*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by That_Wascally_Droid, Dec 21, 2002.

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  1. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Strilo, what made you feel I was speaking about the actual scene shooting and editing of the film? All I have spoken about is the content of the storyline in my posts. By 'executed' I meant how it was finally done in the movie from a storyline standpoint. The test audience wanted the storyline to go differently - as did I. I don't care whether he used a side shot or a top shot or edited Palaptine's white sock out of the movie...?
  2. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Execution refers to how something is carried out. The story is executed through the screenplay and the production and the post-production. It's a natural assumption that you were referring to one of these things. I also think you are grossly misinterpreting what Lucas was referring to in those quotes. It's like how some people in the audience wanted Anakin to be older in TPM because they wanted it that way and expected it to be that way. He's saying some people in the screening audience wanted Anakin to be betrayed directly and tangibly by someone close to him because they wanted it that way and expected it to be that way. But to have Anakin directly betrayed by someone close to him like that would have completely altered the message that Lucas wanted to convey. That alters the very foundation of the story he is telling and THAT is his story to tell, not a test audience's. I think that is what he's trying to say.
  3. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    I agree...in fact I am not exactly sure what you are disagreeing with me on. I am certainly not saying the things you put in my mouth - so you can discount those. Apart from that, we seem to be saying the same thing. I don't agree with the exact things the audience came up with, I only agree with them on this one point:

    "Some people were having a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad"

    So all of the other stuff you are saying I am saying - well I am not saying that. If you think I mis-interpreted something, you would have to point it out directly, because I have no idea what you are talking about. You misunderstood what I meant by executed, but hopefully now you understand.
  4. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    No it sounds to me like you are saying you simply want the reasons for Anakin's turn as George outlines them to be clearer IN THE FILM. As it stands now, you feel they are not clear. The audience in that testing wanted an altogether different reason.
  5. LemmingLord Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 4
    I'd rather the question came up "what ahppened to the younglings" then to have Anakin kill them thirty seconds after joining the bad guys. How about a scene where he takes the troops in - but instead of killing them all, the troops take the younglings to put them on trucks like the Nazi's did with the jews? There could still be a scene with Anakin killing anyone who resists if necsesary. Could even have Anakin going with the Empereror's spiel, "by order of the emperor and the imperial senate and due to recent plots against the government by this organization, So-and-so, so and so, so-and-so will come with me to be detained for questioning.." Anakin can then arrest them if they are willing or kill them if they are not.. Either way, it leaves younglings in the hands of the empire. I think putting them on trucks and sending them away is much more powerful and more in keeping with the kind of betrayal I'd like to see.

    To debate the main point, I don't think the younglings had to be dealt with at all. The OT says that Vader helped to hunt down the jedi knights. Besides the fact that the younglings are NOT jedi nor jedi knights, Vader can HELP without killing everyone with his bare hands (bare lightsabers?).
  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I don't put a grain of salt into any of that mumbo-jumbo, damage-control, or 'spin' that Lucas said about the test audience. The hacks to Anakin's turn came LATER in the game, and after his homies had taken a look. They didn't like the fact that Anakin stood there and let Palpatine cut down his former running mates. So Lucas changed it. And the turn sucked ever since.

    And I would know about the changes since I was the one who spoiled the 3SA on Mace's dialogue. I looked, but my message/post history doesn't go back that far. I think I titled the thread, Mace vs Anakin: "Yes I can. I have to." Or something close to it.
  7. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    It's an aside, but I think the slaughter of the younglings is one of the most powerful things anywhere in Star Wars and was very much needed. It was a necessary thing for Lucas to do and he showed it exactly how he needed to. I was worried that he would not have the balls to show even what he did. It also works for me because I see Anakin's turn starting in AOTC when he slaughters the sandpeople. It's not one minute he's fine with the Jedi and the next he's killing babies. It's three years of struggle with the dark side before it consumes him.
  8. SHAD0W-JEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    I have mixed feelings about a lot of this. It sure did seem that once Anakin turned... he plunged right into full-blown "villainy" awfully fast. There was no dipping his toes in at the water's edge... no slow progression down that path. One minute he was "saving" Sidious - an act that we COULD argue was done impulsively, and even with half-good intentions (if you want to believe that what really motivated Anakin was an aversion to seeing a helpless prisoner killed, versus selfish need - although I honestly think it was the latter) - and the next he was killing his former colleagues AND the younglings.

