Discussion in 'Live Action, Clone Wars & Classics' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
Plo is using his gravitational pull on her. Sorry, just needed to make a long story short.
I didn't realize that gravitational pull was one of the Jedi's Force Powers.
I don't see how appearing two days after Thanksgiving has an affect on ratings, but assuming it did, it can't be any more than the affect it had last year, when "Kidnapped" premiered the day after Thanksgiving. Any affect Thanksgiving has had this year is canceled out by the affect it had last year.
The only difference as far as Thanksgiving and the ratings would be the show's premiere on Saturday mornings this year and Friday nights last year, but I don't think that would matter either.
I think touching on accelerating public distrust, or distrust in the Senate, of the Jedi would be interesting, as Palpatine was able to carry out Order 66 and convince the Senate that the Jedi were "enemies of the Republic" as easily as he did because he had spent so much time sowing public distrust in the Jedi.
The Jedi method of recruitment did play into public mistrust, and it might be interesting to look at it from the eyes of an ordinary person or several ordinary people in the galaxy. (I used to have strong opinions on the subject but I'm over it.)
The weekend following Thanksgiving is traditionally the start of the weaker rating season which runs until the start of the year. It might not effect the kiddie shows as much but Toonami on Saturday nights also took a major hit on the 1st.
From Toonzone the 6-11 age group ratings if anyone cares. Remember that's Cartoon Networks target audience.
CARTOON NETWORK 1.5/8 Avg. (7a-1p) - Dec 1st
Scan 2 Go 0.7/7; Ninjago 1.1/10; Beyblade: Metal Fury 1.0/6; Pokemon B&W: Rival Destinies 1.6/9; Ben 10: Omniverse 1.8/8; Star Wars: Clone Wars 1.3/6; Dragons: Riders of Berk 1.3/6; Dragons: Riders of Berk 1.7/8; Johnny Test 1.9/9; Johnny Test1.8/8; Johnny Test 1.5/7; Amazing World of Gumball 1.7/8
CARTOON NETWORK 1.5/7 Avg. (7a-1p) - Dec 8th
Scan 2 Go 0.7/7; Ninjago 1.2/10; Beyblade: Metal Fury 1.1/7; Pokemon B&W: Rival Destinies 1.7/9; Ben 10: Omniverse 1.5/6; Star Wars; Clone Wars 1.4/6; Dragons: Riders of Berk 1.2/5; Dragons: Riders of Berk 1.7/7; Amazing World of Gumball 2.2/9; Amazing World of Gumball 1.8/8; Grandma Got Runover By A Reindeer (1x60) 1.8/8
I also would like to see more public distrust of the Jedi as well as in the senate. I'm interested in exploring the civilian relationship with the Jedi in TCW. I agree that before TCW there was probably never a reason to fear or distrust them. They were peace keepers. It was probably an honor to give your baby to the Jedi order. However most citizens seem to know the Jedi in name having never met one. I think both Obi-wan and Anakin would be somewhat famous but not renowned across the galaxy. I've wondered if association with Anakin would make Ahsoka at all well known.
Sure, the normal folks looking at a young Padawan with a lightsaber might have a similar reaction to any sensible adult watching a child play with a deadly weapon. But I'm not sure what that would do. The younglings were all kids as heart so they could work. But Onderon could have been an opportunity with Lux but we can go all day in five different threads about all the wasted opportunity there. I would just like some exploration. TCW goes into all kinds of dark territory so the effects on a child soldier since they have happened already in the show seems like a natural one.
I'm being lazy here, but could someone give me a quick list of reasons why people would distrust the Jedi? Would appreciate it, thanks.
When it comes to making a decision about handing your kid over to the Jedi, hopefully you're thinking about that kid's best interest rather than your own. I'm not saying that handing them over is the only conclusion, but I would hope that any parent would give it serious consideration.
