Clone Wars Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    The Umbara arc was one that definitely needed a follow-up. As far as the media, I remember some mention of Palpatine controlling the Holonet completely by the end of the war. There could definitely be a twist on the Krell story, especially if Palpatine or any Senator wanted to make the clones look good in order to increase funding for the war.

    I'm not familiar with most of the C-canon cases that CT and Rob have been discussing but as far as Baby Ludi, my impression is that the Jedi were trying to do the right thing and the whole situation just ended up making them look bad. They rescued a kid from an earthquake, thinking that she was orphaned. Seems compassionate to me. And when the mother showed up some time later, Mace Windu assumed that the child had been too steeped in Jedi philosophy to safely be returned to "regular" society. Anakin used a similar line of reasoning in No Prisoners when explaining why he couldn't just leave the Order when he married Padme--his connection to the Force was part of his blood and just severing it would be impossible.

    I can see where the Jedi were coming from, and I can also see how a general public which does not understand the nature of Jedi training, could find such a philosophy suspicious.
  2. Esg Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    The mothers character was also kind of in question seeing how she was too busy preparing for a holodrama about her "ordeal" to give her opinion on the case later on
  3. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    I would buy this for the CIS, but not the Republic. With the CIS, the only people on the front lines of the war are droids, Grievous, Dooku and some other admirals and generals all of which have a common personality type that makes me think they're handpicked by Dooku. The media doesn't appear to have an equivalent to foreign correspondents documenting the war. I don't know if it's WWII style media, either filmed by the military itself (if any film/pictures are actually taken at all) or if it completely relies on interviews with officers and government personnel.

    If the media is not on the front lines of the war, then all you have to go by is what the military says. And with Dooku, Grievous, and the commerce guilds controlling a droid military, I think it would be much easier to keep a lid on everything and coordinate a conspiracy using the media, whereas the Republic doesn't have that same Legion of Doom villain group leading its government, and its military is led by Jedi, I would think it would be much harder to feed the public b.s.

    The only way around it I would think would be the institution of the Moffs and non-Jedi military commanders. They would be credible voices that could speak out against the Jedi.

    The institution of the moffs reminds me of the Shogun usurping military authority. You have the appointment of military governors who have authority to raise troops and coordinate defense, but whose authority it not supposed to interfere with the authority of civil administrators. Though as civil authority weakened, they stepped in and took over replacing the Imperial government with one run by Samurai.

    If Palpatine begins to institute moffs (which the Delegation of 2000 is really concerned about as an overstepping of central authority) which help to coordinate the war effort and are responsible for the defense of a certain territory, they would offer a means by which Palpatine could micromanage the war better, and would serve as reliable voices to report every little mistake the Jedi make (e.g. "Well we would have won the battle, but Obi-Wan Kenobi went back to rescue Eeth Koth, who was captured, jeopardizing the entire operation for one man and allowing General Grievous to get away; Rather than trusting an experienced general to lead the operation, the Jedi trusted command to the inexperienced Ahsoka Tano, who is only 15 years old, this error in judgement got all of the clones under her command killed and she nearly lost her life," etc.)
  4. fistofan1 Force Ghost

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    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    Speaking of Palpatine and the Umbara arc, when are we going to see the episodes about Order 66 that were hinted at a while ago? Or were they just talking about the Umbara arc?
  5. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I am sure that what was panderred about in S4 would be showing up somewhere in the FAR future. Cause Order 66 would mean the end of the show and I do not want that - the show is going great so far. BUT MOAR SEPARATISTS AND SEPARATIS LEADERRRRSSSS.... :p
  6. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I see no evidence the Republic has any media on the front lines. Really even so, even when we're talking about IRL reporting can be unreliable and politically slanted. People will be people. They'll get greedy and they'll feed other people bovine excrement. Many will simply believe whatever they hear. Many already seem to believe the Jedi are a corrupt organization conspiring a war to gain power, perhaps eventually going to lead their army of clones to concur. How do you convince people of that? Indoctrinate them with fake media and spread rumors and lie. That's easier when you've got a group of mysterious people out there no one really understands. Reminds me of the episode of "The Curse of Castle McDuck" in Ducktales where the farm people are all terrified to the druids.

    We only ever seen clones and Jedi out there. Palpatine The republic seems plenty corrupted. I'm fairly sure there is a secret clamp on the media in the republic and everything the public is getting is filtered or slanted to Palpatines liking, secretly ofcourse. On the Republic side the main people we see out there are Jedi and clones. I think media available would be somewhere between say WWII era and modern communication. Its easy to feet people bovine excriment.

