*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.

'Where did you dig up that old fossil?' o_0
I forgot I made threads
Anyway, I do like your train of though HC.
I think that's the thing a lot of people are having trouble with so far with everything. They expect everything to be labelled down in very simplistic definin moments that junp out and say 'Hey! Look! This is that moment!'
But instead, Lucas makes us watch these things, then go back and see it all happen very slowly before our eyes. So subtle in fact, that a lot of people miss out on them.
Although trite, the allusion to missing the forest because of all the tress very much applies here.
Only this time it's more like taking somebody on a guided tour of the forest.
You show them the trees, shrubs, squirrels, owls and such, and when you're done, they ask, 'So wheres the forest?'
'Where's Anakin's turn to the darkside?'
You've been seeing it since AotC

 

Exactly, Wascally. Well said.

HC

 

So many of the outlandish early speculations on this thread can be laid to rest in light of recent spoilers!

I agree that Anakin's "fear" is the key. And we know he fears losing people, he fears the inevitability of change, and perhaps he fears his own weakness/mortality. But what exactly brings this fear to the forefront after the Clone Wars have ended and before he makes the choice to kill Mace? That is still a little bit of mystery to me.

There are rumors that his past choices start to catch up to him. I imagine that after he's assigned as Palpatine's bodyguard, Palpatine tells him that he will reveal Anakin's marriage and the Tusken slaughter to the Jedi, and perhaps also something dark in his past to Padme. (Killing Dooku in a brutal way? Something else?....) As a result, Anakin fears that he will lose his position as a Jedi Knight and that Padme will leave him in disgust. Unless.... he chooses to renounce the Jedi and join Palpatine.

Caught between his Jedi Knighhood, Padme and Palpatine, Anakin chooses the easy way out, eager to blame everyone else (the Jedi, Padme) for his problems.

 

I agree, forever jedi, Anakin has some skeletons in his closet that will be brought into the light of day. Perhaps Padme rats on him about the Tusken Slaughter?

If Anakin indeed is the Kamino File Eraser, I imagine that wouldn't sit well with Yoda and Mace.

HC

 

HC, I have trouble believing that Anakin erased the Kamino files. Could be. But much worse would be the Tusken slaughter and his marriage to Padme - I am certain that Yoda and Mace would be more than a little upset with these two events.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Padme, tired of being married in secret, had told Palpatine about the marriage, hoping he could help in some way? Force Anakin to make a choice between her and the Jedi? Instead, Anakin chooses neither her nor the Jedi, but Uncle Palpatine.

Btw, your sig says: Utapau = BS planet. Are you still cetrain of this? Sounds like Utapau is the planet where Ki-Adi and Plo have their adventure. The BS planet may be different.

 

I agree that Anakin has been turning since AotC. The Tuskan Slaughter was our first sight of Darth Vader.

I personally don't think that the killing of the Younglingswill be motivated by blackmail of any kind by Sidious.

Anakin is going to have to do it of his own free will.

He could make the decision after being deceived in some way, but he will make the decision himself.

 

Btw, your sig says: Utapau = BS planet. Are you still cetrain of this? Sounds like Utapau is the planet where Ki-Adi and Plo have their adventure. The BS planet may be different

I stand by my opinion, for now, of course.



HC

 

Ani is a very impatient dude, we all know that. I think Padme is going to croak, as Leia said in ROTJ of her mother "she died when I was very young", just not in Episode III. I think what finally gets Ani is his thirst for power, he impatience and Palpatine definitally playing a huge role too. Ani said he is going to be the most powerful Jedi ever...and he does fullfill his promise, but unfortunatally, this all happens after the fight with Obi, the damage is done and we now see the most powerful force wielding individual to ever use the force, albeit in the form of Darth Vader. I hope we get to see Vader kick the CRAP outta everyone...DARTH RULES!!!

 

I don't personally think Ani doesn't do much to kill Padme. If you recall in ROTJ, Palpy is lighting up Luke and then Darth throws Palpy to his lovely death. I believe that this is what happens to Padme for rebelling against Palpy after he declares himself
emperor and lights her up also while Ani is looking on.