The biggest reason I can think of to hand your kid over is the Force. It's just something parents can never offer. If the Jedi want your kid, the Force is going to part of that kid's life whether you want it to be or not. It's always going to be there, it's going to be part of the kid's identity even if (s)he doesn't know it, and not knowing and being able to express that part of themselves might hurt the kid in profound ways. If you think of the Force on a religious/spiritual level, then that kid is absolutely going to have God inside him/her, but (s)he's never going to have any spiritual guidance. It's like a kid believing (correctly, because the Force does exist) in God basically since birth, but never given the chance to go to church or participate in any religious practices or customs or have any exposure to religion at all, really. They're going to feel things, they're going to know things, but they'll never have more than a vague understanding of it, so they're going to struggle with their own existence, with the why and how of the universe. They're going to feel that something is just wrong, with them or their reality, they're going to feel unfulfilled/incomplete/lost/depressed. All they'll know is that they're different, they aren't like other people in some way and that there is more to the galaxy than they know, than their parents have told them. They'll never get the answers they need.
The kid will have the ability to feel and use the Force, I would consider them never doing so to be a tragedy. To use Spock's phrase, becoming a Jedi "is their first, best destiny". It's the same as an artist never getting the chance to express themselves, a leader never getting the chance to lead, a warrior never getting the chance to fight, etc.
The end of Animorphs is so sad.
I think child soldiers is quite a dangerous territory and it will have to be done very carefully.
I'm not sure why they are mistrusted, though it has been pointed out that in Lightsaber Lost, there is the televised address from Palpatine going on in the background where he is defending the Jedi from those that would accuse them of starting the war to gain more power. If there is no distinction between a Jedi and Sith, then the only thing I can think of is that Dooku is viewed as the Jedi that split the galaxy in two and is behind the war. But how the public comes to the generalization that even the Jedi loyal to the Republic are part of some conspiracy for power, I don't know.
I just think such concepts would be interesting to have touched upon definitively. The Darth Plagueis novel seemed to imply that there was no danger from an untrained Force sensitive. It's mentioned that the Sith want to destroy the Jedi Order, but the destruction of the Jedi isn't going to stop Force sensitives from being born, and Plaugeis mentions that there is no danger posed by the untrained. In addition, aside from Luke's uncanny ability to shoot things 2-meters wide, it didn't really seem like the Force manifested itself in him in a potentially dangerous way. But on the other hand, we seen infants using the Force in Children of the Force and Palpatine was able to use the Force to deadly effect without training. For the sake of argument, say the Jedi found Palpatine at a young age and Palpatine's parents said that they will not give up their son to the Jedi, what then? Can the Jedi take the kid anyway? It seems like a danger to be letting someone so powerful run around without training, despite what Plagueis says.
Same thing goes with failed students. What would have happened had Anakin been expelled from the Jedi Order? Expelling a Jedi seems like a remarkably irresponsible thing to do. Anakin is incredibly powerful and yet has volatile emotions. If the Jedi were to wash their hands of Anakin, kick him out of the Order and unleash him back into the galaxy, that seems horribly wrong. Especially when you see what happens with Dooku. Allowing someone so powerful just to leave/be expelled seems dangerous. If I were a common person that found out the Jedi were expelling students and letting them go unchecked back into the galaxy, or that they just let Dooku walk away and now he's a tyrant enslaving planets, I'd be pretty pissed at the Jedi.
Much like treatment of Padmé as well- it is probably because of many writers having different views about characters.
There is no real problem since some people trust the jedi and some don't. Some know the difference of a Sith and a Jedi, mostly those that know jedi or history of the Republic. Those who don't know the sith are not well aware of history and Dooku is generally seen as "rogue jedi" who now leads the CIS and not as a Sith Lord.
Huyang is an ancient droid that is from the era when the jedi were more respected and he may not follow the news too often.
Besides Wookiees are friends of the jedi thanks to Master Yoda who has personally formed good ties with wookiee community. Wookiees believe in the Force and like the jedi so much that they soon rebel and help some fugitive jedi during the Great Purge that starts with order 66.
