*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Origins

"And while Palpatine isn?t, we must assume Anakin?s natural father in this film, he?s certainly a father-figure to him.? - Ian, Becoming Sidious Webdoc.

 

I admit, I used to be pretty sure that it was the Force that created Anakin, especially after seeing RotS the first time. There's nothing particularly in the movie that makes me think that's wrong, and I think people are reading a bit too much into Ian's performance - it doesn't hint as much as the dialogue does. But I have thought about it a lot, and I do think it's very ambiguous. It's just something that's never answered, and we're left to make what we can of it. My opinion is that it was probably the will of the Force, but I'm now completely open to the idea of the Sith doing it - it's pretty much 50/50 in my mind. I jumped the gun a bit in my total belief that the Force did it. However, I think factually the idea of Plagueis doing it doesn't quite fit with the timeline, and Palpatine admits that he doesn't have the power. My guess is still that the Force did it. Let's just hope George clears this up someday ...

 

You are right DarthyMarkyMark only a sith deals in absolutes. You should maybe check if you are not one yourself, seeing how blindly you follow quotes obviously tailored to mislead the weak minded. You can't really expect George Lucas to reveal that sort of things openly. You said it yourself this is open for interpretation then let people interpret. Some people need things to be clearly explained to them otherwise they will never get it. I give my praise to George for proving this point.

For those of you who still know how to use their brain here are a few more facts coroborating Palpatine's role into Anakin's existence:

fact: In the credits of both "The Phantom Menace" and "The Attack of the Clones" the names of Shmi and Palpatine are side by side:

Senator Palpatine IAN McDIARMID
Shmi Skywalker PERNILLA AUGUST

fact: In "The Attack of the Clones", when Palpatine and Anakin are heaving their "father and son meeting" in his office. The music we hear in the background is none other than Shmi's theme. Track 8 of "The Phantom Menace" OST "He is the Chosen One". That you hear in TPM whenever she is on screen.

EDIT: I could have misread this second fact it could also mean a foreshadowing of Shmi's demise being plotted by Palpatine to prepare Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

 

From the official history of Lucas's vision (SuperShadow):
...

Unnoticed to the Jedi, one Sith succeeded another on Coruscant, eventually leading up to Darth Frordon of Dresdane. On Dresdane, Frordon set up a duel between his apprentice Baltimort and Baltimort?s potential replacement, Plagueis. Baltimort and Imperius were each Baraosi, both from the planet Bothiwite, also known as Tindell 5, the fifth planet of the Tindell Star System. Since Plagueis had a collection of kyber crystals, but was less experienced than Baltimort, Plagueis and Baltimort teamed up against Frordon. Baltimort became Plagueis? master, until Imperius slew Baltimort by an ever-growing collection of kyber crystals and heightened skill. Plagueis slew Baltimort by means of a Force earthquake.

After this, Plagueis apprenticed a young boy from Naboo, Dantius Palpatine and dubbed him Darth Sidious. Plagueis had several kyber crystals and eventually gave Palpatine one of these kyber crystals. The kyber crystals were forged by the Rodar Wizards of Perdonis and scattered throughout the Galaxy, about 100,000 years before the events of The Phantom Menace. Unbeknownst to Plagueis, Palpatine had found a far more potent kyber crystal than anything Imperius had. Palpatine located it on the planet Moovis, which he purchased from Ushkar Madcra, a bounty hunter who sold it as junk. This potent kyber crystal made Palpatine too powerful for his master to control. On the planet Skaggis, Palpatine killed Plagueis in his sleep when Plagueis was 52 years old.

 

Strange how that official history doesn't mention Plagueis's unique ability. Could Palpatine have been making it up to lure Anakin to the Dark Side, with false hopes of saving Padme?

 

I believe that it is awesome that George Lucas left it SO open for speculation concerning the origin of Anakin with the dialogue in the Opera scene.

Did Palpatine create Anakin?

Did Plagueis create Anakin?

This will leave fans debating for years to come!

 

IT WAS THE WILL OF THE FORCE!!! the midichlorians in anakin or rather shimi's egg decided.."opp! its time to form a baby and it does!

 

From the official history of Lucas's vision (SuperShadow):


Oh boy!