 

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but during the AOTC scene and in bits and pieces of the film, what does Anakin want more besides Padme? He wants more power. He's becomes greedy and believes that if he had more power, he could do all these incredible things. Now how does Count Dooku fall to the darkside? I believe, and I have no idea how he did, but he was offered this awesome power by Palpatine. There might be parts here and there in the movie where Palpatine will offer a way for Anakin to get more power and become the most powerful jedi ever, just like Dooku says he is in AOTC and just what Anakin wants in AOTC.

So in order to get this power, he'd have to leave the Jedi Order (which I believe he does, wasn't that a spoiler?)so then Palpatine starts to teach him the ways of the sith.

In my head I always envisioned this as a thing that tears up Anakin inside. He has the chance to have more power, or he can be a good guy...because ultimatly he does want to stay good and be heroic and all that.

You guys might hate me for this but I always thought that Anakin would be forced one way or another to kill Padme to actually show that he's serious about getting this power. Now I am glad that he's not gonna intentionally kill Padme because that's the one thing that holds him from completely turning. Padme is Anakin's voice of reason.

So with her gone, kind of like in the Lord of the Flies, chaos begins and there is no order. There is no order in Anakin Skywalker and completly flips out. He tears that room apart using extreme HATE inside of him. He hates not only HIMSELF for believing he killed Padme, but then this sparks his hate for the Jedi. So the Jedi hunt/purge begins, and well then it explains the killing of the younglings and anyone that gets in his way.

Now if only Jar Jar crossed his path then we can wrap everything up nicely, lol.

 

Exactly, Anakin wants more power. He had no power as a slave, and then his power was "held back" by his master Obi-wan, from his point of view.

I found this online and its source is some LucasArts product:

Very soon, however, Anakin became overanxious. Obi-Wan wasn't teaching him fast enough and he wanted more. A meeting with Senator Palpatine quickly turned to a more personal nature as the small politician described to Anakin the wonders of the dark side and the incredible power it holds. Anakin saw the advantages such power could afford him and his pregnant wife. It didn't take much to convince Anakin to abandon Obi-Wan's teachings and embrace Palpatine, soon to be the Emperor, as his new master.

This makes perfect sense to me. And when I was a little boy I remember asking my mom why Anakin turned to the dark side. Explaning it best she could to my younger self, my mom told me that the bad guys offered Anakin money and power, and in his greed he became Vader. Simple. Why not?

 

But will Vader be wearing the helmet and breathing apparatus in Ep III or will he just be like Maul and Palpatine and wear a dark cloak?

 

As we all know GL has a tendency to repeat themes. In ESB, Vader invites Luke to join him and together they will destroy the Emperor and ?rule the Galaxy as Father and Son?. Palpy obviously detects this in Vader because he questions Vader about "whether his feelings on this matter [Luke] are clear". Later Palpy invites Luke to destroy his father and replace him at the Emperor?s side.

In AOTC we see the cycle beginning to repeat. Dooku invites Obi-Wan to join him and ?together we will destroy the Sith? (presumably referring to Palpy alone). So if GL sticks to the pattern Palpy will detect this ambition in Dooku as he did in Vader, and will look to get rid of him and recruit his next apprentice... Anakin. In this way GL is suggesting something about the Sith / Sith Apprentice relationship as untenable in the long term... a weakness. Palpy actually displays his lack of trust when he says to Luke "Your faith in your friends is yours" [weakness]. In actual fact he is displaying his weakness or the weakness in the Sith path in their lack of trust. There will be few occassions in Episode III when GL can create positive angles. This is one opportunity as it is reminding everyone that the darkside is not invincible and that in the end good will triumph.

So I think GL will stick to this themes and patterns and use the final scene in ROTJ as a template for Annakin?s final conversion to the darkside? Sidious will use Dooku to work on Annakin the way he used Vader in the final scene of ROTJ to try and convert Luke. You know, Annakin duals with Dooku in front of Sidious but unlike Luke, he will actually kill Dooku and take Dooku?s place at Palpy's side. This suits the Emperor because he kills off Dooku who is plotting to kill him anyway and he recruits the new talent he?s been working on in Anakin. One assumes that Palpy is aware of the prophecy and would feel a lot better having Anakin on his side.

