Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I understand and I must apologize for not being clearer. I am on your side against the poster(s) saying the Jedi's flaws make them as bad as the Sith. However, I also got the impression from your posts that you were saying TCW's writing team held this belief and TCW tries to show that it is true, both of which I strongly disagree with. (Though really, the former is only an inference based on the latter, so not sure if that's really two issues or one.) I agree that in The Wrong Jedi the audience is meant to sympathize with Ahsoka more than the Jedi Council, but I also don't think the Jedi Council do anything morally bankrupt, corrupt, or villainous.
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  2. Sgt Crowfield Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 1999
    star 4
    IMO, nobody deserves death. Even Sith are redeemable.
  3. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I share this belief. All are redeemable.
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  4. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    hitler? some people are not. some people are insane monsters.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, May 15, 2014
  5. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Yes, I believe even Hitler will have his chance at redemption.
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  6. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3
    All are redeemable ... but that doesn't change the fact that some deserve death.
  7. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
  8. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6

    He doesn't deserve redemption at all.
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  9. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    how exactly? i don't think any god would redeem someone as bad as hitler, mass murderers, etc.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, May 15, 2014
  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I've read some depictions of the afterlife in fiction that depict it as purgatorial for even the vilest - they slowly learn the Right Way - and gain admission into heaven.

    Anne Rice's Memnoch The Devil depicts it that way. In this case, the Devil is the guy in charge of making sure that everyone eventually gets redeemed - even if it takes an enormous amount of work.
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  11. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    That's why we aren't a god I would guess.
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  12. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    true.
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  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    @Dark Lord Tarkas: I don't know if TCW writing team holds the beliefs that the Jedi Council are villainous or not, but I do think the intention of "highlighting the flaws" of the Jedi (at least a paraphrase of a Filoni statement in an interview posted earlier in this thread) was intended to make the audience view them in a negative light, or at least more negatively than other characters.

    The Wrong Jedi episode is a prime example. We are supposed to sympathize with Ahsoka, and whether the writers intended it or not, that sympathy came at the expense of the Jedi Council, who were viewed as villainous by many.

    That's why I object to "highlighting the flaws" and writing another character or characters as sympathetic at the Jedi's expense. The flaws then become the focus of what some fans take away from the episode and in the minds of some, the Jedi become villainous whether the writers intended them to be viewed that way or simply as humans who make mistakes.

    The Order 66 arc was another set of episodes in which we were intended to sympathize with the clones, and view the Jedi as stupid at best. As I said, they did have their heads up their asses but I'm not sure why that needs to be "highlighted" either, showing it in AOTC was plenty. And again whether the writers personally view the Jedi that way or intended this, many in the audience took from that arc that the Jedi were villainous.

    I don't like episodes intended to highlight a character's flaws any more than I like episodes intended to highlight a character's assets, and everyone here knows how I feel about pet characters.

    The first two seasons did better with showing the overall story of the Clone Wars without these narrower focuses or intentions.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  14. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Personally, I love that they brought the Jedi order's flaws to the forefront. My only issue is that Dave's commentary about Yoda being a dissenting voice in Ahsoka's trial seems to pin most of the error on Mace. And while Mace has his flaws, I much prefer the Stover/Lucas interpretation that a lot of the order's failings come from Yoda's intractability.
  15. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    Well, that would justify him not reporting to the council at the end of the Yoda arc.
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  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Any link to that commentary?
  17. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4

    I would like to hear that as well
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I saw no point to any of the "highlighting" myself. Let's look at what we already knew from the PT:

    The Jedi Order had become overconfident and complacent. They were set in their ways and unaccustomed to being challenged, therefore they could not see their own planned destruction happening right in front of them. They played right into Palpatine's hands.

    How were their flaws not "highlighted" enough here?

    Why did we need two arcs intended to elicit the responses of "Poor little Ahsoka! Damn you Jedi Council!" and "Poor clones! How DARE Shaak Ti talk about them that way! And how could the Jedi be so stupid when they were told that the clones were ordered by Dooku!"

    As much as I'd love an explanation that does not involve an anti-Jedi agenda on the part of someone on TCW team, I can't see any other motivation behind an intent to "highlight flaws" beyond what the PT already did and elicit those emotional responses.

    I'm on my phone and doing a search is a pain in the ass, plus I only have a few minutes right now, but if no one else digs up the two- or three-part Filoni interview posted earlier in this thread, I'll try to do it tonight. The Yoda quote is probably from there.

    Personally I think Yoda and Mace were equally culpable of head-up-the-ass syndrome but they both still did the best they could and were in the end, noble characters.
    Robimus likes this.
  19. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    While it isn't spelled out well in the film I'd suggest the reason for the war was that Dooku & the Confederacy had been tied to Fett via Obi-Wan's communication to Coruscant, with Fett of course being tied to terrorist actions against the Republic. When it became clear that those terrorist actions, via Obi-Wan's communications, were tied to the Confederacy then those became the act of war.

    Yes, you can make the argument for the Separatists that they never would have taken military action if not for the actions of the Jedi, but lets be real. We know that wasn't going to be the case. The Republic had enough evidence to put two and two together.

    You would have them abandon Obi Wan for completing the mission they ordered him on in the first place. There would have been no moral value to the Jedi if they hadn't attempted a rescue. I don't think the Jedi could sit there and think about how they wouldn't want to instigate a war against the Confederacy when it had been made incredibly clear that the Confederacy had already been blowing up things on Coruscant, murdering Republic citizens and trying to assassinate members of the Senate.


    There are more planets in the galaxy(or at least there were before Disney took over) than there are Jedi to look after them. It is definitely about trying to pick where they can have the most influence. The Jedi were fighting a war, the military leadership of the Republic - they can't just decide to take a few months off every time a misjustice comes to their attention.

