*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.

On the contrary, I do not think the turn scene was weak, at least not any weaker than it was intended to be. By that, I mean that Anakin was desperate, confused, afraid, and utterly weak, and it shows brilliantly. Since buying the DVD, we can go back and see the emotion on Anakin's face as he pledges himself to the ways of the Sith. He is horrified by what he has done to Mace, but is desperately trying to convince himself that Palpatine is right only because he is so blind by his fear of losing Padme. Even as he pledges himself, he is horrified by Palpatine's face and voice, and knows he is evil, but nothing can outweigh his mission to save Padme, and in his blindness, he convinces himself that if he will just obey Palpatine and accept him as his master, he will be able to have the secret knowledge of saving lives through the force. He is deeply regretful over what he is doing, and we can SEE it. Later at the temple he has convinced himself to the point that he will obey Palpatine without question, thus his killing the Jedi. He descends further as the film progresses, slaughtering and arguing, until he will convince himself that Obi-Wan and Padme are in love, and her loss of trust in him is due to a lie that Obi-Wan told her. He never admitted he killed younglings, because he regretted it and wanted Padme to think that he wouldn't be capable of that kind of sickness. The arrival with Obi-Wan further enraged him and drove his jealousy until he could finally convince himself that the Jedi were evil. All of this was still because he didn't want Padme to die in childbirth. He let her go because he didn't want to kill her, and he offered Obi-Wan a chance to leave, because he still loved him deep down.

Vader turns out to be a much weaker person that we thought years ago, and it is due to a lifetime of convincing himself that the Sith are right is he able to do the things he does in the OT. So, the pledge scene is supposed to highlight the indecision of Anakin, the weakness, not to show how bravely he embraces the evil ways of the Sith.

By the way, after watching the DVD, Vader's "NOOO!" sounds much more raw and real than I thought in the theater. It actually sounds great now, IMO.

 

Why does Anakin still follow palpatine to the dark side when he was lied to off the bat? Palpatine admitted he was lying pretty much right after Anakin was dubbed Darth Vader. He said something to the effect of (and yes, i'm not directly quoting)"oh...by the way. I don't actually know the technique to keep people from dying even though I said I did. But I'm sort of confident we could discover it together." Anakin should have sliced him up right there!!!!!!!!!!! And of course he lied about who he was for so long and he tricked Anakin into aiding him in killing Master Windu.....

 

He's already thrown his chips in with Sidious at that point.

 

I know that there's been much controversy over the fact that Anakin says, "What have I done?" after the death of Mace Windu, and almost half a minute later turns to the Dark Side, and says to Palpatine, "I pledge myself...to your teachings."
Allow me to clarify: "I pledge myself...to your teachings."
Note that Anakin does not say, "I pledge myself to you."

Anakin's turn to the Dark Side is incredibly misunderstood, in my opinion. When he turns, it's not out of loyalty to the Chancellor or love for the Sith. He's doing it as a means to an end, the end of course being to save Padme. Having just aided Palpatine in the killing of Mace Windu, and by extension ending his own life as a Jedi (in his own mind), he thinks that Palpatine is his only hope for saving Padme's life. Palpatine has simply become Anakin's means of gaining that power.
In order to live with his decision, and all of the horrible murders and atrocities he commits, he tells himself that he's doing it for Padme. Or at least, that's how it starts out. He also justifies his actions by proclaiming his loyalty to the Republic, to the Senate, and to the Chancellor. (As somebody famous once said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.")
In the end, however, his desire for power becomes the end in itself, and Padme ends up brutally swept aside. By the time he confronts her on Mustafar, he's declaring his desire to overthrow Palpatine. And when confronted by Obi-Wan, he declares, "I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" Not to the Republic, but to his new Empire.
This is how Darth Vader "betrays and murders" (and "consumes") Anakin Skywalker: By transforming the selfless nine-year-old boy who wanted nothing more than to free slaves and help others into a selfish, murderous tyrant. And this is the nature of the Dark Side, because as Matthew Stover puts it in his novelization, "In the end, your Self is all you have."
In the end, to pledge yourself to the Dark Side is to elevate the Self at the expense of everything else.

 

You're absolutely right Pazuzu. I don't think Anakin felt any particular love or loyalty toward Sidious at this point. He was legitimately pissed off when he realized Palpatine was a Sith, going so far as to say he'd certainly like to kill him. Pledging himself to the Sith was indeed more of a means to an end. Of course, although he had a noble cause, he chose the complete wrong way to deal with it, thus turning him into the very thing he hated. That's the grand irony of his character.

