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*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by That_Wascally_Droid, Dec 21, 2002.

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  1. Le_Sammler

    Le_Sammler Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Like a lot of other people, I can tend to see that Anakin DID turn to the Dark Side a little to quickly for my tastes, but then again, it does go to show that he will do practically anything for the ones he loves.
     
  2. Darth-Odom

    Darth-Odom Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2005
    hi what if padme wasn't going to died do you think that anakin would still go to the dark side
     
  3. murasakisan

    murasakisan Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    I thought it was interesting that the Emperor urged Anakin to go and kill a bunch of people to help strengthen his darkside powers. This relates to the KoTOR games where characters get more darkside points, and consequently grow stronger in darkside powers as a result. It was a nice crossover moment.
     
  4. Force-Keeper

    Force-Keeper Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Darth-Odom posted on 12/12/03 11:31am
    hi what if padme wasn't going to died do you think that anakin would still go to the dark side
    [hr][/blockquote]
    I really doubt it. Padmè's death was a huge part in his turn and without the visions of her death Anakin wouldn't have turned his back on the Jedi and sided with Palpatine in order to save her.
     
  5. DarthSanantta

    DarthSanantta Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 21, 2005
    Anakin alleges to the Dark Side because he wants to save his woman. Wouldn't you do the same thing for the love of your life?

    He doesn't want to do it; he still believes in Jedi's teachings ("What have I done?" after Mace's death); he knows this is not the right path, he still does it for his wife, but deep inside him there's an alarm saying: "This is not good, this is not good!", but he does it anyway. Why? You must kill all the Jedi in order to save your wife!, you must be a powerfull Sith in order to save your wife!, you must be the greatest mother ****er in the Galaxy in order to save your wife!, so he falls. Then, at the end, he realizes that everything was in vain; does he have a second chance? NO. After all, almost all the Jedi are extinct, the Republic doesn't exist any longer, he has betrayed everything he has believed in... Then Vader is born. A Vader that, we know, is not happy with his new condition; a Vader that eventually kills his Master and is redeemed by his own son.

    There was always good in him...
     
  6. vaderfandan

    vaderfandan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    if you strike to kill a Sith Lord, not in self-defense, and filled with anger and hatred, that you thereby enslave your soul to the Master Sith, becoming his apprentice, and turning to the dark side forever. This would also explain why Obi Wan does not kill Anakin when he is unarmed and defenseless at the end of their duel in ROTS.

    If Anakin had found out that Palpatine was essentially behind the assassination attempts on Padme?s life, and behind the death of Qui-Gon Jin ? a father figure to Anakin, the one who freed him from slavery and the only Jedi to truly believe in him, knowing Anakin?s temper and rashness, I?m sure this would be enough for him to strike to kill Palpatine.


    WOW! That is the kind of creative thinking that I wish GL would've used!

    Of course it's a mute point now, but if GL would've thought of that before he made ROTS,
    that would've been a suprising revalation, that would've shed new light on the OT,
    without compromising the story at all. That's a great concept. It also would've
    explained why Vader blocked Luke's saber strike at the Emperor in ROTJ.

    VFD
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin knew all that.

    MACE: "What is it, Skywalker? We are in a hurry. We have just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We are on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency powers back to the Senate."

    ANAKIN: "He won't give up his power. I've just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord."

    MACE: "A Sith Lord?"

    ANAKIN: "Yes. The one we have been looking for."


    He knew it was Palpatine who is Sidious, but he still sides with him because he has the power to save Padme. Or at least, knows that it can be done. That's good enough for him.

    Remember, Anakin's making emotionally based decisions. Not rational, logical ones. If he did, he would've fought Palpatine to the death in his office.
     
  8. Jedi_Sith_Balance

    Jedi_Sith_Balance Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Yes, ROTS shows how totally far off I was in how I thought Anakin had been turned to the dark side. The whole "strike to kill Sith while defenseless and unarmed enslaves you to his will" theory was before I saw ROTS. Like many others I'm sure, I had my own theory of how that would play out before seeing ROTS, so I was wondering how others thought this would occur, and if the official turn to the dark side shown in the movie fulfilled them.
     
