Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Am saying Knights happen to wear helmets and armor and Jedi certainly train and carry arms as they police the galaxy for the Republic . Sith and Jedi were knights and warriors, not peaceful or reclusive monks full time, like say Dagoyan masters - who were specialized in a strictly passive connection to the Force. I have mixed views about the Temple Guards or Sentinels myself. They don't appear all that better than standard Jedi knights so its not clear of their exact purpose on the toon other than be the police that police the police and ceremonial or walking statues. At one point they even med/cell guard Yoda. Why dod they carry yellow blades, why or how did Ventress obtain a yellow blade. Why would Jedi want fearsome nameless and faceless looking personal army looking warriors anyway carrying devastating weapons, since fear leads to the Dark Side or can promote or illicit fear and suspicion in others.

 

Oh I agree that it was pointless but it fits into Kanan's story arc.
He must surely must be the worst Villain in SW and totally lackluster.

Barris must surely turn up in the nuCanon at some point.

 

I agree he was completely lacklustre. The worst though, hmm you don't think Evil Buffy and the other were even worse, they were like Dick Darstedly and Muttly in space !

 

Who is Evil Buffy?

 

The Female Inquistor voiced by Sarah Michelle Gellar who was Buffy the Vampire Slayer

 

Buffy the Jedi Slayer.

 

I thought we agreed on Maul the Inquisitor Slayer?

Well then I disagree then. I like those Inquisitors! Pity they had to die.

 

There can more then one slayer.

 

Of course the Jedi have Temple guards (they existed before TCW), but why the masks? Why the head to toe coverage? Why the sinister appearance? Why the double bladed lightsaber, associated with aggression and violence? Who are the others to have used it in canon at that point? Maul, Savage, Ventress, and Krell? All darksiders.

It's pretty clear what they are suggesting. The Jedi Temple guards are a very dark sign, a sign of the dark side. The masks sorta make them look like Knights Templars, which has a very negative connotation.

They're reminiscent of Palpatine's Red Guards, which also has a negative connotation.

They're very suggestive of Secret Police, of authoritarianism, of fascism.

Their appearance is undeniably suggestive of dark things. I find it ridiculous.

But hey, it makes perfect sense if you approach the Jedi the way TCW does, as the bad guys.

 

Better that they remain good, and that Anakin's only reason for not trusting them is that they won't help him save Padme?

 

Yeah, that was the narrative, and Anakin is supposed to come off as completely unreasonable. I mean, when Anakin throws a temper tantrum in the Council chambers, you're not supposed to think he's anything but petulant.

It's not, "yeah the Jedi are bad guys anyway so who cares if I genocide them, yolo lol".

If he has to choose between Padme and the Jedi, the Jedi have to be good in order for that to be a difficult choice.

And, Return of the Jedi is kinda stupid if the Jedi aren't anything we should want to return, or anything Anakin would want to return to.

TCW goes way too far. If it was just disagreements and differences of opinion, that's fine.

But the Jedi have a Secret Police now. That's not very ambiguous.

You can't rewrite ROTS with TCW. It will never work. There's no fixing Anakin, either. He's not supposed to be fixed.

ROTS is what it is. If you want it to be different, I sympathize, but it just can't be done. No amount of external attempts at retconning are going to change ROTS.

What I'm saying is, for ROTS and Anakin to be different, Lucas would have had to written it/him differently to begin with. But he didn't. So it is what it is.

It's like all these fan attempts at re-writing the prequels. You can't do it. What's done is done.

 

Not much I can add to the previous two posts except to say that I agree entirely.

The Jedi Council - and the Order as a whole - works well in the prequel narrative as a flawed organisation, far too caught up in the day-to-day grind of galactic politics and complacent as a result of centuries of widespread peace. That is their Achilles heel, not that they were a stone's throw away from becoming the Illuminati-like group of plotters that Palpatine would later claim them to be.

 

The idea that TCW paints the Jedi as villains is completely and utterly laughable in every way. For the first three and a half seasons they paint the Jedi as heroes through and through, there is no denying that. To do so otherwise is completely foolish.

In the later parts of the series they paint the Jedi in heroic lights, but show that sometimes they are willing to go in dark places we wouldn't have imagined them to. It makes the Jedi a well-meaning but ultimately flawed organization that went too far. That's the ENTIRE point of the "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" line in RotS, to show that while the Sith are pure evil the Jedi were not perfect angels, they were flawed, hypocritical, and distrusting and in the end they didn't practice what they preached.

