*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by That_Wascally_Droid, Dec 21, 2002.

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  1. Darkstar51 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Yeah, I'm hoping he'll show up in the animated series, and maybe even the live-action one next year. He's a cool character...

    And back to Anakin's fall, I like the arguments you've made. If nothing else, those scenes won't seem quite so jumpy to me as they did before.
  2. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    I just realized something watching ROTS again. I know where the scene failed now. When Anakin shouted to Mace: "Don't kill him! I need him," Right there. Mace totally ignored the statement and thinking on it, I don't see how he could. That has to be the most ridiculous thing for a Jedi to say - why would he NEED a Dark Lord of the Sith? I'm thinking Lucas should have had Mace ask as much - or have left that line out. [face_laugh]
  3. LemmingLord Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 4
    Or perhaps have Anakin knock Mace unconscious.... and THEN say "no, I need him..."
  4. AnakinBrego Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    What doesn't sit well with me is Anakin's justifaction that all the Jedi deserved to die! Why? Because they didn't recognize his talents and they didn't trust him? I think that if Anakin was to turn on the Jedi there should have been something more convincing, maybe a setup for only his eyes only by Palpatine they are evil. Not just Mace attampting to execute Palpatine, Mace explained gave Anakin a reasonable explanation to Anakin he was able to understand, yes the Sith are evil! From my understanding Anakin never really saw or was given a realistic justifaction that all the Jedi deserved to die. Anakin knew they weren't evil (he knew the Sith were evil), so when he betrays them it's a bit hard to believe it when he says they are. In my opinion it would of been better for the movie had Palpatine set up Anakin to witness a Jedi betrayal that anakin could believe that the Jedi are the evil ones, we'd have a more convincing turn.

    I remember reading that Palpatine was fighting with Anakin's lightsaber against Mace because before reshoots Anakin was there when Mace arrived. Maybe there was a scene where Anakin turned on his fellow Jedi's, but it's just me wishing it's there on the cutting room floor.
  5. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    That wasn't the reason (Mace)...the reason was that the Jedi had turned on the Republic and were plotting to take over. That is what Palpy told Anakin. He didn't believe it at first, but then Mace was there breaking the Jedi Code and trying to kill Palpatine instead of arrest him. The thing is, Anakin might have subconsciously realized that the Jedi would never do that, but he convinced himself it was true because he had his other motive in keeping Padme alive and the only person who had offered him a way to do that was Palpatine. Anakin went to Yoda first remember, and Yoda just told him to basically "get over it dude" - and Anakin didn't hang with that. So Anakin adopted the belief that the Jedi were trying to take over and rule the galaxy. In the end, he didn't trust either the Jedi OR Palpatine - his plan on Mustafar (as told to Padme) was to kill Palpatine and rule with her (as he had already killed the Jedi). But he needed Palpatine alive until he learned the power to keep people from dying. That was the greed Lucas referred to: Anakin wanted power above all to keep those alive he loved and make things go as he wanted them to. It was greed driven by love and compassion, but greed nonetheless and he obsessed over it to the point where it ended up destroying everything he was trying to save.
  6. AnakinBrego Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    To tell you the truth I never got the message in the film that the Jedi went bad, in plotting to take over. What I understood in the movie was that the Jedi were removing a corrupt politician. I never got that Anakin was convinced of the jedi were plotting to take over. More like a justifaction later on to convince himself, deluding himself that the Jedi were bad and the Sith were good, but he really knew otherwise. Anakin's just pathetic!
  7. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin's justification for wanting the Jedi dead has more to do with their lack of compassion towards him. The Jedi have doubted Anakin too much since he first came into their temple and he can sense it. When it came to the "Anakin's mom is still a slave" situation, the Jedi haven't done anything to help her. Plus, The Jedi have ignored Anakin's mental problems (even when Yoda sensed his pain over his mother's death) and they wouldn't give Anakin the support system that he needed, hence why he goes to Palpatine for that. Anyone who feels ignored or left out will tend to lash their anger out upon the whole world and in Anakin's case, his anger got the entire Jedi Order killed.
  8. Eternity85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    The Jedi Order needed to change, and i dont think they would have been able to do that if they had not been destroyed. Its a tough lesson, and tragic, but it was probably the only way.