  9. poker

    poker Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Problem with the Skywalker family : Attachements.

    Vader almost turned Luke in ROTJ, when he spoke about Leia. Luke losted it. The Emperor was using Luke's friends to turn him. He almost succeeded.

    Anakin has been influenced for 15 years, lost his mother, and more... His attachement for Padme and his lust for power has been his downfall.

    Luke came really close to take the same pattern, but his compassion for his father was stronger.
     
  10. naturalmystic

    naturalmystic Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Why doesn't Anakin see/realize that Sid/Palp is behind the whole war?

    At first, I thought Anakin understands this but chooses to serve Palp to save his wife but that he is fully aware that Palp is the antagonist behind everything. But when Anakin says that he believes "the Jedi's next move will be against the Senate," that he's going to "Mustafar to end this War," and again later that he has "brought Peace/Security to his Empire," and that Palpy is OK, the "Jedi are evil," all these comments exonerate Palpy as the principle source of the conflict. Why doesn't he understand that Dooku is in league with Palp?
    If on the other hand he understands that Palpy is bad but he's making a conscious decision, that explains why he does not intervene and later help Mace? After all, Anakin must have seen the three dead Jedi as he arrived to the Mace/Sid confrontation.

    I would have prefered or easier accepted that he knew Palpy was the architech behind the scenes but made a deal with the devil for his wife's life. Of course there is more: personal issues of rejection/trust with the Jedi, Jedi restraint on Force development (e.g., Master's ranking etc.); the seductiveness of the Darkside (Yoda: death is natural, Palp: Darkside offers a lot many see as unatural), Darkside = passion based (Anakin) vs Lightside = selflessness (Obiwan), and Anakin's natural support/views for an autocratic rule (see EP2 Pademe & Anakin /EP3 Anakin & Obiwan after Anakin misses the Jedi briefing).

    There just seems to be a conflict with this premise which IMO undermines Anakins slide to the Darkside as credible or convincing. Maybe the novels offers more about his slide. If so, will someone please enlighten? I'm having a hard time with this. Is this writing and script development on this critical point lacking?
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Matthew Stover takes extra time to have Palpatine seduce Anakin, before revealing his identity to him, in the book. Lucas touches on how the turn works.

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful?it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who?s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it?s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, ?I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won?t do it, so I?m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.? You know, it?s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you?re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that?s not a good thing. That?s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

    --George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

    "I have what I call two sharp "right turns" in the movie and they are very hard to deal with. For the audience, it's a real jerk, because you're going along and then somebody yanks you in a different direction. Anakin turning to the dark side and killing Mace is a very hard right, because we're dealing with things that aren't so obvious. The audience knows Anakin is going to turn to the dark side, but the things that he's struggling with are so subtle that it may be hard for people to understand why his obsession to hold onto Padme is so strong."

    "Showing how much Anakin and Padme care for each other is one of my weak points. Expressing that is hard to do. It's really hard in the end to express the idea, I'm so in love with you that I would do anything to save you; I'd give up everything -friends, my whole life- for you, and make that real-make that stick-and say it in two minutes. When I created it I knew I wanted two hard right turns-it's designed to be that way-and I knew I was taking a real chance that it wasn't going to work. But you have to see if you can make it work. If it doesn't work, well then I'm going to get skewered for it. But if I can make it work, it'll be neat. It'll be good"

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

    The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

    --The Making Of ROTS, page 204.

    "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS.

    "You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other, When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act."

    "Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about
     
  12. Masterskippy

    Masterskippy Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    Well, to me, Anakin had a hard life. He reminds me of a good kid from a bad neighborhood. Kid was obviously gifted in something, and managed to survive. Of course we don't see it on-screen, but he probably was beaten by whatever thugs Watto had.

    He really loves people, and wants to do right in what he does.

    And unfortunately, that is his downfall, BUT it ends up being his redemption.

    He also has dreams. Freedom for himself and his mother. Becoming a hero. Meeting the girl of his dreams.

    He is a very impressionable kid. He looked up to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, because they were Jedi.

