Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
What if he can't leave? Maybe the Sullustan owns Gregor.
I can understand them not diving too much into the CIS since they are the bad guys and these kinds of cartoons tend to follow the good guys. I would just hope that when the good guys cross paths with the bad guys that there would be more meaningful exchanges of dialogue. The kinds of cartoons I would compare TCW most to are those based off comic books, like the Superman/Batman/Spider-Man/X-Men cartoons I used to watch in the 90s. And even watching Spider-Man back in the 90s, I recall more meaningful confrontations between Spider-Man and villains like Doc Oc, Green Goblin, etc. than Dooku fighting Anakin for the 1,000,000th time with nothing productive really happening and no light really being shed on what Dooku's goals are or who he is beyond some mustache twirling "I'm evil, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk" villain. Even those kind of villains in the comic book cartoons generally had some clearly articulated goals beyond chilling out on Naboo, killing Rishi Loo randomly and then fighting Anakin so that he can be exchanged for Grievous... with the CIS and Dooku getting the short end of that deal.
On a completely different note, I'm hoping to explore the nature of the Force, specifically the issue of "balance." I bought issue 1 of Dawn of the Jedi and in one page I feel like they touched upon the concept more in depth than TCW has done when characters like Father speak vaguely about the concept, or how Jedi maintain balance by adhering strictly to the light side.
Granted, I don't know much about the origins of the Jedi, so this looks like it might be an interesting comic (I admit it was much better than I thought it would be). But this predecessor Jedi group has a way more literal explanation of balance, such that light side and dark side define one another and that it is OK to feel hate so long as you don't let it consume you, and that conversely hate can be productive so that denying it completely (as the Jedi do) would also lead to imbalance.
Meanwhile in the films and TCW we have Sith following the Dark Side and Jedi following the Light Side. The Father warns against too much of one over the other and yet the Jedi avoid the Dark Side completely, while this precursor group teaches that one should never be a prisoner to the Light Side nor the Dark Side but a balance between both. With a yin/yang nature to the Force, I can't see any coherent explanation as to how destroying the Sith restores balance when the Sith themselves are just the counterpoint to the Jedi, and through counteracting forces balance in maintained in the concept of yin/yang. Jedi and Sith seem like two polarized ideologies stemming from an original ideology that combined elements of both and was balanced. It makes sense. Father's aim of balance makes sense to me if he is trying to tell Anakin that the Jedi are just as much at fault as the Sith for causing imbalance since they adhere to a polarized, imbalanced view. But that lesson seemed to go through one ear and out the other, and the issue of balance just seems like some random thing brought up in the prequels that is never thoroughly explained in the films or TCW, or at least the explanation does not lead to any kind of character development.
If Father tells Anakin that the Dark Side is an essential part of the Force, then feelings such as hate and anger which conform to the Dark Side should not be abstained from since they are natural and potentially productive emotions so long as they are balanced by positive emotions (supported by Dawn of the Jedi). Yet we don't see any kind of development in Anakin like that. Anger and hate are still treated strictly as evil and it is never articulated as to why evil is necessary. Or how there is the metaphor/imagery of Anakin controlling both light side and dark side in bringing Son and Daughter to their knees with Father arguing that only the Chosen One could command both his children (with one an avatar of the light side and the other of the dark side), yet Anakin pretty much just goes back to the Jedi view of the universe which is far more restrictive in how they relate to the Dark Side.
It just seems like they introduced a yin/yang concept... but then proceed to show how in practice it is never actually treated as such except in vague explanations rather than actions or development. I see no reason why the Jedi should not be aiming to imbalance the Force in favor of the light side, since other than "because someone said so" the dark side is not shown to produce anything constructive via balance.
I very much doubt the Sullustan even knows Gregor is a Republic Commando. He likely thinks Gregor's just some guy who can't remember who he is, so he puts him to work cleaning dishes.
No, they are doing because the Republic is not better AND because they are lazy. FACT.
Would it be a twist that the Sullustan is actually a Separatist commander who has an order to contain Gregor under all circumstances.
That design is certainly evocative of this:
If the show does not develop it's villains and/or not making them a threat, there is a much smaller reason for us to care for what the good guys do.