    After the rain comes the sun...
  9. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    The Jedi Council wasn't bad, they were just archaic, stuck in their old ways, clouded in their vision by the dark side, careless with their "chosen one" and showed too much distrust, disatisfaction and lack of understanding toward Anakin. He merited special attention because they broke their own rules in allowing him to come in too late, saddled with attachments, prone to anger, fear and ready hatred of things he didn't like. So they pretty much blew it. Anakin was very vulnerable to the lure of the dark side from the beginning and they either failed to see it or saw it and made horrific decisions on what to do about it.

    Then they made their hugest error; after all of the improper raising of Jedi Anakin, they treated him as if he were just like any other Jedi and expected things to just "work out". =D=

    So yeah, the Jedi spawned their own doom by their mistakes. Anakin made the choice of the dark side over the side they were trying to get him to follow - that was his own doing, but based on his background, the circumstances and his character - much of which was heavily influenced by the council's lack of due care.
  10. AnakinBrego Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    Anakin: "What have I done??

    Palpatine: ?You?re fulfilling your destiny, Anakin. Become my new apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the Force. It is the only way to save Padme."

    Anakin: ?I pledge myself to your teachings.?

    Palpatine: ?Good, good. The Force is strong with you. A powerful Sith you will become. Henceforth you shall be known as Darth?Vader.?

    Anakin: ?Thank you, my Master.?

    Palpatine: ?Rise.?

    I think the scene flows better this way.
  11. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    well I just re-watched AOTC and man I love that movie - but I was watching this time to really try to gauge Anakin headed for the dark side and you know, for all of the clues; his anger, the tuskins, his marriage, etc., GL actually did also show a heck of a lot of Anakin the classic Jedi. I was pretty surprised because for some reason my memory of it in between watching seems to render it darker than it really was. I've seen it zillons of times, but this time I actually came away liking Padme a lot more, dunno why - but I'd forgotten how much she drove their romance and I guess I saw her strength more for some reason. Anyway, now it is for some reason sitting better with me that Anakin would go to the dark side to save her. Certain lines popped out at me - when they were at the diner and he told her that his Jedi oath kept him from those he loved (meaning her), it was also evident that it was not just Padme, but his mum and also Obi-Wan because he could love him all he wanted, but showing attachment and affection is out of the question, so he may as well have not had Obi-Wan close either. Anyway, AOTC is actually a perfect lead in into ROTS and the fall if you look for the darkness, because it is not that evident and it does show that Anakin is growing into a state of greediness when it comes to those he loves. As an aside, it was kick to watch R2 and CP30 meet up for the first time, when you think of it in terms of the whole saga, and even the EU, while watching that scene, it is actually way wicked. Anyway, everytime I watch I come away feeling a little different, and this time it is with a new sense of Anakin's turn being a little more realistic than before.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    R2 and 3PO met in TPM.
  13. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Oh yeah! LoL...have to watch that again too, it was also pretty kick. But I guess because it was their first mission, the other just flew from my mind... tx for the reminder (that I'm getting old [face_laugh]
  14. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Up for current discussion.
  15. Obi-Chron Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    He said: "Hey, kids. Take a walk on the Dark Side!"

    [image=http://rgarypatterson.com/images/walrus1994-390-0743244230.jpg]

  16. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

    Game Host
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    star 9
  17. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
  18. HellasLEAF-Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2009
    star 2
    I dunno. It's always bugged me. It was the low point in a brilliant final film from Lucas. What's worse is it was SUCH a pivotal moment as well. A major moment and it was...mmm. not great.

    I personally like the Windu above Palpatine moment and scene. It puts both paths and both figures of the force in front of Anakin and he must choose. It's very well done. But...Anakin goes from "what have I done" Jedi to kneeling and accepting Sidious as his master too quickly, to awkwardly. It was also not particularly convincing from Hayden Christiansen. I am surprised Lucas would use that take in his final cut. I just didn't 'believe' it.
  19. Obi-Chron Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^

    Indeed, nicely put.