    When in the time of AoTC, he sought consul of Palpatine. Afterall, he did help save the guy's planet, so it gave him another venue to express himself. As far as his lust of power, I think that was also a childhood dream. I mean, as kids, we always say "I want to be the best <insert profession/dream here>". He wanted to be a Jedi, and be the best Jedi ever.

    Palpatine sensed the potential in Anakin. Whether Palpatine manipulated events is a different topic, but he obviously took opportunity in Anakin's situation.

    Anakin loved Padme so much that he would even leave the Order for her. He already commited an infraction of the Code by marrying her.

    Attachments. It boils down to that IMHO.

    His mother's loss was the real beginning of his fall. He was willing to turn and entire hovership full of Jedi to save Padme on Geonosis, and forgetting the duty that he swore (and even dreampt of since a child) to follow and protect.

    His dreams of Padme dying was really was the crucible. He'd already left the Jedi when he married her, when he knew that attachments were forbidden. It's why potential Jedi were taken at birth from their biological parents, and why the 'too old for the training' mantra was enforced by the Order.

    And Palpatine took advantage of Anakin's love.

    On the contrary, Luke, despite his fear of losing Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru, Obi-Wan, and the possible loss of his friends, he ended up really became willing to sacrifice himself for all of them, and in the end, managed to bring his father back, and defeat evil. That's the story Mr. Lucas wanted to tell.

    It's my take on this.
     
  13. Naccha

    Naccha Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 1999
    that if you strike to kill a Sith Lord, not in self-defense, and filled with anger and hatred, that you thereby enslave your soul to the Master Sith, becoming his apprentice, and turning to the dark side forever.

    Interesting....however Anakin becomes a Sith Lord and Luke does try to kill him in anger and hatred (in ROTJ) when they first begin to fight, Luke is on the offense, yet Luke escapes being turned to the dark side.
     
  14. Jedi_Sith_Balance

    Jedi_Sith_Balance Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Interesting....however Anakin becomes a Sith Lord and Luke does try to kill him in anger and hatred (in ROTJ) when they first begin to fight, Luke is on the offense, yet Luke escapes being turned to the dark side.

    Well I don't see Vader in that scene as being *defenseless* until Luke cuts off his arm, at which point he backs off and tells the Emperor he has failed. If Luke had then killed Vader when he was lying on the floor, arm cut off, no lightsaber, that would be a different story.
    When Luke initially strikes at him, Vader defends himself and engages in the duel.

    I saw the similarity with the scene in ANH when Obi-Wan stops fighting & defending himself from Vader, and becomes a force ghost/gains immortality. Obi-Wan tells Vader (paraphrasing here):if you kill me, you will only make me stronger. Vader doesn't make him stronger until he strikes at Obi-Wan when he is not fighting back.

    (Disclosure for those who haven't read my previous posts: I have now seen ROTS, and I was way off track, but I still like the idea 8-})
     
  15. psexy116

    psexy116 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Anakin's fall to the darkside wasn't complete until Obiwan let him burn.

    Up until this point, Obiwan and Padme might have been able to save him if they had worked together. I honestly believe that the tears Anakin shed before Padme's arrival showed that Anakin was still close to the surface of the new Vader persona, and once Obiwan dismembered him, I felt that Obiwan could have saved him. It seemed that the unexpected defeat pushed Vader into a frenzy that Anakin (still inside) could have used to regain control - if he had had positive reinforcement such as what Luke gave him in ROTJ. Specifically I mean something like Obiwan saying "I'm not going to leave you. I have to save you" or "I feel the goodness in you." Anything to let Anakin know he still was loved and could be redeemed.

    But when Obiwan let him burn while he screamed at Anakin about how he had failed everyone, it was over. The new Vader learning that Padme was dead just sealed it. When Anakin burned, it was the reverse symbolism of Vader burning on Endor.
     