 

Maybe Shmi is A sexual so can reproduce without a male hmmmm... . On a more serious note I cant really say on the matter about anakin being created by Plagius or Sidous if anything I really dotn think it was plagius I think thats a stupid thought right there, Plagius problem gave Sidous the 411 on how to creating a life out of metocholrians but not creat him. My best bet would have to be Sidous though. I mean what else could of happend anymore logic did Shmi go to Club Bananas to have some fun one night? ha o well. I dont think we will ever know I tell you what someone who is so dieing to find out email Lucas and ask him.

 

He began life as Anakin Skywalker, a young slave from Tatooine skilled in piloting and strong in the Force. Anakin's very origins are mysterious. His mother, Shmi, revealed that there was no biological father. Inexplicably, she became pregnant with the Force-prodigy and carried him to term. Some among the Jedi believed this to be part of an ancient prophecy of a Chosen One, willed into life by the midi-chlorians, who would bring balance to an increasingly darkening Force. There was another possibility, though. The child could have been the creation of sinister Sith manipulations, as the Dark Lords Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious conspired to bring about the perfect apprentice by coaxing life from lifelessness.

Star Wars - Databank.

I haven't ever had a definitve opinion on whether Anakin was created by the Sith or not. To be honest I thought the Sith promises were a lie by Palpatine. I didnt truely believe that Plagueis could create or save life (though I still believe the cheat deatwas a lie just for Anakin - but it may have been something he aspired to and another reason for wanting Anakin by his side. All Sith are greedy obviosuly and to cheat death is the ultimate greed so it seems pretty clear that they would want to achieve it).

However, lets say the Sith could create life. This is my theory why:

The balance of the force was being eroded by the dark forces. It would continue to do so and be a bigger erosion than ever before. The balance between light and dark would be so big that someone special was needed to bring it back into balance.

The force is impartial. It doesnt favour dark or light. IMO the balance is to have equal amounts of light and dark in the galaxy. One must realise that good and evil co-exist and neither can be destroyed for ever.

But I believe that it is the forces will to have a balance. Some Jedi may disagree in the PT and beyond as its hard to deal with the idea that the Dark Side will always be around. However, it is the case. But as I said the force is always looking for balance. But it cannot take away free will. It cannot just directly influence life - but it can, if listened to, pass on its will.

Jedi, like Qui Gon, who are in tune with the living force hear the force's will and it is for this reason that Qui Gon discovered Anakin.

Anyway, what has this got to do with the Sith you ask?

Well, as the force cannot directly influence people/aliens etc it had to use other methods to help restore balance - the balance between light and dark.

It needed to create a being whom would be both light and dark. Someone who could be in the centre of the galaxy and bring balance by bringing both light and dark together and breaking through both. If a child was born and was immediatly taken up by the Jedi the chances of that person being given the chance to understand the dark side as Anakin does is doubtful. He/she most probably wouldnt have attachments of any kind and wouldnt ever know of greed. These are things that Anakin needed to have so he could understand the Dark and light side of the force.

Therefore the child had to have dark tendancies. It had to be born away from the Jedi. For the Jedi would only offer the child one kind of life. But if the child was born of a pure, innocent, loving mother and be fathered by the Sith (as well as having attachments)it would have those tendancies from birth - the qualities it needed

Therefore, I think its possible that the force gave the Sith the abilities needed to create life. I believe that Plagueis was the Sith equivilant to Qui Gon. I think he was very much in tune with the Dark Side of the force. The will of the force could have spoken to him one day teaching him the skill required. It was then Plageuis' CHOICE whether to create life or not. With the help of Palpatine's power the Sith went about creating a perfect Sith - one created through the manipulation of midichlorians - the perfect being - one who would be most powerful.

Now, we obviously don't know the background of Shmi. But what we do know is that she

 

^^^^

A thought? Anyone?

 

For some reason I just don't think the 'Sith-can-create-life' issue is all a lie. I just don't think GL would bring up the whole Darth Plageuis the Wise story (one of the best, new stories to evolve from Star Wars in a long time) just to say later that it was all just made up to throw Anakin off course.