If this is what happens think of the extra tension it creates back in ROTJ?. When you go back to ROTJ it would be like this whole new pressure on Luke to resist the temptation for history to repeat itself and for him to take up as the Emperor?s new right hand man.

Of course I am only talking here about the final flip to the darkside. Much of the discussion in this thread about Anakin's imnpatience and Padme and others will still apply in the lead up to this point.

 

I always thought Padmes death was intrigal to Anakins turning but its likly he does not kill her intentionally or accidentally (atleast as far as I am concerned). Dooku is not going to kill Padme certainly and I dont see there being room in the film for him to injure her so she dies later. Palpatine wont kill Padme in front of Anakin either as Anakin would chose not to serve him. What that leaves is Palpatine sending an assassin to kill Padme and Anakin finding out about her death or Padme dieing similar to the way Anakins mother did (I always saw that scene as forshadowing). Anakin witnesses Padmes death and kills her attackers and somehow is unable to turn off his hatred and anger.

 

Patience is not one of Anakin's strong points. He's extremely impatient in AOTC for recognition, for the trials, for the chance to prove himself, and to become POWERFUL.

Patience is a virtue, an important one that Anakin lacks.

By the time the Clone Wars are over, Anakin is going to want some recognition for his heroic acts. When he doesn't get it, look out! He's tired of waiting for power. He's wanted it most of his life. That desire for power and control are his Achilles Heel.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but so far from the spoilers we have seen, Anakin turns initially away from the Jedi for a "lack of recognition from them". I am sure there may be a bit more to that, but essentially that is the jist of it (unless you all can tell me something I dont know).

Now, that "illusion" of power would be fine...if Anakin didnt start to be a nice little caring kid we all saw in TPM. From what we saw in AOTC, he makes a "promise" to his dead mother that he wont "fail again".

Now here is the thing...would it have been better if Anakin chose the darkside because he thinks he failed Padme (a hypothetical situation of course). She dies in EpIII, and that is the last straw. To him, he couldnt protect her (from his POV...even it was out of his hands) by being a Jedi. Maybe she died at the hands of Dooku (of course a hypothetical situation) and then seeing that...Anakin lost it. He embraced the darkside and then killed Dooku as a result.

Then Obi comes up in the aftermath, realizing what has happened...looks at a dead Padme, a dead Dooku, and the look in Anakin's eyes. Then a conversation starts between them and Anakin says he is leaving the Jedi cuz he couldnt protect anyone he ever cared about. He then believes the darkside is stronger.

Imagine the conversation they could potentially have had. Anakin would blame Obi and the Jedi for holding him back. Being a Jedi couldnt protect his mom. Being a Jedi couldnt protect Padme. Hell, even Anakin could throw something in Obi's face like Obi couldnt help Qui-Gon survive...ouch! And then the duel breaks out because Obi cant let Anakin join the darkside and all...

What do you guys think of that? I think its pretty neat. Seeing Vader say in the OT that the darkside is indeed that powerful...this situation kinda forms that belief in the audiences mind that that is why he came to think like that. Instead right now we have Anakin just joining cuz the Jedi didnt give a rats arse about Anakin defeating Dooku.

Comments?

 

Anakin felt he failed because he wasn't powerful enough - thats what he said at his mother's gravesite. Thats what comes out of his mouth in every little rant.

He embraces the Dark Side and leaves the Jedi for one reason - lust for more power.

 

I know. I am just providing an alternate reason, a "parallel universe" situation.

What do you think?

 

Possible Reason(s) Anakin turns to the Darkside

1) Death of Padme (and their child(ren))

2) Feeling betrayed/held back by Obi-wan (and Jedi Council)

3) Choosing not to be limited by "the prophecy of the chosen one"

- If Padme doesn't die, then you can throw out number 1. But if she does die, and if Anakin feels even remotely responsible, whether he is or not, would be enough for him not to want to be Anakin anymore. He didn't have the power to save his mother, then his wife dies...that would be enough for any man not to want to live his life as he was.