It is also interesting how Chewbacca's future partner Han Solo has no belief in the Force while Chewie has, but I think that such difference never caused much problems between them. It's like real theists and atheists that can get along very well if they decided not to argue about the existence of gods.
Some trust and some don't, same with jedi religion. Those who don't trust of course see no honor in that.
Non-sensitives can have sensitive children, but I'm not sure if that is never explained fully. Some children are wanted and some unwanted. Sensitivity is rather rare, but sensitives always have sensitive children it seems.
I guess being a jedi prevents being a nobleman at the same time, I dunno about Dooku's family though. TCW could tell more about Dooku.
This is a thing they should've explored when they made that Holocron-arc. I think that jedi cannot even find all the sensitive children and not all parents are willing to give them up to the jedi, In that case they are probably left alone. Risk of becoming a dark sider is rather small after sith seemingly disappeared, most of the dark side teachings are kept in the vaults of the jedi archives where only the great masters like the council members have access to them. I don't know if discovery of sith changed jedi to more strict policy though- this could make them hated if they take children away without their parent's acceptance.
Palpatine is more trusted and when jedi suddenly launch "assassination attempt" against him many senators think that real enemy has revealed himself and mistakenly believe Palpatine.
Especially when military stands with Palpy those seantors who trust more in jedi keep their mouth shut. Palpatine used to be one who "trusts the jedi" and many times it may have been the only reason why senate trusted jedi since many senators are probably bit suspicious of jedi.
Palpatine used the Clone War as a possibility to create as much distrust and suspicions towards jedi as possible without completely destroying the relations of the jedi and commoners but just enough that order 66 would be possible.
I think he was rather clever when defending them in public then later he probably regrets that he "trusted so much in the conspiring jedi". Palpatine managed to get the republic over many crises (he usually caused himself) so more and more people started to trust in him personally and more and more they started to blame on jedi (just like he wanted) and people trusted more in Palpy than the jedi, Palpy being the only reason why many still trusted the jedi (because Palpy trusted in them).
Palpy assured during the war that jedi can be trusted until he had to admit (after jedi attempt to "overthrow the Republic") that he was wrong and jedi are not to be trusted, then he regained the trust of many people by organising the jedi purge to correct his previous "mistake" (that was trusting the jedi)
I don't think that Force is exactly considered officially "Supernatural" in GFFA- according to sourcebooks and all there is even "jedi scientists" so I guess those Force-things automatically are jedi business and they have autonomy to decide about such cases. Normal people may see jedi as supernatural beings though.
Jedi are obviously different than normal "child soldiers". I guess that it is considered unethical if non-jedi child would be a soldier in similar manner.... I dunno maybe it is just "normal" in GFFA to have children battling....
There are religions in GFFA but the Force is actual reality unlike dubious religions with gods and supernatural beings (even though their existence IU is possible as well) that also exists (like gungans and their "guds")
Different views of the Force are religions of their own differing between ethnic groups, species and cultures. The Force has been Republic's ally in the form of the jedi so I think some kind of Force-religion exists amongst people and Empire tries to remove this in propaganda that makes it "ancient superstition" and all things related to the Force are considered dangerous since only Emperor and Vader with their assassins and stuff are people who re allowed to use the Force and know about it. Rebels had force-users amongst them according to TFU and many people are old friends of the jedi (including Dodonna, if we believe EU he was Republic officer in the Clone Wars)
According to EU there is other groups as well (Sorcerer's of Tund for example) but I dunno about "George's vision". Whills were mentioned in ROTS-script and then the Force-wielders of Mortis were one at least.
I know that the "Force exists" in the Star Wars universe, but that doesn't mean that everyone believes in it. Han didn't, and Motti seemed to regard Vader as some sorceror. Talzin's magic exists too, but Dooku and Grievous seem to disregard it as cheap parlor tricks and illusions. If there are other groups, there can still be the attitude that the Force and/or Talzin's magic are real, but this third group is nothing more than superstitious shamans using tricks, even though their power is very real in their own right.