Good villains is part of what makes a show great. Some of the best animated shows in history have had great developed rogues galleries aka Batman TAS or Spiderman as you mentioned.
Pre Vizsla is a well-developed villain. Likewise Pong Krell and Miraj Scintel. It has been fascinating to see Vizsla's evolution over the series and he'll undoubtedly evolve even more in the Mauldalore arc, while the two aforementioned one-arc villains are fleshed out very well. Asajj Ventress' story in TCW has been spectacular. However, it's a shame that the majority of villains actually fully aligned with the CIS never have much depth. This is particularly unfortunate considering the grey areas of the Clone Wars and the fact that the CIS is not the extreme moustache-twirling faction that the Galactic Empire is, whether in TCW, AOTC or in other EU media.
Shying away from political nuance is doing TCW no good. The conflict as presented is inherently political and any active participant in the war is in essence a political soldier. From the Jedi through the senators to the soldiers, every character or institution other than Sidious himself has taken a side for a political reason. To be clear, more political themes would greatly enhance the show's rogues gallery.
It would be great for TCW to do some actual exploration of the villains to flesh out their motives. One of the things which makes Maul and Deathwatch such interesting bad guys in the series is their motives have been fleshed out. Count Dooku, Grievous (?) have never gotten any focus. The CIS as a whole has barely been fleshed out beyond being a bunch of droids with some really mean leaders who set fire to innocent villages on Ryloth, having their own senate that is basically a sham, and a boy whose dad was killed by clones to show folks on that side get hurt as well. It baffling. Kids cartoons regularly follow just a small group of main characters (3-7) but they do normally flesh out the villains.
Animorphs which is freaking intermediate book series managed to give a sympathetic motive to a race of parasitic slugs violently enslaving people and even had me doubting they really had any blame for what they were doing. Really K.A. Applegate turned it aroud and made the Andalites look heartless. Come on TCW! This isn't hard and I know you've got 100 more episodes to do it! Lets add some OCs to the CIS so we can have some more engaging villain vs. hero interactions. Honestly the way TCW handles the villains is one of the reasons I often end up comparing TCW to the lameness that is Power Rangers and even Power Rangers has given villains exploration before. <3 Astronema and Ecliptor.
One good way to flesh out the CIS would be to explore some of the motivations for secession. As the U.S. Civil War and even the American Revolutionary War show, motivation for either separatism or unionism doesn't need to be benevolent at all, so this would still allow TCW to continue portraying the Republic as the (net) "good guys".
This would be an opportunity to explore the role of the Separatist Council. I never imagined the Council to remotely resemble a legislative body as some seemed to assume. I always saw it as just a group of top Separatist financiers and oligarchs who meet in secret with their Sith allies on occasion and discuss their plans like a kind of Space Illuminati. That's what they were in AOTC. This does not mean they lack legitimate ties to the CIS. Not at all. The Corporate Alliance is shown in TCW to have a representative in the CIS legislature. The use by Wat Tambor of CIS military resources to plunder Ryloth reminds me a lot of mining magnate Cecil Rhodes' use of UK military resources to plunder Africa and other examples from the history of European colonialism. Many figures in the Scramble for Africa and the Age of Exploration were state-backed entrepreneurs who resemble the Separatist oligarchs in many ways. A TCW story inspired by this era and featuring the CIS in the antagonistic role would be quite appropriate.
I'd say that, on balance, TCW has done well to hint at the complexity of the CIS. The introduction of a CIS legislature was a superb development which helped to tie the show back to the origins of the CIS in AOTC. However, the actual stories involving CIS villains lack complexity or much nuance, with villains who are crazy or caricatured villains, or else apparent anti-villains who inevitably end up on the Republic side in the end. Judging by how the Onderon arc - written by a veteran of The Wire and involving the politics surrounding the "good Separatist" Mina Bonteri - actually progressed, it sometimes seems like TPTB are actively trying to squeeze it out of canon.
This is disappointing. The CIS - as it has been portrayed in AOTC and even much of TCW - should be the source of sophisticated villainy and a spectrum of greyness and nuance. It isn't Nazi Germany; that's the Galactic Empire's job. There's so much that's hinted at which could produce some incredible antagonist characters, but this rarely follows through to the stories told. TCW should use its remaining seasons in part to fulfil the enormous potential of the CIS.