I always felt like the Jedi were meant to find Anakin. Consider this... Palpatine, like you said, needs an adult apprentice until Anakin reaches maturity; enters Darth Maul. Also, Palpatine is a powerful politician who is climbing the social/power ladder on Naboo and has absolutely no time or facilities to raise and train Anakin. He knows also that by placing Anakin within his environment on Tatooine (slavery, a loving mother) he can use these to his advantage later to help turn Anakin. So he places him in a situation where the Jedi WILL find him. He knows they will take him into the temple and train him, he has the mega midi-chlorian count going on so he'll be incredibly strong in the force and, here's the real kicker, Anakin will maybe learn to become patient and wise at the same time.

Remember, Palpatine is not like all the other Sith before him; he uses Jedi traits to get exactly where he wants to be (yes, I said Jedi traits)... in power and rid of the Jedi Order. Palpatine is patient, calculating and ferociously wise along with an alarming charisma that allows him to seduce not only Anakin but also the entire Galactic Senate. I believe he wants his child prodigy to have the same traits as he does and the best way for him to accomplish this is to have Anakin grow up within the Order. This also gives Palpatine an insider within the Jedi, making it easier for him to corrupt from within later (as we see happen in RotS).

So, I do believe Palpatine choreographed Anakin's life from the very beginning. Now whether it was Palpatine/Sidious that manipulated the midi's or Plageuis I'm still not sure. It could be that Plageuis initiated the "creation" and then shortly afterward Sidious killed him (in his sleep) because of the whole 'rule of one' thing and then took over from there. I'm still 'out' on that one.

I have read on the OS that GL is being very "guarded" about the whole Plageuis/Sidious story and the "creation" of life... I'm hoping this means we'll get more info in the future maybe in the form of a novel or, preferably a movie (o.k., I know, I'm dreaming).

 

I dont believe that if Palpatine was behind all this that he would think or know the Jedi would discover Anakin.

If this backstory is tru in any way I think the will of the force plays the biggest role.

I think it communicated with the Sith so they knew what they could do. And i believe it communicated with Qui Gon so he would discover the child.

When Anakin turned up on Palpatines door step he wasnt shocked but slightly surprised. But as ever he believed it to be the work of the dark side - he took advanatge of the sitaution and turned Anakin from within the Jedi order - it created the perfect situation for him. He was able to influence the jedi further and make his job of taking them out that little bit easier.

 

If Palpatine HAD created Anakin.........he would have came to Tatooine himself and arranged for Shmi's death and Anakin's freedom at an earlier age. He would have trained him as he had with Darth Maul and even possibly still recruited Count Dooku and Grievous to lead the Seperatist.

The Jedi would have not seen Anakin until ROTS when he burst from the shadows to duel a confused Master Windu and arrest party.

 

Ah, but it's sweeter to have the ultimate 'Trojan Horse' get inside the Jedi Order and then betray them from within.

 

so true Master Sinister

 

Well it looks like a role reversal here and I am going to be siding more with Darth_Sinister and not the Commander. Sorry Commander.

I, for one, do not believe the force has a will of it's own.

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field
created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds
the galaxy together.

How does an energy force have a will?? I also believe if Anakins birth was pure accident, or coincendent that he wouldn't be the only one. Palpatine states he does not yet have the power to save life, however he never states he didn't learn how to create it.

Palpatine insinuating that he knows how to create life just seemed to tie up a lot of loose knots. His great interest in Anakin when he first saw him, the miraculos birth, I never was comfortable with that whole idea - seemed more fantasy than sci-fi (which ofcourse is a very arguably thin line).

Plus it's much more ironic to think of the Emperor as Luke and Leia's Pappy.

 

I didn't say for certain that Palpatine created Anakin. I said that if that was the case, what better way to destroy the Jedi by having one of their own betray them in the worst possible way. I dunno for sure who or what created Anakin, though I lean towards the Force creating him and Plaugeis creating Sidious.

As to how the Force could have a will, it is an energy field, but it also has the ability to shape events that it finds to be desireable. It flows and ebbs like the tide. It also contains the spirits of the deceased who have become one with the Force, upon death. And as the novelization revealed, Yoda spoke to the Force and it responded in the voice of Qui-gon Jinn. When Lucas first started Star Wars, he had the Force known as "The Force of all others." The spirits of the deceased, if you will.

Anyway, it's one of those great cosmic mysteries. Like does God exist. The Force is the divine power that is unseen, yet there. It wants things done and it works in mysterious ways.