    That was hinted as far back as the season 1 blu-ray commentary for the hidden enemy wasn't it? Then I believe there has been alot of talk about that since the Krell arc. Where its been said the show will explore the creation and how it works. Then what happens to clones who defy it. Pretty much setting up one of our or two clone heroes. Its possible that will be explore next season. I remember in the old facebook interview from the end of season 4. Dave dropped hints that the guy who wrote the Umbaran arc was penning something about clone commandos and new troopers were going to be introduced. Then there is a mythical Fives becoming major character arc out there somewhere. New troopers and Fives seem like good segues into order 66 stuff.
    Last edited by Seerow, Dec 26, 2012
  7. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    How would there be a secret clamp on the Republic media? By who? IRL, yeah there is politically slanted media and bias, but some bias is one way, some another. Palpatine doesn't really have the infrastructure to control the media without anyone knowing. Nazis could control the media because they ruled as autocrats and filled all positions of power. And for that reason I could see the CIS controlling the media, since everyone in a position of power is essentially in on this conspiracy to help Dooku tear down the Republic with Sidious as their contact in the Republic. Aside from Mas Amedda, there's nobody else that the films or TCW have established as knowing who Palpatine is or anyone that really seems to show that they would benefit in anyway from an anti-Jedi agenda.

    As for why everyone hates Jedi. That's the $1,000,000 question. We've gotten the "snapshots" in TCW to show us that the Jedi are mistrusted, but the big piece of the puzzle is "why?" Especially when you have people like the Onderonian King that think extremely highly of the Jedi. We have Palpatine defending the Jedi from accusations that the Jedi started the war for more power and there's the shot in the trailer that shows the Jedi Temple will be protested for some reason or another, but it's not really been answered as to why the Jedi are so mistrusted, whether it has anything to do with the media - which hasn't featured into the films or TCW at all - or if it's something as shallow as people mistrusting them because they have a power that is poorly understood (like how in the X-Men films, there are factions that hate the X-Men because they are potentially dangerous, not because they did anything evil). Or it could just be ignorance about what a Sith is and people hate the Jedi because of what Dooku has done and they are stereotyping the entire group unfairly.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Dec 26, 2012
  8. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I just figure the republic's media is secretly highly controlled and that citizens are only getting a slant with what is meant for them. IRL media is highly controlled (yeah I'll let my inner conspiracy theorist come out and play a little) and people either have no idea or bury their heads in the sand. If the senate is corrupt it stands to reason the media is as well. What happens to senators who go against the grain? What happens to reporters who go against the grain? I never meant to say anyone knows who Palpatine really is.

    I figure that there is something of an enormous Xanatos gambit running both sides of the clone wars and the republic itself. One way or the other large numbers of people are being manipulated into distrusting the Jedi even despite Palpatine publicly defending them. Lets back up. What could have happened that turned public opinion against the Jedi in the first place? I can't help but start thinking of "Pursuit of Peace" and Padme's speech of the poor woman not being able to read because she had no light. Is it because citizens are starving because of this war and the Jedi being positioned into the scapegoats for that? We know there was a vote for more clones. We know citizens think Jedi conspired the wars.

    Show Spoiler
    Then we see signs in front of the temple with big red 'X' over the clone helmets?


    TCW seems to like to follow up on its bad episodes considering what happened with "Dooku Captured" and Young Jedi picking up on that plot sting.
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  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Palpatine did the same thing, not through brute force so much as through popularity and convincing the masses that he should. (Which is what Hitler did in the 30s, but I digress.)

    According to this Wook link, Palpatine seized control of the Holonet early in the war, initially using it for military communications then returning it to news, but with a pro-Republic spin. According to this link, the Holonet was seized for the purpose of keeping the Separatists from using it. Whether you take the source material listed on Wook seriously or not, it does make sense that Palpatine would do this, given his propensity to manufacture crises and use them to grant himself more and more power. We're talking about a man who managed to bypass the equivalent of the American 22nd Amendment and stay in office past two terms, plus convince the Senate to pass multiple "emergency directives" concentrating more power into his office.

    Here is another aspect of growing anti-Jedi sentiment during the war.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Dec 26, 2012
  10. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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  11. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    A pro-Republic spin is different from an anti-Jedi one. During most wars I would feel inclined to think that patriotic sentiments would spike. And whether sincere/insincere, that tends to get reflected in the media.

    As for Palpatine's "Secret Police" that doesn't make sense to me. I don't dispute that the EU used that idea, but it's hard to accept since it goes precisely against what you'd expect to happen. When you look at something like America's military abroad, generally people that do not support it at all are still careful not to place blame on the military men and women following orders. Blame gets deflected upward to the politicians, particularly the president. Which is exactly what Palpatine would not want. When you have something like "Palpatine's Secret Police" that's about as useful to Palpatine IMO as if George Bush started circulating the phrase "Bush's Lap Dogs" in reference to the military. That wouldn't shift negative sentiment to the military, the phrase emphasizes the position of authority that Palpatine has over the Jedi. If you hate the Jedi for being the "face" of the Republic war effort, you should hate Palpatine just as much, though likely more so.

    As to why the Jedi would be singled out to being hated but NOT Palpatine (Palpatine has to come out looking like a hero who the people want in office indefinitely), that doesn't make sense. A Jedi conspiracy against the government would do it, but the groundwork would have to be laid to allow the senate to so readily accept the lie that the Jedi are rebelling. And I don't think fake news reports or simply the Jedi being military leaders is enough to do that. They would have to be involved in scandals or really damning situations, such as that of Krell.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Dec 26, 2012
  12. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    All Palps had to do was what he was doing: deny these "rumors and insinuations." He could speak in the Senate, denouncing "those who would say the Jedi are prolonging the war to gain power" - and plant the idea that this is exactly what the Jedi are doing. He manipulated Anakin the same way: "They don't trust you" - and Anakin thinks, "Gee, I just thought they focused on my age not my capabilities, but it makes sense it's because they don't trust me."