    On the other hand... I have to say that it WORKED for me, on an emotional level, when I saw the movie the first time (and every time since). The "Jedi purge" is nasty, brutal, ugly, sad business, and Anakin's fall is hard and brutal and absolutely "wonderfully' uncool. I am not eloquent enough to explain it...but lets face it, up to a CERTAIN POINT, lots of bad guys, especially in fantasy/sci fi...are "cool". Maul, Boba Fett, etc, etc... But with Anakin's fall, Lucas showed completely unglamorized, in your face, ugly, nasty, "real" evil. You can't watch that youngling flinch when Anakin lights his saber and feel anything besides sadness and disgust. You can't watch that Padawan cut down trying to help Organa and feel anything but sadness and anger (yes, realize that was the clonetroopers doing, not Anakin's...just saying it was of a kind!). I thnk the story needed Anakin to make a near irrevocable hard TURN, and one that left the audience feeling sad and sick.

    Lastly... I think folks are being a bit hard on ObiWan here... yes, he is a Jedi, one of the best, which would imply a certain emotional control and stoicism, a desire to always seek the peaceful solution... but... come on guys, you DO have to factor in what ObiWan has just seen and experienced. The Jedi are being slaughtered. Not just killed in battle - betrayed and murdered and slaughtered. The younglings were butchered by a LIGHTSABER... wielded by the Jedi HE trained! His former Padawan, his "friend", has betrayed the Jedi, betrayed the galaxy, helped a Sith Lord overthrow the government, and has PERSONALLY killed a lot of ObiWan's colleagues. He has just Force-strangled his pregnant wife. Might the scene have worked, might it have been even sadder, if ObiWan had seemed a bit less ready to go at it with Anakin? Maybe. But at that point, given all that had transpired...? I am inclined to cut ObiWan some slack...*S*

    Shadow
  9. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    The whole slaughter of the younglings was defeated to me when they re-showed them laying on the ground dead, but their bodies totally whole and fine looking, no arms or legs missing - not even a saber hole through the chest. How did Anakin kill them? Not like he killed the separtists, slashing them to bits. It looked to me like he had to have done it by stopping their hearts or something. While death is death and it was a slaughter for sure, perhaps the fact that he did not cut them to pieces was supposed to show that he struggled with the task as he had just turned dark. Same when he stood crying after killing the separtists - a recognition of what he'd become and that he knew it was wrong. Still, the turning could have been clearer to me.

    Strilo, yeah, I have no idea if anyone in the audience thought like me. That wasn't my point. My point was that George had negative feedback pertaining to the way Anakin turned as people had a hard time with assimilating it as shown. So did I. That was all I was trying to say.

    Finally, I cut Obi-Wan all the slack in the world, just not George. He shouldn't have had Obi-Wan draw first if it was not his intention to make it seem that Obi-Wan gave up on Anakin and decided to kill him. Obi-Wan made it "Conversation over" and instead of taking the time to speak on a non-galatic level, he declared Anakin sounded like a Sith because he was dealing in absolutes - I ask you, WHEN didn't Anakin deal in absolutes during his life? Granted, Anakin had just slaughtered Jedi and the younglings - but AFTER seeing that, Obi-Wan declared he still couldn't kill Anakin - as if on some level he still understood him or something. But his speech at Mustafar reflected none of that and so it just came across as precipitous to me for him to jerk out his saber and start things at the point he did.
  10. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yes his slide began when he butchered the camp, and it was nicely done. But most of his character progression took place in CW, not the movies. So in III, I felt let down.

    Having Vader kill the kiddies was overkill, it was too contrived in such a short turn of events.
    Now if the turn hadn't been altered, and he stood there while the Jedi got mowed down, then I can see him marching on the Temple and whacking everyone in site. He would have been in awe of what Sidious just pulled-off, and he would have coveted power even more... then the youngling slaughter would have felt more in line. See, what kills it for me is the fact that he was sobbing on his knees about his prego-wife, and 4 minutes later he's drawing his blade on some kids. It is too rushed, too forced upon us... his turn. The five second holo-recording vs drallig and co. doesn't do the movie any favors, especially after watching him 'storm' the Temple...
  11. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Exactly...I can only agree.
  12. Eternity85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    I agree. The way everything played out, i just didnt feel that i was ready for Anakin slaughtering the younglings. I say to myself, no he couldnt have done that, he must have ordered the clones to do it. For me, as i think it was for most SW fans, Anakins turn was one of the most important scenes in the saga. But the first time i saw it, i was very dissapointed.