Here are some of the types of antagonistic Separatists which could be portrayed who don't necessarily fit into the dog-kicking psychopath mould:
1. CIS oligarch who takes issue with Republic interference in their presumed sphere of influence;
2. Sincere political Separatist with a less-than-egalitarian ideology, ie. having interests and perspectives closely aligned with 1.;
3. Prominent military officer or public servant who merely follows their planet into the CIS and sticks with it out of duty;
4. Someone aligned with CIS only out of expediency, simply because the Republic is their enemy;
5. Sincere political Separatist who is genuinely good-intentioned, though not necessarily saintly by any means (massive overlap with 2., since you definitely don't need bad intentions to take issue with egalitarian ideas).
We've already seen a few examples of 1. and 5., but it would be great to see some characters who lie between these two ends of the spectrum and, of course, more examples of the 1st and 5th types. It would make a huge difference if they didn't always defect to the Republic by the end like General Tandin and Nossor Ri.
Sophisticated villainy refers to someone who uses the subtle methods of real-world military/political figures to advance their agenda rather than the crude, simplistic methods we normally see being used by TCW's CIS villains. For example, someone like a media mogul (imagine a CIS Hearst or Murdoch) or a number of them who control the political discourse in the CIS and thus set the agenda among the plebs on behalf of the Sith/Council.
It is also a good idea to show a holistic picture of the Clone Wars. Showing precisely why the various Separatists take issue with the Republic - and the chancellorship of Palpatine in particular - would be beneficial to the show. Showing the embryonic elements of the Galactic Empire is good, along with the "bad Loyalists" of legend, but going into more detail about the distinction between the ideologies of the Separatists and the Loyalists would work towards this. For instance, we know that Mina Bonteri has her own ideological reasons for supporting the CIS while Padme has her own for opposing it, and while we know about the latter from AOTC, we don't know much about Mina's. Going by the PT it's probable that the Separatists are motivated by a sort of libertarianism, with the obvious implication being that the Loyalists are motivated by a variant of social democracy or egalitarian liberalism. It's easy to understand why Mina would amicably disagree with Padme and why she throws her lot in with the cartels if you read this into TCW, but TCW is not particularly clear about the political distinctions between Separatists and Loyalists.
Very well said. TCW has started really to portray The CIS in the most horrible ways. TCW writers really do not know how to write this side of the war.
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, ...
That is the best equivalent of the CIS I have heard on this forum or any other. They are the Illuminati. They sure felt like that - meeting in secret, deciding the fate of the galaxy... THEY ARE!!!
Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, San Hill, Tikkes, Po Nudo, Passel Argente and Shu Mai - they need to be more explored as the bad people they were in AOTC and in ROTS.
They were pawns in the end but they were important in Sidious's master plan and the show has done nothing about that - make us feel how important they are.
These are too complex and sophisticated ideas for TCW writers and Lucas. I really like 1 and 3. I like your ideas of CIS commanders that have honor and something other than being evil/ stupid pawns like King Rash or Riff Tamson.
At one point I was thinking the show was gonna go the route of making many different villains but they like to really do ONE-note villains for the CIS and yet pretend to explore deep and interesting characters.
I always imagined Po Nudo to be the kind of CIS leader to do so - create propaganda and control media and corrupt/makeup things inside the CIS. Even if Po Nudo got the job from San Hill and Wat Tambor.
I have nothing against the good separatists, it showed a good side of the CIS but it was done really sudden and with no regards to the Real people in charge - The Separatist Council.
It was done like both cancelled each other out and IMO the council should have appeared by now since by the end of S2 TCW was pushing the title "Separatist Leader" and I was hoping they would appear.
But in the middle of S3, Lucas loses his mind and ditches all the CIS leaders in favor of a new government and a neutral (kinda) Trade Federation.
It is just a mess if you ask me. A mess that needs to be fixes and the CIS council allowed to appear.
I would love to see the Death Star start to be built during this series
This is by far the best thing I've seen/heard all day.