    I wonder why -- after Anakin unhands Windu and then Palpatine finished him -- that Palpatine didn't speak more about Anakin's destiny, his first uncomfortable encounter with Windu in the council, Windu never trusting him (even when Anakin 'outed' the Chancellor), and finally Mace not being able to understand Anakin the way that he, Palpatine did.

    At that point, Palpatine could have straight out challenged Anakin to trust him, to learn the dark side, blah, blah . . . and Anakin could then take the plunge a little more deliberately. As he accepts Palpatine's offer, the we see the newly initiated Darth Vader feeling the dark side surge through him, visibly giving him that OT swagger, that heady aura of arrogant 'power!'



  20. anakin_girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah, it does seem like it would be more of a lightning bolt moment. Instead it was Anakin making a series of bad choices. It's hard to define when the actual "moment" is. I would pinpoint the scene in which he and Padme are juxtaposed staring out windows, obviously thinking about each other, and Anakin chooses to ignore Mace and go to Palpatine's office. But it could be said that it happened in Palpatine's office when he didn't save Mace from Palpatine, or in the scene described above.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    It's that, but it is more of a paranoid type of thing. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi will kill him for what the two of them have done. Anakin knows that he has gone too far. Thus he has to kill the Jedi, otherwise the Jedi will kill the two of them. At this point in time, the Jedi kill the Sith rather than try to turn them back. Not even Obi-wan will forgive him for what he has done. And if Anakin is to learn how to cheat death, he has to make sure that Palpatine lives long enough to help him. Get them, before they get you.

    As to Mace, well, he was so wrapped up in the moment that he didn't pay attention to Anakin. He was concentrated on taking out Palpatine, that he was blind to his surroundings. In the novelization, he knows that Anakin is indeed the deciding factor, but he doesn't put it all together until it is too late.
  22. Blur Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4



    IMHO, the "reasons" for Anakin's turn to the darkside by Palpatine is the main weakness in ROTS (and by default the main weakness in the whole SW saga). This has bothered me since seeing ROTS in 2005. Yes, I know that, based on what we see in the film, Palpatine turned Anakin by telling him that he could save Padme if she were to die, and that Anakin couldn't bear to lose another loved one like he lost his mother, etc. (I really question Anakin's strength in the force if he couldn't see how grossly manipulative Palpatine was being at this point, but that's another issue.)

    However, even if you buy that Anakin did believe Palapatine about his being able to bring people back from the abyss (and I guess in the context of the film, you do have to believe this), IMHO it is still a huge stretch to go from this belief (which was why Anakin was so upset when Mace Windu and the other Jedi attack Palpatine) to turning around and destroying everything you've held dear up to that point, i.e. the Jedi in this case. You would've thought that at some point, even after his battle with Mace Windu, Anakin would've been clear-headed enough to stop the destruction - but, he just kept moving forward with this, even after being confronted by Padme and Obi-wan on the lava planet.

    Just my .02.....
  23. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Quite right.

    Not to mention that Anakin clearly knows now that Palpatine is behind the Naboo events and the war, and has designed this to destroy the Jedi and take control of the galaxy.

    Reagardless of the lame motivation, Anakin joining someone he knows to be purely evil and treacherous is really hard to believe : how can he trust him now ?

    Here is the weakest point.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Anakin joining someone he knows to be purely evil and treacherous

    When had Palpatine ever let him down?
  25. starwarsobesses Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2008
    star 1
    When has Anakin ever thought things though? Ever sense his mothers death he has been wanting to find a way to spot death. Notice when Palpatine says that the sith have the power to stop death he says very slow so he can make Anakin knows. It doesn't matter to Anakin that Palpatine is evil. It's that fact the fact he thinks he finally found a way to stop death. I like the scene where Anakin turn to the darkside. I have never had any problems with it.
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