The Jedi did lose their way, Barriss is the ultimate example of it but she didn't have the slightest bit of irony at all, she fell to the dark side and I think people who say that TCW painted the Jedi as evil quite literally only have Barriss and Krell, both characters fell to the dark side and were treated as evil, they never paint Yoda, Mace, Ki-Adi, Shaaki Ti, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Aayla Secura, etc... as evil ones who are out to get Anakin like some here suggest and if they did I want you to point me to solid concrete proof (NOT the Bounty Hunter arc, it was Obi-Wan's idea not to tell Anakin, pay attention for god's sake)

In The Wrong Jedi arc not only were they being pressured by the Senate, the military, and the general public to hand over the terrorist responsible for the bombing but keeping Ahsoka in the temple and giving her a trial of their own would show favoritism so under pressure they had no choice but to kick Ahsoka out.

Sorry but the mere suggestion that TCW paints the Jedi as bad guys is completely idiotic and falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny. They never tried to pain Palpatine as an anti hero, they simply made Anakin's fall more understandable and made him more than a whiny petulant child and gave him more believable motivation and that's bad because some people on here dislike moral complexity.

 

I agree with your opinion on the Council's actions during the Ahsoka Fugitive arc, and how they were justified / acting appropriately and in a non-villainous capacity. I remember debating that very thing a lot when the episodes first aired.

I think the suggestion, though, is that regardless of the in-universe justification, we as viewers are directed to believe the actions of some of the Jedi Council (particularly in the later seasons and turned up to 11 in Dark Disciple) are inherently bad. And it's that direction that ruffles some feathers.

To use the fugitive arc as an ongoing example: I believe quite firmly that the Jedi acted in the only way they reasonably could given that someone had gone to extraordinary lengths to frame Ahsoka in every way possible. The nano-bugs, the dead clones, her escape from captivity, teaming up with Ventress and beating down on clones...Ahsoka looked guilty as heck in every conceivable way.

For them to deny the Senate its justice on the basis that they knew her pretty well and doubted she would do it wouldn't just be against the law they've sworn themselves to uphold, it would be reckless and set a dangerous precedent that the guardians of peace and justice could pick-and-choose said justice as they see fit. Jedi are no more exempt from the justice system as any other galactic citizen - so the Council did the right thing by handing her over and submitting her to said system to argue her innocence.

At no point was it suggested by any members of the Council that they believed she was guilty beyond doubt - only that it was their duty and legal responsibility to let the justice system work as it must.

But that doesn't stop the end of the arc, when Ahsoka is vindicated, from being written and directed in a way that makes the Jedi appear to be villains for daring to doubt Ahsoka's innocence. Although their actions could be justified, in Ahsoka's farewell scene we are instead treated to them effectively begging for her forgiveness and trying to write off the ordeal as a 'trial' when in fact if Ahsoka displayed real Jedi sensibilities then she would have accepted the necessity of what they did.

Now Ahsoka is a teenager, not yet a fully mature Jedi Knight, so her having this biased view of the situation is totally understandable - and realistic. But the key point of contention is that the scene is not portrayed as 'this is Ahsoka's view, this is the Jedi's, it's a terrible situation because both are justified for acting the way they did'. It's portrayed in no uncertain terms that Ahsoka is the good guy who has been wronged, and the Jedi are the bad guys who have wronged her.

This post is turning into a bit of a mini-essay, so I'll finish off with a TLDR.

TLDR: The Jedi don't do anything villainous in the series, but that doesn't stop the makers of the series portraying their actions as villainous on several occasions in order to serve the narrative benefit of a particular subset of characters (e.g. Ahsoka)

 

When the hell did they EVER refer to sentient beings as property? If you mean Shaak Ti with Fives and Nala Se she was only humoring Nala Se's bigotry,.

I shouldn't even bother arguing with you because you are (and I don't want to upset you, I mean this not as intentional insult so I apologize if you feel insulted) an incredibly myopic person. The fact that you use the world 'Trolls' to describe their actions just makes me laugh, you don't think Yoda's actions in the OT were so different? He acted like a backwards moron, tricking Luke into frustration, that's perfectly in line with Yoda's character to do something dickish.

The Jedi are flawed, but to say Filoni and the writers made them look like villains... well I just have to laugh at how idiotic the notion is. They depict them as flawed, well meaning beings who made too many mistakes. Never as villains and I'm sorry but the mere idea that they did otherwise is just worthy of suicide by face palm.

 

Fair enough, but I assure I meant my apology, I did not mean to insult you, you just frustrate me and I assume I am just as frustrating to you, but please do not assume that I am that shallow. I don't mean to insult your opinion, but the fact that you treat the laughable notion that Filoni and the writers of TCW as villains as fact gets to me.