 

Thanks, RebelScum77!
I actually posted this before reading Cryogenic's post on the previous page, and I think he does an even better job of articulating many of the points that I tried to get across.
I guess it's true: Great minds do think alike!

 

I think he started to fall as soon as he messed up by getting married. Which later led him to the dark side, it was all her falt.

 

It was both their faults. It was Anakin's fault for letting himself be too emotionally attached to Padme. And it was Padme for admitting her feelings, then continuing to act on them, when she knew it would destroy them.

 

So, it was a mistake for Luke and Leia to exist? I find it hard to believe that 2 of the OT characters were an accident.

If Anakin and Padme hadn't hooked up, then there wouldn't be any kids thus there wouldn't be any pressure for Anakin to hide anything from the Jedi but then, he'll still fall to the Dark Side anyway and there won't be a son around to snap him out of his Dark Side trance.

 

So, it was a mistake for Luke and Leia to exist? I find it hard to believe that 2 of the OT characters were an accident.

If Anakin and Padme hadn't hooked up, then there wouldn't be any kids thus there wouldn't be any pressure for Anakin to hide anything from the Jedi but then, he'll still fall to the Dark Side anyway and there won't be a son around to snap him out of his Dark Side trance.

How do you know he still would have fallen? He fell because of his attachment to Padme and wanting to keep her around forever, so he sold his soul to the devil so to speak.

If Anakin would have never married Padme, stayed on the Jedi path and defeated Sidious as he was supposed to, there would be NO reason for L&L.

 

No, not at all. The point is that it was not the best decision for Anakin and Padme to marry in secret....it wasn't necessarily the worst decision either, but if Anakin really wanted to marry, he should have either asked permission from the Jedi (EU says Ki-Adi-Mundi obtained it), or else left the Order altogether. They (arguably) made a mistake....and their relationship played no small part in Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. But the birth of Luke and Leia is a very GOOD thing....this is a prime example of how [the will of the Force] can ultimately bring something good out of a bad decision. Luke and Leia are the means by which Anakin's decision to turn to the Dark Side (which was caused in no small measure by his marriage to Padme) can ultimately be reversed, in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Put simply: their marriage helped Anakin fall, and their children helped Anakin redeem himself. But if their marriage could have been avoided (or at least postponed) in the first place, then Anakin probably wouldn't have needed his kids to save him.

 

The whole marriage was a mistake. You cannot deny that. They acted implusively. They got married too quickly. Look at them three years later. Anakin's a paranoid powerfreak and Padme's a shadow of her former self. Anakin cannot be honest with Padme. He shuts her out. He doesn't trust her wisdom or judgement. He sees her as this naivee child who doesn't know **** from Shinolah (sp). He's suspicious of her and jealous of others. He's a control freak. And when she wants to walk away, he proclaims that no one will take her from him. He even chokes her, without stopping to think that she truly didn't know Obi-wan stowed away on her ship. He's so busy behaving like a child, that he doesn't stop to think and use the Force, as Obi-wan has instructed over the years. Their relationship was doomed from the very beginning.

The Skywalker twins are the only good thing that ever came out of that marriage. That's why Lucas plays up the importance of Luke to Vader's redemption. As Lucas says, having children should bring out the best in you. Which it does. My point and the point of the story is that they made a mistake. It's not called "Forbidden Love" for nothing. They may have really loved each other, but they got themselves in way over their heads. As Padme said, he's training to be a Jedi and she's a Senator. They could never live a normal life, even if they went public from the outset. Not only would he be expelled, but Queen Jamilla would've fired her as Senator for it. The media would be in their business. They'd be the subject of gossip and innuendo for years. They'd become infamous in the history texts and vids for years to come.

But in the end, their lives are destroyed because of his actions. In his quest to keep his perfect life, Anakin winds up destroying that which he wanted to possess. He is like Opedius (sp) Rex. He discovered what was a terrible future for him, but in his effort to prevent it from coming to pass, he winds up causing the whole thing to transpire.


Had Anakin not been so attached to Padme, he wouldn't have half the troubles that he has.

 

But Anakin has already started his path to the Dark Side when he massacred the Tusken village and as long as Palpatine was around Anakin and playing mind tricks with his head, Anakin would still kill Dooku and betray the Jedi...only without Padme coming back into his life, Anakin's fall would've been completed much earlier and there will be noone to talk some sense into him.