They are a bunch of bankers. I've never seen the indication that they all sit around with Dooku and plot CIS policy. Instead it just seems like Dooku goes to San Hill, says he wants to construct some new super weapon. San Hill forwards money to the Techno Union and Wat Tambor, and Dooku pays off San Hill's loan. That super weapon is put under Grievous' control, but Grievous sucks and gets it destroyed, then Dooku goes to the CIS Council and orders another one, making everyone but Dooku richer, with Dooku's money coming from taxes, plunder and personal wealth. And depending on how much money is actually taken out of taxes, the CIS senate could be pretty happy if Dooku has been able to provide them adequate protection without taxing the hell out of the populace, which might be an incentive for planets to join the CIS.
Looking at the films themselves, I don't really see any indication that the CIS Council has any kind of political authority. It's somewhat implied, given their type of character and prestige, but beyond that they just seem like the guys with the money.
We've seen the Trade Federation and Banking Clans hold more political power in the Republic itself than the CIS. On the CIS side of things, the only real role they've shown to have is the face value role that everyone knows them to have - their role providing financial services, and as the owners, financers and manufacturers of the CIS military hardware.
I don't really see the need for political authority. The political manipulations of the Republic senate are all in the interest of greater profit for the commerce guilds. When it comes to the CIS, less political intrigue is required if they can talk to Dooku directly and get him to sign off on purchasing more ships, droids, etc. I think they're pretty well taken care of on the CIS side of things. Every droid and ship that gets destroyed by the Republic is money in their pocket when Dooku has to order replacements. And every clone that is killed on the Republics side costs the Republic money which the commerce guilds can try to manipulate the senate into passing legislature beneficial to the commerce guilds in exchange for a clone loan.
I'm definitely not opposed to this!
To be honest, while I would like to see more depth in the Separatist Council and general leadership of the CIS in order to provide the series with more storytelling nuance, I don't find them that interesting or important. I understand some fans find them interesting, but they never really did much in the films or the EU I encountered to make them appear any more than a bunch of business men that payed for the CIS war machine. Gunray is the only one that honestly seems to have any actual character.
Here are the ratings for the last three episodes:
“A Necessary Bond” got a rating of 1.39, which was 0.23 lower than its corresponding episode in s4, the 8th episode that wasn’t a premier episode
"Secret Weapons" got a rating of 1.46, which was 0.11 lower than its corresponding episode in s4, the 9th episode that wasn’t a premier episode
"A Sunny Day in the Void" got a rating of 1.43, which was 0.06 better than its corresponding episode in s4, the 10th episode that wasn’t a premier episode
Until this point the episodes in s5 have in general had a higher rating than there corresponding episodes in s4, (which is a very good thing), but the ratings have really taken a down turn recently. So far 7 of 11 episodes total in s5 have had a better rating than their corresponding episodes in s4.
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't A Necessary Bond air when it was Thanksgiving in the US? So that accounts for why the rating was low then.
Perhaps the ratings of the two droid episodes reflects how little interest there is in droid arcs overall.
I wonder if its possible for TCW to ever explore the notion of child soldiers. There are obviously some Jedi Padawans that fit that description (Ahsoka? I dunno...). Maybe follow one of them a little. Maybe one of the young Jedi could be used for this. Maybe a Separatist planet could do this. I got on a nostalgia trip and reread the last two books in the Animorphs series and damn it had me thinking.
I find the treatment of the Jedi confusing and inconsistent.
It gets established that most people don't know the difference between a Sith and a Jedi; it gets established that many don't trust the Jedi; but Huyang tells Gungi that his people are surely proud of him as though becoming a Jedi is the ultimate honor and privilege.
Why is it an honor to send your child off to an institution you really know nothing about, a religion you don't really care about, and a group you don't really trust?
Where do most younglings come from? Unwanted births that just so happen to yield Force sensitive children? Dooku had a claim to a title and his parents gave him to the order which apparently prevented him from ever claiming that title. Was being a Jedi considered of greater prestige, or was that a political move to block Dooku from inheriting a claim to nobility? I mean, some European nobles would send their younger sons off to be raised by the church and become clergymen so as to eliminate the potential for inheritance squabbles between an heir and his younger siblings. Was Dooku becoming a Jedi a means by which to keep him out of political affairs? *cough* Dooku story *cough*
Are most of the children either unwanted or being given up by desperate mothers that want better for their children? Or do even the upper echelons of society give up their children? Why? What do the Jedi think of the Force sensitives in the galaxy that have parents that refuse to give them up? Is there a risk of them becoming dangerous and developing Force powers without learning responsibility?