    If Anakin butchered the younglings he would have to be completely consumed by darkness, and he couldnt have been aware of who he was or what he was doing. But it seems to me that it was way to early for him to have fallen that far. BTW, Palpatines line when he tells Anakin that he have to wipe out the jedi and the trade federation, because then he will be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme. Its just silly, it makes Anakin look like a mindless monster. its like, "Ok here is a list of people you need to kill, after you have done this you will be able to save your wife". Ok great, no problem, i love you palps, you are such a good friend.

  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Not to mention the fact that he's already faced Dooku a minimum of two times.
    He knew Dooku the Sith Lord wasn't stronger than Anakin was as a Jedi.

    the tuen was poorly planned, poorly executed...
    poor OT Vader.
    :p
  14. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Well if I correctly understand what people mean by "executed" now, then I would say that the scenes were 'pretty' - lol. I thought the colors and effects used were great - it was dark, riviting and the lighting was perfect. The face shot of Anakin was perfect. However, everything coming out of the mouths of the actors was "off" to me. So I agree with the poorly planned and the script required vast improvement. And finally I agree, poor OT Vader...
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    OT-Vader would have Force-choked his own sobbing, unsuited-ass right there if he could flow-walk, or whatever its called.
  16. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Anakin has already past the point of no return by cutting off Mace's hand. He knows he isn't powerful enough to kill Sidious (which Sid himself has said to Yoda) and if he didn't help him, any hopes of saving Padme will die along with her...or so he thinks. Her life is being held hostage by Sidious's fake promise of having the power to save her so Anakin had no other option than to swear loyalty to Sidious. Another thing, Obi-wan mentioned in ANH that Anakin "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi" but he can't do that if he's just standing around doing nothing while the clone troops do all the work. Sidious would want Anakin to do something that would prove to him that Anakin has indeed embraced the Dark Side and that is where the Younglings slaughter and that holo-recording attack come in.
  17. Darkstar51 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2007
    I've been bothered by Anakin's fall ever since the movie came out. I watched it again this weekend, and I think it would have worked much better like this:

    Have Palpatine reveal himself a little sooner to Anakin. Palps actually makes some good arguments about the Jedi being too narrow-minded, and that if you want to understand something, you should look at ALL sides of it. Finally, his assertion that the dark side could help save Padme is the most compelling argument for Anakin. And all the while, even when Anakin draws his saber, Palpatine is still playing the friend card. He's still smiling and seems very understanding of Anakin's feelings.

    If Anakin had turned right then -- if he had not gone to the Council, but thought about this revelation for awhile, and then turned, I think it would have been more believable. Because at first, he could simply go on as though nothing had happened. He could begin learning Palpatine's teachings, but not show his hand to the Jedi. He might even tell himself that he was still doing the right thing, because it would help Padme -- that he would only learn just enough to save her, and then confront Palpatine about being Sith. Then, at some point later in the movie, perhaps after Obi-Wan had left to find Grievous, some of the Jedi could find out about Anakin's fall.

    Anakin would view their confrontation as being judgmental (and in the case of Mace Windu and some others, it probably would be). He becomes defensive and angry, he and Palps are forced to kill several of the masters (maybe the same 4 Palps faces in the movie), and then he fully embraces the dark side because he feels like he's come too far to do anything else. Combine that feeling with his anger at the Jedi for the way they've reacted to him, and he might just be ready to attack the temple, and possibly even kill younglings.

    I don't know, there are probably better ways to do it than that, and I guess it really doesn't matter anyway since it's too late now. But I think something along those lines that shows a slow descent into the dark side would have made more sense.
  18. LemmingLord Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 4
    Yes, a little more gradual of a seduction like that would have felt less rushed to me also.

    I wonder if there's something that could have been done with Anakin's dreams... If Sideious could have offered Anakin some Sithly advice about lucid dreaming... and about allowing himself to be angry in his dreams... to overcome that which kills Padame.... Then he could feel his power rise...and maybe in his dreams he could be saving Padame... but when he doesn't rage in his dreams...when he doesn't let the dark side flow through him in the dreams....Padame dies...