  16. abdab

    abdab Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2005
    quick little question/poll on Vader...
    my personal opinion is that he is the Reluctant Sith. I mean, he signed on w/the Sith for Padme's sake only...but then when he learns of her death, his reason for turning is gone.
    I mean, look at his statement on Mustafar, where he said he was powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor...he didn't care about the Sith, their legacy or their future. he cared about Padme. From what we can gather, he hadn't really learned about the Sith in any particular deep details, just that they were the equal but opposite of the Jedi and that they used the Dark Side.
    so my opinion is this...when he was laying waste to everyone on Mustafar and in the Jedi Temple he wasn't really a Sith beyond the fact that Sidious gave him a new name. He was just tapping into the Dark Side for his attacks.
    so anyway...I think that after Padme's death, Anakin only kept on w/Sidious b/c he had nothing better to do. I mean, he just sold out and killed tons of the Jedi and turned his back on his friends and the government and peoples he used to protect...he didn't have anywhere to go or anyone else to turn to.
    I dunno. to me, he didn't sign on w/the Sith b/c of their political ideals or b/c he cared about them and their goals.
    your thoughts?
    -abdab
     
  17. Darth_Gorman

    Darth_Gorman Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2005
    I agree with this.

    Also, Anakin's turn reminded me of the Spiderman cartoon show opening theme clip. He is caught in a Tug-of-War between the Dark Side (Venom from Spidey) and Light Side (Spiderman). When the Spidey theme ends Peter Parker gets thrown into Venom's mouth, just like Anakin with the Dark Side.

    just something silly and irrelevant it reminded me of.
     
  18. DVeditor

    DVeditor Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Upping for current discussion and repeated links.
     
  19. lord_dalton

    lord_dalton Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2005
    i strongly beleave that Anakin was always a sith. Anakin could never really keep him emotions in check which caused him alot of problems. His greed to try and to change things to the way he wanted, Anakin also wanted to be treated beter then other jedi because he was more powerful. He did things that jedi don't do, talk back to Obi wan and questioning his manster in all things. He always broke the rules and with Sidious in his hear he became more sure of himself and that his mistakes was cause he was held back cause he had to do things the way others wanted him to do it. Anakin by episode 3 was a sith in training and he just needed a little push
     
  20. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Anakin was just a maverick Jedi, kinda like Qui Gon. He was never a sith until he chopped off Mace's arm and sided with Palps.
     
  21. Headphonekenobi

    Headphonekenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    This is a post I moved from a locked thread...
    I was debating the topic of Anakin's turn with someone in a non SW forum and had a question.

    I'm of the opinion that Anakin's turn is a progression that as GL said has 2 sharp right turns. The first of those I link together as the assisted murder of Mace and the killing of the remaining Jedi and younglings. The second I consider to be the nail in the coffin which is a combination of Padme turning away from him, defeat and dismemberment by Obiwan and finally learning of Padmes death.

    The tear shed on Mustafar and various GL quotes I have read don't really confirm or deny this so here's my question.

    Was Anakin's turn a single moment in the movie which most consider to be when he is named Darth Vader after the death of Mace or was it a progression that started mostly with that scene but was not complete until his hate was all he had left? Are there any other DL quotes elaborating on and defining his turn?

    BTW I know that there are a number of events that contributed to his descent but just discussing the turn with respect to ROTS.
     
  22. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Anakin isn't automatically lost to the Dark Side when he pledges allegiance to the Sith; this is a mechanical declaration and merely another link in the chain that will envelop and strangle the "good man" of Anakin. Anybody who thinks differently is fooling themselves, in my opinion. It's easy to get wrapped up in external details and fail to grasp the more substansive whole. What do I mean by this? Here's an example: When I first watched Attack of the Clones, I wondered why Anakin was not "aligned" with the Dark Side the moment he gave into his anger and murdered the Tuskens. After all, I told myself, isn't this exactly what the Emperor implied would happen to Luke if he used his hate and killed Vader? Well, yes, it was: but I since realised it was merely another deception. One cannot and does not fall to the Dark Side at the flick of a switch; it takes time for someone to fall. This is a much more accurate reflection of the way human beings think and behave. Moreover, morality is a human construct: it is shaped jointly by the ways in which we perceive ourselves and the ways in which others perceive us. Ergo, Anakin is "on" the Dark Side at the close of Episode III every bit as much because HE believes he is as because the Emperor, Yoda and Obi Wan do. Perception is everything.