If the Jedi are so prestigious and trusted, why does the senate applaud their annihilation? If they aren't really that prestigious and are looked upon more with suspicion and mistrust, then why are they allowed to have a seat of power so close to the political center?
In the films there didn't seem to be any danger in Luke or Anakin going untrained, since aside from seeing things before they happened, neither had the ability to Force choke people or anything like that, even after 19 years (in Luke's case). Meanwhile someone like Palpatine and Plagueis are described as having developed powers as children that they could abuse and cause severe harm to their peers. Did the Jedi have the authority to seize such a child without consent from the parents? Seems like it would be kind of hard to prove that said child has a connection to a supernatural power and that he snapped his playmate's neck with an energy field created by all living things. Not the kind of thing that I'd imagine the secular Galactic senate would pass legislature on any way.
You send a 14 old off to war and everyone's OK with this? Even if Ahsoka can take care of herself and the Jedi have complete faith in her, I would think that politicians would be all over that as unethical *cough* Padme *cough* But after the clone army, I think the Republic has a warped moral compass. If I ever saw a child soldier being sent off to war, I would think that would be horribly wrong. It wouldn't matter if someone told me that they've survived several firefights and were an excellent soldier, that's still messed up.
Does religion actually exist in a GFFA? We have nightsisters' "magic" and the Force of the Sith and Jedi. But does Joe Blow have a religion? Does he believe in the Force even though he can't manipulate it? Dodonna wished the Force to be with the Rebels despite there not being a Jedi among them, so I guess that's a confirmation that there is a belief in the Force even by non-Force users. Are there any other groups that explain the supernatural in another way, just as there are many religions today that see the world in sometimes starkly different ways.
Are there other forms of Force/magic out there beside the Jedi/Sith/Nightsister paths? How do the Jedi/Sith relate to these? Does Sidious regard the Nightsisters as a threat to be given an Order 66 of their own? What about other magic groups (if there are any)?
Etc. etc. etc.
Hmmmm.... well here goes.
I don't think the Jedi are much like conventional religions. Some compare them to monks, but the Jedi seem higher profile than that even if most don't seem to have ever seen one. There isn't much question about whether the Jedi are real unlike god. A Jedi literally could perform a miracle right before your eyes by lifting your car and putting it ontop of your house. Ok, that wouldn't really be a miracle. Jedi are like the saviors of the Republic, right? They've been so for a long, long time, right? I don't know if parents would be desperate, unless they are really bad off. It would probably just be viewed as an honor to send your kid off to join the Jedi. To becomes a powerful keeper of peace in the galaxy. Kinda like how in some societies it would be considered an honor to send your kid into the military. It just happens alot earlier. I guess Jedi as a whole could work for the child soldiers I'm looking for. I have wondered if parents would be required to give their babies up or if it would be optional. The republic is a big place. Thinking about how many star systems there are and how vastly populated the republic must be I don't think candidates would really be very rare.
I think we're going to see TCW start to explain why the senate is all cheers for the extermination of the Jedi.
@AkashKedavra_93 had a great point bringing up where Palpatine's speech about how rediculous it is to think the Jedi are conspiring the war to gain power. That was in "Lightsaber Lost". Those thoughts are out there.
Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content)
I can see where what is going to happen to Mandalore this season could be blamed on the Jedi if Obi-wan is caught on camera (so to speak). That would fit beautifully into Palpatines plan. This will all come to a head at the end of the season it seems.
I can see where what is going to happen to Mandalore this season could be blamed on the Jedi if Obi-wan is caught on camera (so to speak). That would fit beautifully into Palpatines plan. This will all come to a head at the end of the season it seems.
As hlc88 said, “A Necessary Bond” was during thanksgiving so that of course has an effect, but its still worrying with the ratings for the Droid arc. I think the arc is awfull, and certainly dont think it should get good ratings, but hopefully people wont leave the show because of it(that would be terrible for the shows future).