    Also - what if the chancellor lets himself get arrested early in the film.. He has his playing card in Anakin... Anakin can actually go to the temple to help him escape! Man... THAT would have been great.
  19. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Even though it might have been more believable to the viewer to have Anakin turn slower, it would have defeated George's point. He wanted Anakin shown to be attempting to be the best Jedi he could be (which we all know he was failing). He didn't want it to appear that Anakin had accepted evil in his heart and become completely sullied because then ROTJ makes no sense - there has to still be good in him. The rapid events (Mace's death) which Anakin hadn't expected, make him feel suddenly doomed. Things went in a direction he had totally not expected and in Anakin's mind, events conspired that left only one viable road open to him. If he returned to the Jedi at that point - they would condemn him (in his mind) and he'd get no where AND lose Padme. If he turned to Palpatine's service, he is going to be made a God (power) and save Padme - and anyone else in the future he wished to save - he'd never have to give up another person he was attached to again (greed). He chose the latter and he knew it was wrong. The fact is, if he had days to think about it with advice from say Obi-Wan, he would not have likely chosen Sidious - but as it was, he was alone, felt both sides were corrupt and elected the choice that was most beneficial to himself - the selfish choice.

    It is easier in the long run to explain a split second god awful decision that firmly sets a person on the wrong path - especially when they have struggled in the past with the issue - as a "mistake" by a good person - than it is to explain how Anakin sat down and thought everything through, fooled the Jedi, chose Palpatine over time and welcomed the dark force completely into his heart - as a "mistake" by a good person. That latter scenario sounds like a person who made a perfectly "sound choice" and is simply "bad" inside.

    That is why the whole turning thing had to be quick. I am of the opinion that it should have been quick, but that there should have been more conversation involved to help the audience understand everything going on in Anakin's head. It was all in the movie, but broken up and at the moment he turned it was hard for people to pull it altogether, imo.

    Remember the whole point of ROTS was not just to show Anakin's downfall, but to show how it was possible that he resurfaced in ROTJ and destroyed Palpatine as a Jedi Knight. This is very important to the story because we know as Vader, he wished to overthrow Lord Sidious as a Sith - it was the Sith way. And it was evident in the movie that Sidious and Vader were not hand in glove (Vader's disagreement's with him, his declaration that he and Luke would kill Sidious and Rule, etc.) So George had to show that Anakin was capable of throwing off all of the "evil" in a moment by making it extremely obvious in ROTS that Anakin started the whole downfall with conflict in his heart that would last a lifetime. He couldn't do that by showing Anakin faithfully, purposefully and dedicatedly turning slowly to the darkside and accepting it's tenants because of his true and unshakeable belief in them. I mean how believeable would it have sounded at that point for Anakin to say "what have I done?" We would all say that he should have thought about that during the hours, days, weeks or years he was turing to the dark side.
  20. LemmingLord Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 4
    The PT never suggested to me that Anakin was trying in the slightest to be a good Jedi.. While he does show regret for failing to be the jedi he thinks he should be, he doesn't show any sign of changing his behavior does he?

    As plausible as making a split-decision mistake (such as attacking Mace in defense of the Chancellor) can be at ruining the rest of a person's life, it doesn't, in my mind, show a seduction.. I do not see Anakin becoming ENAMORED with the dark side or by Sideous. I wanted E3 to live up the promise of Obi Wan, "Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force.." As it is, he is more blackmailed by the dark side of the force. Broadsided by the dark side of the force?
  21. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    You said the PT never suggested that Anakin was trying in the slightest to be a good Jedi - and yet then you say he shows regret for failing - what more do you want? Obviously if he felt he was failing, he was trying to do the right thing. He was a fantastic Jedi at times - that was the council's problem. If he was not trying to be a good Jedi, he would have given into his anger ALL the time and gotten kicked out of the Order, certainly not made a Knight. But as it was, he was a great Jedi and at times a great failure of a Jedi, leaving them in doubt.

    You may have wished to see Anakin become enaormed by the dark side, but the fact is, he never did, not completely anyway. Obi-Wan said that Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force - not that he was enamored or completely taken over by it. Your understanding of that statement will depend on what was meant by "seduced"; it seems like you mean seduction can only occur slowly - but it can happen fast. Obi-Wan DID say that "he's an evil twisted being, more machine than man" and felt there was no good in Vader (Anakin). Obi-Wan was wrong. It sounds like you want the whole script re-written [face_batting] . You can't have it both ways; either he was completely into the dark force and went into it whole-heartedly without remorse, or he didn't. George opted for the second because he didn't want him to be a whole-hearted, evil Sith like Palpatine, he wanted him to be the ultimate Jedi Knight hero.
  22. Padawan_of_Palpatine Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    I can completely understand why some feel that the turn was "ineffective", or that it should have taken place over a longer period of time. However, I personally enjoy the way it went. To me, this was the best possible way for it to go down. Before the prequels, I always envisioned this war hardened, mature Anakin. A Jedi that had "been around the block" a few times, but still young at heart and spirit. A Jedi that would have been shown the keys to power and decided to go that way for INSERT REASON HERE. I never in a million years thought that it would deal with his fear of loss and attachment to loved ones.