 

Sinister, I know I'm kinda on my own here with my force theory heresy. It just that you and I are normally polar opposite on these boards and I agree with the Commander almost point for point.

I believe when the "will of the force" is mentioned it is more metaphorical. To suggest that the Force itself has a will would be to give it a Devine attribute. You could just call it 'god' then. I do, however think you are on to something in that I believe hearing the force as we've seen it is actually communicating with those who have passed beyond and are one with the living force or whatever. I would also say that opening oneself up to the force to be controlled, would be more akin to a pre-reflexsive action. I guess you could still argue either way and it may just me a matter of symantics? So who knows.

 

"The Midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as ?the chosen one? who will balance the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don?t know yet whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don?t know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."

-- George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

I think that this passage in addition to others.....clearly demonstrates that the Force is an active entity with a definite agenda. Lucas himself divides the Force into the Living Force and the Cosmic Force.

The Living Force is what the Jedi and Sith tap into to enhance their powers and guide their movements......while the Cosmic Force deals more so with Destiny, the future, and the past.

I agree with Master Sinister that it would be quite the clever move for the Sith to send a "trojan horse" into the Jedi fold to implode them from within. However, based on Anakin's own immaturity and lack of trust from the Council he's not the best candidate for this role and only excells whilst Mace Windu is in deep concentration battling a more powerful Sidious.
Really Sidious achieves most of his goals regarding the Jedi w/o Anakin's aid......making it seem more logical for Sidious to have aided Dooku on the Invisible Hand in disposing of his only known threat. I'm sure Sidious thought Anakin could beat Obi Wan Kenobi without incident, but IMO he underestimated how emotional Anakin had become as of late regarding his future. If Sidious had chosen Dooku over Anakin.....then both Master and Apprentice would have skated out of ROTS in perfect condition if you believe that Sidious toyed with Mace. If you believe that Mace beat Sidious legitimately.......then Anakin was the only choice for apprentice unless you believe that Sidious and Dooku together could have beaten Mace and the arrest team.......which I do considering that Sidious dam near does that feat himself.

In closing.....if Sidious had created Anakin himself then IMO he would have not twisted him into such a powerful instrument up for grabs for both sides. To me his plan would have worked even better had he trained Anakin himself in secrecy and unleashed a more potent "Chosen One" upon the Jedi in their darkest hour. And before you address the kidnapping scenario consider that it would simply have been Obi Wan Kenobi and somebody else sent.

Since Dooku can knock Obi Wan out in 15 seconds or less anyway.....that leaves loads of time for Dooku and Sidious to tag team the other member and set up a scene where Obi Wan wakes up and Dooku "appears" slain next to a dead Jedi and Palpatine is screaming for help.

 

We need to look at the saga as a whole and not in terms of OT first then PT.

Lucas is creating ambiguity in ROTS regarding Anakin's true origin and the validity of the prophecy to cause viewers to question whether Anakin is the Chosen One or if the Jedi were wrong all along.

At the end of the saga, the viewer comes to find out that the prophecy is correct, Anakin is the Chosen One, and was created by the midichlorians, not the Sith, to bring balance to the Force.

So don't look at ROTS as the film that trumps ROTJ. Everything ROTS has you believe about Anakin - that he was a Sith creation and not the Chosen One, turns out to be false when ROTJ shows him fulfill the prophesized role of Chosen One.

Those experiencing the films I-VI will be left in doubt about Anakin/Vader, maybe even believing the Jedi were wrong and that Luke was the "new" Chosen One. They will be surprised when Vader makes his final turn back to the good side, fulfilling the prophecy.

It's all about the development of the story as a whole and not about undoing the OT.

 

*bows*

Well Said Master EwokThatCried.....I am merely logicly exploring options here.....alternate courses that the Saga could have taken and still ended up roughly the same.

 

Yeah, I believe the same thing as Ewok. I've said that before in other threads. It's about telling the story. That's why we have this thing. It's to cast doubt in the minds of those watching the story in order, but they'll realize the truth at the end.

 

Except that Vader doesn't "turn back" by himself. So it could still be Luke who is the Chosen One. Without him, Vader would never have repented his evil ways.

 

*bangs gong* "We have a winner!!!!!!"