    It stands to a reason that in a film built around perception, Anakin should have these alternating currents of perception and moments of clarity throughout the narrative - which, of course, he does. Take his relationship with Palpatine. He perceives him as his friend and his pathway to greater power until he finally realises he's the Sith Lord. But this is not necessarily a moment of absolute clarity for Anakin. Not only is Anakin clearly confused about what to do, but he seems to be lying to himself (possibly the single greatest sin in Star Wars). How so? If he's finally verbalised the notion that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, then he should finally be confronting an array of awful truths: chief amongst them that Palpatine tried to have his wife killed! Anakin is so attached to Padme and so obsessed with gaining more power that a potent cocktail is formed. Either flaw on its own wouldn't be enough to sway Anakin and save Palpatine's bacon, but put the two together and something happens: Anakin carries on lying to himself and allows himself to believe that his former friend - former friend - might STILL have something to offer. It's a chance too good for Anakin, from his clouded perspective, to pass up...

    Yet when Palpatine, now in the full guise of Sidious, executes Mace, it's a turning point for Anakin on multiple levels. Or rather, it should be. He's just seen a supposed tyrant DO something tyrannical: Palpatine exposed his own deception by using the lightning a second time and did it with a force and intensity that left him in a paroxysm of ecstasy. It's an unavoidable conclusion: Palpatine visibly and audibly enjoyed killing Mace and was delirious with the prospect of gaining "unlimited power". Anakin wasn't checking his watch and listening to Metallica at full blast on his iPod; he saw and heard the entire thing. He KNEW Palpatine was a completely evil bastard at that moment. Here was his chance to repent - even if it meant, as Luke knew it did when he cast aside his lightsabre, imminent death. But he didn't. Again, what could and should have been a moment of absolute clarity was tainted once more by self-deception. But it's self-aware self-deception: a hard concept to grasp, let alone communicate. That is why, I feel, the pledge scene has taken a lot of critici
     
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  23. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2005
    great post, cryogenic. wow.

    spot on with your observations.

    i have said elsewhere that his turn ois both gradual and sudden. the declaration is something we have been wanting to hear for a long time, yet he isn't completely sold on it. but having everyone (including the audience) so firmly believe in it, somehow also makes it happen.

    anyway, your description was awesome.
     
  24. Headphonekenobi

    Headphonekenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Thanks cryogenic, good stuff!
    I agree and think that it is just the vision of a surface level Star Wars fan that likes the OT and hates the PT etc. The movies are much deeper than many non fans or surface level fans are able to see IMO.
     
  25. darthRebel

    darthRebel Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 25, 2004
    I have been away a long time and the turn is still one of the major topics:)THe new movies cured me of star wars geekdom.The turn was very weak and still is.If anakin was consumed by hate and no longer the man he once was and if you look at the slaughter you obviously see that the good side of him is completely dead,and his soul is lost ,then he should have focused his blind rage and anger at sidious primarly ,because he is the main instigator for all his problems (and he even admits it and betrays him in his face) now this means or anakin has the brains of a donkey,or he is completely evil and psychotic and lost his brains because of the darkside.people who kill babies are psycho or very troubeled souls.people who kill babies for a man who has just betrayed and laughed with you in your face are retards.But the turn is definitly not the only problem of the PT.The force is not with the PT IMO.

    PLus a man that is consumed by anger hate and dead can no longer think rationaly or consciously,for he is in a spiral of hate and dead and the darkside clouds his vision.The slaughter can be regarded as an act of giving yourself fully to the darkside,its obviously irrational behaviour from the point of anakin if you consider that luke still feels the goodside in him later on,he pushed his goodside away in a little corner.
    Now the problem also is that in the scene in the jedi council anakin is thinking rationaly and consciously about his 2 options: saving padme -darkside goodside-maybe lose her.He takes a conscious decision.Now from this point noway the good and intelligent person that anakin was in the first movie would follow a man that has betrayed him and asked him to go and murder some younglings.The love inside him is strong ,cause he wants to die for it,like dracula.Dracula is killing on the battlefield,he comes back and finds his wife dead.Now he turns against the church he fought to protect and the church that should have not forsaken him in return.BY betraying anakin sidious in a way does the same thing,and thus anakin should release all his unconscious anger at that time and make fried crispies of sidious.
     
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