    "To those who denounce the Jedi as baby-stealers, there is no ounce of proof" - ooh, maybe they do steal babies but there's no way to prove it so we have to legally pretend they don't so we don't "slander them;" it's so easy to plant these seeds by getting publicity for denying these very things you want folks to wonder about.

    Dark seeds, indeed, that grow in the fertile ground of imagination, unvoiced for a long while and thus not easily countered or debunked. It's really, really easy to play on folks fears and suspicions.
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  13. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    @Valairy Scot

    I see what you're saying, but I would hope that there are at least some people out there saying such things, even if Palpatine is inflating the issue simply by addressing it. I mean if nobody ever accused the Jedi to be "baby-stealers" and Palpatine goes out that and defends Jedi from accusations that don't exist to start some crap, that his efforts would be transparent to the Jedi. And throughout most of the war he has to cooperate with the Jedi to get them where he wants them

    I think there's a balancing act to a degree. Because if popular opinion turned against the Jedi too much and the populace started demanding that the Jedi resign as military commanders, I don't see why they wouldn't. Mace says it himself that they're not soldiers.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    @TaradosGon : I'd say you are assuming that common sense would prevail as opposed to hysteria.
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  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Hysteria on the part of who? There are plenty of senators like Bail and Padme that don't particularly side with Palpatine. And the Jedi still seem to carry some weight with them. If Palpatine was blatantly feeding lies, there's the risk of making too many enemies that can challenge him politically.

    In the ROTS cutscenes people like Mon Mothma and Bail Organa aren't even particularly trusting of the Jedi and don't want to reach out to them as political allies with the Petition of 2000. I would think a rather big scandal or something of the sort would have happened to shake Bail's faith in the Jedi that much (and he's the one that turns around and ultimately rescues Obi-Wan and Yoda from Order 66). I can't imagine it's just him buying into baseless slander.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    There may be a scandal, but I'd be willing to bet good money that it will be Palpatine-manufactured. Palpatine is very good at doing things undercover--leading both sides of the war anyone?

    As far as Bail and Padme, Padme didn't really question Palpatine until ROTS. Bail questioned him earlier but he was in the minority.
  17. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    @TaradosGon: of course you've got a point, but there are suspicious folks both in the real world and GFFA - folks who want to believe in conspiracy theories, no matter how crackpot on the surface OR NOT, or take advantage of such suspicions to feed their own agenda.

    And as seems evident from my SW knowledge (movies, TCW, a lot but far from all EU), Jedi were rare enough in the GFFA to be both revered and feared, certainly misunderstood. Most likely some factions believed a simple wave or two of the hand, a mindtrick here and there, and the war SHOULD be over: the Jedi are "miracle workers" are they not - unless they're not trying. Maybe they're setting the stage for a coup d'etat? Maybe they're not such "supermen" as popular belief paints them?

    I could probably come up with tons of scenarios but shall restrain myself.
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  18. AkashKedavra_93 Emperor of the Seven Realms and the First Dragons

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    Young Jedi is up on SW.com again!
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  19. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Little Anakin didn't think you could kill a Jedi when he met Qui-gon.
  20. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

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    That's because he was fascinated with Jedi :p
  21. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Going through multiple sources there was always some mistrust of the Jedi in galaxy long before Palpatine arrived. I'd certainly agree that he fanned those fires to try and make the populace more apprehensive of the Jedi.

    Lets put it this way. 1000's of former Republic worlds joined the CIS and then the Jedi lead the armies that were trying to overthrow their leadership and not honoring their wishes. No matter the reason if one nation invades another I suspect a large percentage of the populace will not view the generals leading the invading army as people they can trust and admire.

    It was all part of Palpatine's scheme. Basically he turned half the galaxy against the Jedi just by the way he played the CIS.
  22. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

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    There should be some arc focusing on media and propaganda of the war. Po Nudo and his hypercommunications cartel against the Republic Holonet.
  23. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    I like that idea a lot... A LOT!

    Po Nudo needs to appear... they already made the aqualish models. They have the aliens from almost all of the CIS leaders.

    [IMG]
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  24. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    I'm not sure if an entire arc could focus on this and be exciting but it would be a good secondary or background plot. Ya know, much as I clamor for Jedi OCs might be cool to have a real regular Joe like a reporter around.
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Another idea adding to this one: focus on the pro-human sentiment propagated by Palpatine's administration during the war, in which species the same as those of the Separatist leaders, are targeted for anti-hiring practices or such. There was some mention in Karen Miller's novels of hiring signs around Coruscant along the lines of "Only humans need apply." It would further show, beyond the executive directives, how Palpatine is using the propaganda war machine to enact some very ugly practices.