    Because of this, it made me look at Vader in a new light. It caused me to look beyond what was under the mask. It made me wonder what was going on inside the head inside the mask. I always say that Anakin did TERRIBLE things. Absolutely awful. Things that I can "sit here" and say I would never do. He was tricked in ways that I swear would never happen to me. But...and this is where I end up disagreeing with my friends....I can see where someone with less information than I have as a viewer could potentially make bad decisions. I can remember making decisions at a split second that on look back, I wonder what I was thinking. I have seen people walk in on a cheating spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend. I have seen people with opportunities to steal when things were bad. I've been around people that think and say things that make you wonder. Point is, everyone is wired differently. We all know that one person who no one seems to get. That one person that you can never agree with. You think to yourself, "How can this person think Kobe is the best. Lebron is the real man". (But that is because Kobe IS the man, but that's neither here nor there[face_whistling] )

    Funny thing is, I always wanted Vader to remain ultra cool and ultra cold hearted. I ended up loving that he became a whine first ask questions later young man that had emotional issues. For me, it made the entire story that much better.
  23. Darkstar51 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Yeah, I think those are great points. And I definitely think it works the way it is (although I agree that more explanation of what was going on in his head would have been nice). But at the same time, I don't necessarily think that a slower descent would have been contradictory to the original trilogy. He could still have had a spark of goodness inside him that would have grown throughout the years as he saw more and more what Palpatine really was.

    I don't know if you guys read any of the Republic comics, but I like the way they handled Quinlan Vos's character in those. He was supposed to infiltrate Count Dooku's organization, and was forced to wear the guise of being under the dark side. But the ironic thing was that he really was slowly turning to the darkside, without even realizing it. He kept telling himself that it was only for show, that he was fooling them all. But for awhile, the only one he was fooling was himself. Of course, he eventually turned back to the light, because there had been good in him all along.

    But I could have seen Anakin going down a similar path. He could have told himself that learning from Palpatine was for the "greater good" since he could save the ones he loved. Actually, he does something similar in the movie when he buys Palpatine's lies about "restoring peace" to the galaxy.

    I think I would have enjoyed it better to see a more gradual seduction, as LemmingLord mentioned. But at the same time, I do see how it works this way. I don't think it flowed as well, but I can understand why GL went this way with it.
  24. Darkstar51 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2007
    I'll say one more thing too. I thought that Anakin would be darker throughout the entire movie. But I was pleasantly surprised with the way he and Obi-Wan really seemed to love each other and get along. I liked how Anakin continued to try to do the right thing all the way up to his fall. In some ways, he seemed more "Jedi-like" than many of the other characters in the movie, especially in that moment with Palpatine and Windu.

    Like I said, I still think a slower progression would have flowed better, but I really enjoyed the way they had him trying to do the right thing through most of the movie. And after his fall, certain scenes really did a great job showing his anguish.
  25. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah I liked Quinlan Vos's story - but that was different because he set out to fool everyone and was supposedly still a Jedi. He may have gotten sucked in by the dark side, but that is kind of EU lore because George doesn't really have people sucked to the dark side against their will in the movies. Anakin chose it (like Dooku) - but he did it on the spur of the moment. He could have changed the whole story and made it more like Quinlan's, but that wouldn't have really worked because Quinlin was struggling against it for the most part, the entire time - whereas it would have been kind of weird for Darth Vader to do the things he did and have been struggling in the same way for 23 years - Sidious would have noticed and he wouldn't have gone for that. Anakin convinced himself the Sith way was the right way - Vos never went that far and Vos wasn't force choking generals every 5 minutes (lol). Even if you mean that he would have just like that until his final fall, I think it would have still make Anakin's choice too solid - to based in an actual desire for the dark side based on having given himself over too it, seen it was what he wanted and embraced it. It would be like he was actually surrendering all of the good inside of him to the dark side. I think that is why George didn't play it that way.

    As it went, Anakin walked into it seduced by the idea that it would give him the power to save Padme, that is, redefine the parameters of life itself. Anakin was greedy like that; he became attached and did not wish to let go of anything. Padme was just the beginning - for Anakin, it meant he never had to give anything up again as he had his mother and Qui-Gon.

    As an aside, I heard GL told the writers not to kill Vos which has some believing he may make an appearance in the Animated Series. That would be wicked, I hope it happens.
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