IMO instead of seeing new lightsaber wielding Force users come and go through Rule of Two loopholes, I kind of want to see the other powers of the Galaxy (other sorcerers/magic/Force users beyond the Jedi, Sith and Nightsisters).
I meant that Republic senate seems to accept it's existence as scientific natural fact, but thinks that it is jedi business. In Empire it was probably hushed issue that belonged to Emperor's inner circle- not too different than before only more secret and unofficial, officially it may've been non-existent even. Motti is so young he has imperial attitude while Tarkin for example doesn't seem to have a lack of faith and he asks Vader to stop using the Force. Motti considers Vader sorcerer yet he had demonstration that the Force is real. In TPM Jar Jar also says that he doesn't believe in the allpowerful Force- same as Han actually. They know that there is something but don't consider it "all-powerful Force controlling everything" Han says it he thinks that the Force is cheap tricks and nonsense that is how people like Motti sees it and Han or Jar Jar (before they befriend with jedi of course)
I think that Dooku has to accept that Talzin has powers that are real, his attitude is mainly disregard though. There was also that Rish Loo, that gungan minister who had some powers like magical talisman- I think he was also Force-sensitive unless there is other sort of "real" magic in GFFA.
Well they had the Mortis with those superpowerful beings. Surely they can do more that magicstuff but I dunno if that would work out too well, it was even bit of a stretch to add nightsisters in the show.
Most of the distrust was due to the perceived secrecy and isolation. People didn't trust what they didn't understand, and they were afraid of their power.
This link does a good job summing it up:
Palpatine used his best manipulative powers to fuel that distrust during the war, and it worked.
Very good point as far as the parents handing the kids over; refusing would be the same as a parent in our world refusing to allow his or her child to pursue a dream or a talent simply because the parent didn't want to be separated; selfish to the core on the parent's part. As far as why the separation and total lack of contact is necessary in the first place, I still think there might have been other options but after reading various posts in the EU forum (including a few from you and Valairy) I now get why the Jedi thought it was necessary. (And was a total lack of contact mandated anyway? I thought Aayla Secura was able to contact an uncle of hers at some point, and Mace Windu went back to Haruun Kal on his own. That aspect bothered me far more than the separation itself, but I digress.)
A show could explore a character like Vidar Kim from the Plagueis novel who willingly gave up a son to the Jedi Order (although not Kim himself, Palpatine had him killed before TPM, so yeah, don't do it, TCW) in dialogue with someone like Paudenette of the People's Inquest who think that the Jedi "steal" babies. Or some discussion about Quinlan Vos deflecting to the Separatists, distrust of the Jedi because Dooku used to be one--they could explore anti-war protests which included blaming the Jedi for the war, or People's Inquest protests. I don't think they could make an entire show out of it (although I didn't think they'd make an entire show out of droids wandering through a desert either) but on some level it would be interesting to see and would do something towards showing why the public so easily bought the idea that the Jedi would try to assassinate Palpatine in ROTS.
My favorite quote from Gargoyles: "What humans don't understand they fear. What humans fear they often seek to destroy." - Goliath. I think you can replace humans with 'people'. The people will grow to distrust and fear the Jedi via the clone wars as the Jedi become more or less the leaders of brutal clone soldiers. What was once a revered organization torn down to what looks more like a crazy club of dangerous conspirators. And all that jazz.
Aren't candidates taken at a very young age? Ahsoka in the screen grab doesn't look old enough to understand or be making such a critical decision. Its all on the parent to decide what is best. Sad the actual candidate will not have much choice in the matter do to the young age. But I guess its important to nurture that special talent. I wonder as well if the war is causing Jedi not to make it optional, particularly with sith running around. I'm still thinking it was likely also be viewed as an honor atleast in the past.