 

There is no emotion, I've thought about this logically and the little "Filoni hates the Jedi and wants us to think they're evil' crusade is highly flawed and flat out silly.

I apologize, I genuinely am sorry for offending you, okay?

 

I've thought about this logically, and the rules here at TFN seem pretty clear; the whole "posts, not posters" thing being more than a suggestion, and all. Let's bear it in mind moving forward, eh, folks? -Sabreon

 

This is why the end of the Umbara arc annoys me to no end. With the Jedi spread thin and the war taking more and more casualties, you would think that there are Jedi who truly aren't cut out to be generals. Those among the order whose values are being gradually chipped away due to the seemingly never-ending destruction the war inflicts upon the galaxy. Because all we see from the Jedi as far as military leadership goes are the likes of Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Anakin, etc. However, TCW missed a massive opportunity to show what it looks like to have a Jedi master who treats his troops as pawns and nothing else due to their origin in the form of Pong Krell but he just turned out as a Sith groupie in the end. It's such a ****ing waste. Especially to such a grim arc. It would have matched the likes of Jabiim if they felt like actually making a compelling story that actually shows how the ideals of the Jedi can waver.

As for the Grand Inquisitor (saw the discussion in the previous couple pages), I really don't care about his backstory. That would have been far more interesting stuff had he been...you know...ALIVE.

 

But since Lucas was doing the writing in the TCW he DID write him differently. It's like he realised that he had not written him sympathetic enough and had another go.

You can't deny Anakin is a completely different character (and better in jmo) in the TCW compared to the PT.

anakinfansince1983 I would argue the Jedi are portrayed much worse in the PT than the TCW as well as being much more stupid. The list is long.

They seemed to have no problem leaving Shmi in slavery. Guardians of peace and justice my arse !
Hell despite also knowing that Anakin's issues about losing his mother, could be resolved, if they freed her and he knew she was safe, they just leave her!
After changing they're minds to train Anakin (Lucas never bothered to give a reason why) they then decide to give him to a guy just made Knight, that very second, rather than an experienced Knight/Master who could spot the danger signs early.
Why they didn't bother to send more Jedi to capture Maul,is tailor made for one the Abrams excuse "A good question for another time"
In TCW they dismiss the notion that Dooku is behind Padmes attempted murder, for the simple fact he was once a Jedi and no other reason.
Obi wan after jumping through a skyscraper window, decides to tell Anakin to use patience and think !
Obi-Wan's This weapon is your life should require no explanation.
They didn't build a Clone Army and the fact the planet was deleted from the records, should have given them clues it's dangerous but hey it's a shiny new toy, and they want to play with it I guess.
The Jedi decide to start a Galatic war simply so they could rescue friends.

In ROtS it's like a war run be disorganised hippies
They put Anakin with Palpatine even though they know it's a bad idea and are planning a military coup before they know Palpatine is a Sith (what's a Sith ?)
After beating Palpatine in battle, Windu decides suddenly to go from arresting him to a an extra judicial execution !
While at the same time Obi-wan decides to jump into a bunch of killer robots to have a duel !
Then after all that when Palpatine is revealed as a Sith Lord, do Yoda and Obi-wan team up to take him or Vader down, nope. So do they show the recording holograms to the senate, nope. They just have 1 on 1 duel each, after which they just to decide to give up and live in exile.
Hell they don't even bother to train Luke and Leia while doing it either !

So to say the Jedi were written less sympathetic than that, is kind of hard to say.

 

It doesn't matter if he's a different character in TCW.*

He's still a petulant brat in AOTC, and a completely irrational, paranoid dumbass in ROTS. He's still entirely unjustified in his behavior.

No amount of one liners in TCW can change that. No amount of portraying the Jedi in a bad light in TCW can change that. Palpatine was still a Sith Lord who orchestrated the entire war (with all the implications, including the danger Padme was put in), and admitted it to Anakin's face. The Jedi were right to ask him to spy. The Jedi were right to want to defeat Palpatine. Nothing in TCW can even cast any doubt on that, or even make it ambiguous from Anakin's pov. In the end, Anakin's pov will never be justified, because it's entirely selfish, and involves genocide.

He can never have another go at Anakin Skywalker. The prequels were his chance, and they are what they are. There's no second chance.

TCW Anakin will always be too little, too late. He's just an illegitimate, lesser canon version, confined to a cartoon, overshadowed by the movies. It doesn't matter that people actually prefer the TCW version, it's not what they got when it counted.

*(Though it only serves to prove my point. The character in TCW is simply not Anakin, and you agree.)


Oh, and I question how much writing Lucas did for TCW. I mean, I don't think he got a single writing credit. Not that it matters. TCW cannot re-write the PT.