    Without the Jedi commanding Republic fleets General Grievous would have run over the Republic in no time.

    I'm actually not a fan of the Jedi, I think they should have done a lot differently, but given the situation Obi-Wan, Anakin & Ahsoka were in I agree with their actions.

    You might be giving their writing team too much credit here. I'd be more inclined to believe that they just don't get it, rather than believing they intentionally wrote up anti Jedi propaganda.

    I certainly agree that they made the Jedi Order look terrible in both of the previously mentioned arcs.
    Last edited by Robimus, May 16, 2014
  20. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    It was not for the Jedi to take such a decision. They have every right to go and save Obi-Wan, but not with Republic Military. Unless it is somewhere stated that Palpatine or the Senate gave the all-clear for the Jedi to (indirectly) declare war to the CIS, then IMO the Jedi had no right to take the preemptive.

    I agree with their decision as well. As generals of the Republic military and soldiers in the war effort, their priority is the war.

    However, such a statement has never been admitted by any Jedi in that Era. They claim to help those in need, but not during the war. They claim to be peacekeepers and prefer diplomacy over hostile action, yet they fight as Generals in a war.

    All in all, for me, such scenes like that, showed that the Jedi were truly overwhelmed by the war, whether they realised it or not.
  21. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I don't know why the assumption would be that Yoda & the Jedi didn't have the permission of the Republic to take the actions they did. The Republic was certainly comfortable slapping ranks on them after that action, if not even before. We just don't know the timeline is all, that in and of itself isn't proof of Jedi wrong doing.

    Like I say, it is poorly presented in the films, but without direct evidence that the Republic didn't sanction their actions I don't think we can just assume that the Republic didn't.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  22. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 2
    @Lord_Anzeroth

    Your post is the specific reason I chose that scene along with seeing the episode two days ago. My whole thinking process is if they were chasing Grievous on the planet but stumbled upon these band of farmers with this issue would they have helped? I agree they needed to get off the planet but it shows them not as peacekeepers anymore but soldiers.

    Edit: I'm happy with the way the writer's did it. Why protect the Jedi from being seen as just Heroes that had fallen from grace. It happens to the greatest of warriors. You may go into War thinking you will be protecting from a necessary evil but you get consumed by it as well.
    Last edited by Vader'sGoodHand, May 16, 2014
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  23. Lord_Anzeroth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4
    I can agree with that.
    Since it is not clear in AOTC whether the Republic authorised the Jedi to declare war, I can agree with your argument.

    However, as long as there is no new clarification (which I don't think we are going to get) then I am going to stick with my version.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The Jedi were not "consumed by evil." Not by any means. They were drawn into a war they were not prepared to fight, and how could they have been prepared when the Republic had not seen a war for a millennia? They were given no choice about leading the clone army so accusing them of being "immoral" for doing so is ridiculous, as is accusing them of being "immoral" for not wasting their time in futile protest or ruminations about the "morality" of the clone army.

    The lines about losing 200 Jedi in order to save three people were repeated in Shatterpoint, by Depa Billaba who had turned to the Dark Side, but I'm sure Mace had no idea that 200 people would die that day. Any of us would have done the same thing Mace and Yoda did, and holding the Jedi to some ridiculous standard of self-sacrifice or omniscience that we could not possibly adhere to ourselves, would be hypocritical. I make it a point never to ask others to do what I would not or could not do in the same situation, and my expectation for fictional characters in this case is the same.

    We seem to all be trying to agree that the Jedi are portrayed as human. Where the disagreement comes in is whether or not they deserve contempt for being as human as any of us. I say no.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  25. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The Jedi were given every choice about leading the army. Mace and Yoda would have had no idea that Obi-Wan was scheduled for execution. All they know is that there is a meeting going on Geonosis between the commerce guilds and Dooku, and the Obi-Wan was apprehended while spying on this meeting.

    Nothing had transpired between earlier in the film and this point to make the Jedi suddenly think that Dooku is a "murderer" and not a "political idealist."

    The senate votes for the creation of an army to "counter the increasing threat of the Separatists." No declaration of war was made, it sounds entirely just like mobilization of troops to dissuade the CIS from attacking.

    Given that the Jedi had no idea that Obi-Wan would be executed (or that Anakin and Padme had gone to Geonosis and were caught too), time was not so important that Mace needed to run out ahead of Yoda with 200 Jedi. The Jedi were not soldiers. They had stated this earlier. They were keepers of the peace. So, why they would start a war over Obi-Wan is beyond me. They are not soldiers. The clones were soldiers. If Palpatine wanted to start a war over the capture of a Jedi, he could have sent the clones in without the Jedi. There are clone commanders and non-clone generals and admirals like Yularen and Tarkin who didn't just crop up in a vacuum. The Jedi were redundant and seem like they volunteered to lead the Clone Army, and were not required to.

    I mean, if the Senate or Palpatine tried to order the Jedi to lead the army against their desires, you think the Jedi would be a little bitter about that. But instead, they seemed perfectly fine with fighting for the Republic, which is not their duty as peace keepers. They should have been the ones trying to ease tensions between the Republic and CIS, not the ones that barge in, hold a lightsaber to Jango's throat, and threaten Dooku on a world outside of Republic space, over one man that for all they knew was merely being held captive for espionage on a sovereign world outside of the Republic.

    That's like an American going to Vietnam (analogous to Geonosis) to spy on another American's activities there, and when the spy is caught by the Vietnamese government, somehow thinking it justifiable to send in the troops, when this might pull all of Vietnam's allies (analogous to the CIS) into conflict against the US too, over one guy that had no authority to be there.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, May 16, 2014