Yeah it was a really sad ending. Its a real mindscrew. I actually like it unlike alot of Animorphs fans. Its a realistic ending. There is just no way after all those youngins' went through having to grow up so fast fighting a whole bloody war by themselves they were all going to come out on the other side okay (or even alive), particularly Jake. One of my favorite things about Animorphs is how it deconstructed the child/ teen superhero team; Wake up, go to school, and save the world trope by turning them into harden soldiers and putting them through brutal horrific battle after horrific battle.
Maybe you could hand them over to the Nightsisters or the Sith in that case, avoid the tragedy and all.
Well there's another point. Wouldn't a Force-sensitive child who isn't trained by the Jedi, be ripe for picking by the Sith? Look what Sidious had Bane do in Holocron Heist...
The Sith were extinct for a millennium.
Speaking of those children though, did the Jedi return those children to their parents when they rescued them? Or did they end up in Jedi care, removed from their parents for potentially the rest of their lives?
The Rodian mother for instance clearly was not ready to give up her child to someone she thought was a Jedi - were her wishes respected or did the Jedi invoke the legal rights (granted to them by the Republic) to simply keep the child, no questions asked?
The case of Baby Ludi is an interesting one.
I think it's cases like that of the Rodian mother that could be explored further (and I don't have an answer to whether her wishes were respected or not). But contrast such a case against a family like the Kims, who IIRC considered it an honor to have Ronhar trained at the Temple.
Hmmm... I am wondering about the force sensitive babies in "Children of the Force". I gave the Jedi the benefit of the doubt and assumed they honored the Rodian mom's wishes and the rest of the parents for that matter. But the newsreel for "The Gathering" does give me real doubt.
In regard to my earlier discussion about the introduction of other factions, like the Nightsisters. I don't see that as being a stretch at all. I'm not aware of any real world conflict referred to as a _____ wars (plural). And especially not an ongoing single conflict.
It would be one thing if the Republic and CIS were at war, made peace, at war, peace, and war again. And then the plural "Wars" would denote a series of wars happening in rapid succession but interrupted by brief periods of peace. Or alternatively, if there are various other factions that enter the conflict and go to war with one or more of the other participants. E.G. War between Republic and CIS, war between Republic and "Mauldalorians", war between CIS and Nightsisters, war of secession between Onderon and CIS.
I have no problem with any number of factions entering the war. I've been partial to the idea of the Hutts becoming more active in the war. The Republic and the CIS are the biggest two and the ones most important to Palpatine's plans. But proliferation of new factions can still throw kinks into that plan unexpectedly and when looking at conflicts in the real world that involve the collapse of a strong central authority, they often don't split neatly into two rival factions, but many: Sengoku-Jidai period of Japan; Three Kingdoms period of China (and several other periods); The Holy Roman Empire throughout most of its history; France when it proved unable to adequately repel Viking raids; the various constituents of the British Empire; proliferation of warlords during the Russian Civil War, etc.
Palpatine's regime proved unable to hold the Republic together. The CIS broke away, but there should be no shortage of groups seeking to capitalize on that conflict.
Maul has his own plans. Talzin has hers that seemingly would involve Maul and possibly Asajj, but she hasn't made any effort with those yet.
Just re-watching Season 2, the Battle of Malastare is great. Silent, ruthless battle droids just how they need to be.
That is a cool battle there at the beginning. The bomb being dropped is pretty intense.
Yup, it's pretty much perfect. I just wish they had introduced the ARC-170 Starfighters with a bit more fanfare, but they haven't really given vehicles detailed introductions since the Y-Wing Bombers in Season 1.
We know there are parents who felt giving their children to the Jedi was a great honor, but thats secondary. Just because the Kims viewed it as an honor doesn't mean that every parent will react the same way. Also all Jedi are not created equal. Would you trust Jorus C'baoth to value the opinions of parents when in his mind the will of the Force is clear? One Jedi mind trick and poof.........
And I don't distrust all Jedi, but they clearly had those within their ranks who made questionable decisions on many, many issues. Is there a Jax Pavan for every Kam Solusar?
What if the parent isn't a weak enough mind to fall for a mind trick? Do the Jedi then take the child by force?