No Padme=No Luke and Leia.
No Luke and Leia= No redemption.
No redemption=The Sith rule the galaxy forever.

 

But Anakin has already started his path to the Dark Side when he massacred the Tusken village and as long as Palpatine was around Anakin and playing mind tricks with his head, Anakin would still kill Dooku and betray the Jedi...only without Padme coming back into his life, Anakin's fall would've been completed much earlier and there will be noone to talk some sense into him.

I see what you're saying. But at the same time, it all comes back to, if he hadn't married Padme....then when Sidious was found out as a Sith Lord, there would be no reason holding Anakin back like an attachment to get in the way of him killing him.

If anything Anakin would most definetly want to because it would probably earn him some kind of *special* place in the Order.

 

anakins turn to the darkside was very good and alittle rushed and in some scenes not done as great as they could of been. i think we should of had more deception and temptation of power from palpatine in attack of the clones so that when we get into rots we see that he finally gets to anakin and whe mace attacks it makes more sense.

overall episode 2 should of shown more and more or temptation towards anakin and even alittle distrust and tension so that we get a deeper sense of betrayl in rots.

 

Would Anakin have turned to the dark side if Shmi Skywalker was still alive?

 

It's an interesting question, and I don't think we can say for sure either way.

But Anakin turned because he thought doing so would save the people he loves, he did it for "good" reasons. As Hayden has said, he believed he was doing it for the good of the universe, and for his loved ones. Of course this was a very misguided belief, we know that. He turned with Padme still alive, so there's really no reason to believe he wouldn't have done so with his mother still alive. I think eventually it may have given him pause. Arguably the reason he stays with Palpatine post-suit is because he feels like he has nothing left, wife/baby/Jedi/Obi-Wan/mother. If his mother is alive, she being removed from the situation entirely, he may have second thoughts.

 

you are right RebelScum77, I never thought of that.

 

I watched the ROTS DVD for the first time yesterday. It was my first viewing of this movie since I saw it in the theaters in May. I think the turn works on screen. Although, I think the turn is rushed, but mainly because Lucas had way too much of the story to tell in this one movie. I really wish Anakin's turn had begun at the end of Ep. II. The turn could have been in the same way: his confusion and fear of losing Padme. This way Ep. III could have focused in more detail his descent and the loss of himself. It could have focused on the dark side enveloping him and consuming whatever good intentions he may have had w/ siding w/ Sidious.

I do think the rationales work. He sides w/ Palps against Mace because he was desperate to find a way to save Padme. You can tell this with the regret he shows immediately after helping Palps kill Mace. He pledges his loyalty to Palps w/ reluctance. He goes and kills the Jedi in the temple (including the younglings) as a misguided pragmatic choice: he needed Palps and his teachings. During this act and the slaughter of the separatist leaders, Anakin begins to try to rationalize his reprehensible acts: the Jedi were traitors, the republic is weak...This rationalization to justify his deplorable acts and the heinous acts he was commiting led the dark side to consume him.

I agree with those who say he never believed in the Sith ideals. He made a misguided decision. He made a deal with the devil and lost everything. He spent the rest of his life blinding himself with rationalization for his evil: he was the victim, the Jedi were bad...

 

Well it's simple, really. Anakin had no choice but to throw his hat into ring with Sidious. After whacking Windu, there was no turning back. The Jedi would never have understood Anakin's selfish and twisted reasoning for what he did to Mace. Anakin believed the Jedi were keeping things from him. Anakin's assumption became a fact in his own mind, when the Council did not afford him the rank of Master.

With the Jedi out of the way, Anakin could gain access to whatever secrets the Jedi Temple held.

Let's not forget how soon Vader was having thoughts of overthrowing Sidious. Vader wanted to rule from the get-go.

As someone else posted, Anakin only wanted Sidious's knowledge and pledged himself accordingly.

Brings new meaning to the line: "You don't know the power of the dark side of the Force..."