It goes beyond the scope of TCW, but I also wondered if it was public knowledge that Vader is Anakin Skywalker. The novelization goes with the idea that Obi-Wan and Anakin are galactic heroes and household names. So if shortly after the events of ROTS Palpatine went public with an update on the suppression of the Jedi Rebellion and fed the public the lie that Obi-Wan made an "attempt on [Anakin's] life that left him scarred and deformed," then it would really help to manipulate the public because you have a war hero denouncing the group to which he belonged and is a physical reminder of the Jedi's betrayal of the galaxy and the price Anakin was willing to pay to defend the new Empire (or so the story would go).
But then you would just have Anakin taking on the name of "Darth Vader" which would just be awkward if the galaxy was already aware of a "Darth Maul" that threatened the galaxy earlier and would be a little suspicious. Or unless the public caught on real fast that Palpatine was feeding them a complete lie but that with the Moffs exercising military law and loyalty to Palpatine that the Senate couldn't really do anything about it.
Palpatine says that he will hunt down and defeat the Jedi traitors. It just seems like the senate would catch on that there seems to be a 100% mortality rate and none of the Jedi are coming back alive to stand trial and answer for their crimes, and that younglings were being executed. Unless the senate was just so warped that they didn't care. Just seems odd that the senate would unanimously applaud Palpatine or bite their tongue. Nobody knows Palpatine is a Sith. They think he's a hero and have no reason to think that they're going to be dragged out into the street and shot if they stand against him. Bail saw first hand that Palpatine was betraying the Jedi and he maybe told Padme to bite her tongue under fear that she might just disappear the next day if she spoke out against him. But for not one the thousands of senators or representatives to denounce the declaration of the Empire right then and there seems odd.
In the cut scenes it seems like everyone is on edge around Palpatine (speaking mostly in regards to fear of the petition against him), yet we haven't even begun to reach that point in TCW. I'd like to see more political opposition to Palpatine, preferably from an original character, and see how Palpatine handles that. Does someone wind up dead with some of the senators being extremely suspicious of Palpatine killing off political opponents?
You asked a whole slew of questions, but I think one example (pictured) shows that - at least one youngling - was not given up by a desperate mother, but seems to be presented to the a Jedi Master by her Togrutan community.
As far as children being sent off to war, there is the example of the Children's Crusade in the Middle Ages, and there are other examples of child soldiers, albeit in very unstable third world countries. As far as Force attuned beings in the Jedi Order, I would imagine they make up an extremely small percentage of the overall population of the SW galaxy.
It doesn't matter what the percentage is. If it was discovered that there was a single 14 year old in the American army, that's not something that people are inclined to say "oh, but it's just one." The Jedi aren't like normal 14 year olds in their abilities, but I don't see why they would be any different mentally. If I teach a child a certain moral code and teach them how to shoot a gun at a young age does it become acceptable to send them off to war at the age of 13 or 14? I can appreciate suspension of disbelief, because we also have Lux - a non-Jedi - running around as a freedom fighter and his older peers don't seem to see the immorality of it.
And Lux's case actually sits a little more uneasy with me as it is more similar to "freedom fighters" in the real world that use child soldiers, when it should be the adult's responsibility to keep the children out of harm's way, not give them an RPG and a pat on the back.
As to the nature of Jedi recruitment. I'm impartial one way or another. I don't care if people willingly give up their children, or if they're desperate parents. Though I wish they touched upon how the Jedi are viewed more coherently rather than them being mistrusted, poorly understood, and blamed for the war in one breath, but then looked upon as a prestigious institution that is the utmost honor to serve in the next.
I can't imagine many parents want to have children only to give them up to a dangerous vocation in which they'll be risking their lives and be forbidden from visiting their parents. Kind of defeats the point of having kids in the first place if you are going to forfeit responsibility and hand them over to someone else. That's generally the kind of thing that happens when you don't want kids or feel unsuited to care for one.
Good points, but the Clone Wars just started, so perhaps before the Clone Wars it was considered the highest honor in the galaxy for your child so be sought after by the Jedi Order. They were considered the "keepers of the peace", not "soldiers" as Mace Windu put it. Being a Jedi may not have been perceived as a dangerous vocation before the Clone Wars. And certainly not an order to be mistrusted and despised as Emperor Palpatine eventually made them out to be.