really the first time where Palpatine directly pulls the trigger and commits an atrocity in committing genocide against the Jedi. HOWEVER, is what Palpatine says incorrect? When the Jedi had learned what had happened and that Palpatine was a Sith and that Anakin had stood beside him and helped defeat Mace, would that not have killed Anakin and Palpatine? Order 66 and the attack on the Temple are pre-emptive strikes against the Jedi, but they are not executed willy nilly. Palpatine at this point really does have to perform these actions in the interest of self-preservation. It's what he wanted all along, but again he waits until the moment is right, when he would actually look like he has the moral justification of doing it. The Jedi had already shown that they had contempt for the Republic as it had transformed during the course of TCW, with Mace having zero faith in the procedures of the Senate and Courts. Palpatine's comment that the Jedi would kill all the senators was preposterous, but everything else he says is true. The Jedi would have moved against the Republic government (they even spoke of doing this, if Palpatine refused to leave office), they would have attempted to kill Palpatine and Anakin, and it would have led to a civil war.

The murder of the children is the only thing that - self defense or not - was completely unnecessary.

Compare this to the Jedi and we do see that all the CIS casualties of war are not solely droids. We see Geonosians getting roasted, we see Umbarans getting a blaster bolt between the eyes, all while under the command of their Jedi generals. We see the Jedi leading this morally abhorrent army (it can be argued that it isn't seen as morally abhorrent IU, but that isn't going to stop me from regarding it as being so OOU). We see the Jedi start the war. And while Palpatine lays a series of webs, the Jedi keep walking right into them without thinking.

Sith created a clone army? Let's continue to use it!

Palpatine is a Sith? Let's go arrest/kill him without warning anyone else! Apparently Palpatine can send an "execute Order 66" message to all the clone commanders throughout the galaxy in minutes, but Mace can't do the same?

Palpatine is evil, but he's not proactive. He is more like a spider creating a web and then waiting for the Jedi to walk into the trap.

He orchestrates the creation of the Clone Army, but he doesn't use it. He waits for the Jedi to discover it and then the ball is in their court. The Jedi didn't have to use it. The Jedi could have pulled Jar Jar aside and told him not to propose an amendment to give Palpatine emergency powers to bypass the Senate.

The Jedi didn't have to go in force to rescue Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was apprehended for spying. He was outside the reach of the Republic. And the Republic assemble a force of 200 Jedi to force his release during a time of high political tension between the seceding systems and the Republic.

Palpatine tells Anakin that he knows how to use he Dark Side. But then the ball is in Anakin's court. Palpatine does not threaten Anakin or do anything to force Anakin's hand. Anakin tells Mace, and then Mace rushes off to arrest Palpatine without thinking ahead at all. And this all leads to Mace walking right into the web. Palpatine isn't lying. They are committing treason, they have acted unilaterally and without evidence, they have not consulted the Senate, etc. And then after Mace is killed, Palpatine both wants and yet also needs to issue Order 66 to protect himself, Anakin and the stability of the Republic (which is what the Senate is most worried about).

 

TaradosGon

....Wow

 

That's very good TG but sadly I think it's more due to the writer who has Obi-wan declare "Only Sith deal in Absolutes (an absolute anyway) before a few mins later also declaring "Chancellor Palpatine is evil" or Anakin "I can overthrow him and you and I can rule the galaxy" to a bit later "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over" not really having a clue what he was writing.

Another for you is why did Yoda and Obi-wan not team up together and take Palpatine out first before Anakin or visa versa instead of going seperatly

 

Anakin was little threat, and I agree that it was stupid for them to split up. Granted, Anakin's powerful, but he's been a Sith for like 2 minutes, has no political backing, and worst case scenario he goes into hiding, but knows too little to really revive the Sith.

So yes, IMO they should have bee-lined for Palpatine first. He was the threat.

But even afterward, the Jedi believed Anakin to be dead, and had 19 years to team up and try to make a move against Palpatine again. But instead, they just go into hiding and hope they'll survive long enough that Luke has the chance to grow up and be trained as a Jedi, but wait until long after the age that Anakin was trained at, which according to Mace was already too old as is, and Yoda had warned was a very bad thing. And then after the destruction of the Death Star, when Luke is on Vader' radar, they still wait 3 years (unless this time frame is retconned) to tell Luke to go to Dagobah to finish the training.

Their plan seems very much flawed to me.

 

You have the right to not care and I respect that.
But since we are discussion Jedi morality, it seems to me that the situation with Embo shows exactly that their are not of a high morality, as we were led to believe they were.

I am not forcing you to care about why the Jedi were helping Embo, but I am clarifying the fact as to why Embo was mentioned in the first place.

 

Vader'sGoodHand: Sorry so late to the party again. ::high fives::

TaradosGon: Your post recently on Sidious, the Jedi and Sith is one of the best I've ever seen here. Well said, Sir.

 

Let me just repost that so we can all see how good @TaradosGon's post was.

 

I'm retweeting it too