 

Anakin never really did want to turn to the dark side he just did not want padme to die so then he finds that palps knows how to save ppl from death so then he finds that palp knows the dark side and he idioticly goes and tells windu who then wants to arrest him anakin wants to help but windu does not let him but in the council chambers anakin gets a change of heart and thinks palp knows the dark side but may not be evil so he goes to stop windu from killing palp but there palp lies to him saying the jedi were taking over anikin belives him windu says he's wrong and tries to kill him but anakin stops him and palp gets rid of him so he pledges him self to palp's teachings but only to save padme but later he talks with padme and he says he can over throw the chancellor because now he can save her but than he sees obi and thinks padme betrayed him and brought obi to kill him but he gets so angry he ends up get sliced and burned up and padme loses her will to live because she thinks anakins dead

 

I made an interestong discovery while studying for my Classical Mythology final. The Greek word for Necessity is Ananke and it occured to be that this could be the source of the name Anakin and what I've been wondering is whether or not Anakin's fall was a necessary evil.A though, a question, anyone?

 

Up for recent discussion.

 

Well Anakin absolutely had to fall to the dark side for the classic trilogy to work. His getting there was Lucas' problem, lol. Anakin wanted power - the power to save Padme from dying, but also the power to face and defeat anything else that came up (his kids dying, the destruction of R2D2, Obi-Wan dying - anything and everything he loved, he wanted to save, plus his natural compassion made him want to save all kinds of beings, including clones and whatever else). So the bottom line was power and he saw Palpatine as the road to that power. Now he was also a Jedi Knight - and he truly was. ALL Jedi danced with the dark side (Obi-Wan when he killed Darth Maul, Mace trying to kill Palpatine, etc.) - but that did not make them Sith or embracers of the dark force. Lucas says when Anakin firmly decided that he'd crossed the line (unknowingly allowing Palpatine to kill Mace) he knew that there was only one road left - to follow his quest for power. That is when he fell to his knees, made a deal with the devil and became a Sith Lord - albeit with a Jedi Knight buried in his soul.

Anakin immediately knew he wanted to kill Palpatine - he told Padme that at Mustafar. But he needed information first. Anakin seriously felt betrayed by the Jedi in general, for many reasons. Then the ultimate betrayal was Obi-Wan agreeing with them and betraying him with Padme. That sealed it for Anakin. If Obi-Wan had at that point told Anakin he would join him in his quest, all of the fire would have gone from Anakin and I bet Obi-Wan could have redeemed him shortly thereafter because as we all know, there was still good in Anakin - and he hated Palpatine at that point, wanted to wipe him out too. But Obi-Wan elected to 'kill the Sith' which you can't blame him, that was the basis of his training and belief system for his whole life.

So you get the duel. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan allowed their beliefs to overrule their love for one another. Obi-Wan wins, but his beliefs (and I figure his love) did not allow him to go as far as killing the helpless Anakin. In the novel, Anakin makes a plea after the duel, 'Obi-Wan' he calls. But Obi-Wan leaves him in a final act of betrayal (in Anakin's eyes). Then who should come along and play saviour? Sidious - the man who has the knowledge Anakin believes he wants. Despite all that Palpatine has done to him (which Anakin knows now) - and despite the fact that he hated Sidious, and Sidious knows that - he still does all in his power to rescue and save Anakin. Anakin, no matter what else he feels, had to be grateful for that on some level - at least in that moment.

So as Vader, the first thought Anakin has is he will serve under Palpatine - his saviour - the one who despite all, did not betray him by leaving him to die. Thus, completing the final phase of Anakin's downfall. But he is not completely Palpatine's man yet. After calling Sidious "Master" his first desire is to know of Padme. He finds out she is dead and Obi-Wan becomes the greatest betrayer of all in Anakin's mind. And so, Anakin becomes a full fledged Sith with a true hatred for all Jedi in that moment - including (and possibly most of all) the Jedi Knight that still remains within himself.

Vader kills a ton of Jedi, including Obi-Wan and fully supports Palpatine (with some inssurection) but the one Jedi Knight Vader wanted to kill most - he was unable to, the most powerful one of all and the one that would be Vader's undoing. And that Jedi Knight was: Anakin Skywalker.

Ironic.

 

"Don't you wonder why the Jedi Council won't make you a Master?" "They don't trust you." "I would doubt the Council's judgment if they didn't choose you for this mission."

Why is Anakin such an idiot? How does he not see that he is being manipulated?

"You must kill all the Jedi in the temple and then kill everyone in the Mustafar system. Then you will be powerful enough in the dark side to save Padme."

"Okay, do you think that will work?"

"Oh, yes, Anakin. Kill all the Jedi, especially the babies and the children, and you will be able to save Padme's life."

"Wow, it's so simple. Thanks Palps!"

*High Five*