- I think number 2 will be an underlying theme throughout since we all know that there is a huge deul between Obi and Anakin in Ep III, even if this isn't the MAIN reason he turns, it is a good piece of the big puzzle.

- Number 3 can be thrown out if Anakin never learns that he was part of a prophecy. If Lucas wants to add fuel to the already growing fire of Anakin's fear and anger, then I could see him finding out about prophecy and being all upset. Especially if he gets kicked out of the council for marrying Padme, he will be full of questions, like "if I'm so important, why would they kick me out?" or "do they still know more they aren't telling me?" and this all goes back to the holding back/betrayal part of the big picture.

***
Regardless, it will not just be ONE thing that turns Anakin to the darkside. If we can agree on anything, it is that Anakin's turn will definitely be a combination of many reasons and possibily other reasons that we might not even have thought of. This will truly be a dark film and Anakin's life will crumble before our eyes as he becomes Darth Vader.

 

This will truly be a dark film and Anakin's life will crumble before our eyes as he becomes Darth Vader.

I'm torn when it comes to how I feel about watching Anakin's life fall apart. On the one hand, I dread watching him mentally and emotionally disassociate himself from the Jedi, as well as having to see his relationship with Padme go down the tubes. And I know the duel will bring me to tears. But, on the other hand, I can't wait to see the gradual transition from tortured Anakin to evil Vader, as he kills Dooku and annihilates the separatists council, not to mention the horrors we will possibly see in the Jedi temple. I have so many conflicting feelings about this movie. One minute I'm saying "No, Ani, no!" and the next I'm saying "Rage on!!". Does this sound crazy?

 

This will truly be a dark film and Anakin's life will crumble before our eyes as he becomes Darth Vader.

I'm torn when it comes to how I feel about watching Anakin's life fall apart. On the one hand, I dread watching him mentally and emotionally disassociate himself from the Jedi, as well as have to see his relationship with Padme go down the tubes. And I know the duel will bring me to tears. But, on the other hand, I can't wait to see the gradual transition from tortured Anakin to evil Vader, as he kills Dooku and annihilates the separatists council, not to mention the horrors we will possibly see in the Jedi temple. I have so many conflicting feelings about this movie. One minute I'm saying "No, Ani, no!" and the next I'm saying "Rage on!!" Does this sound crazy?

I agree Darthette. Part of me certainlly will wish Ani becomes a Jedi Master, but since he must live as Vader and fulfill the prophecy.

I know I will be in tears at the end of EPIII.

 

Is it me or does the information leaked so far concerning Anakans transformation seem to be missing something? It feels to me that lucas made a point in the TPM of letting everyone know that Anakin was overly mechanicly gifted. Again in AOTC he sets up a scene in which the grief of his mothers death is combined with a speach not only about how exceptional he is at fixing things (mechanical) but that in the future his goal is to some day be able to stop death.

These things have had me under the inpression that it was Anakin himself who in episode III would have constructed if not the entire Vader mechanical suit but at least some of the technology to create it.

This would not only help to tie EP III into the other prequils but it also would add yet another layer to the character of Vader. Think if Anakin had built such a life sustaining device with his mother in mind only to find Sidious entrapping him within it to sustain him as an instrument of evil.

How is it Lucas has overlooked this, even after setting it up so well in the first two prequils? Or is it that info on the Vader suit has not reached us yet perhaps?

The fact that Grievous apparently uses some Vader type life suport combined with what little info we have of the actual transformation leaves me to believe the suits origins will not only not be of Anakins design, but most likely hardly touched upon at all in the film which I feel is a mistake, especialy seeing as how the first two prequils make such an effort to talk about his mechanical skills, if not for this then for what?

If anyone has any further thoughts or info I'd like to hear about it.

 

All jedi children are taken from their parents and taken to the jedi temple at birth.

Obi Wan will take luke to the temple.

Anakin will want Luke back.

Obi Wan wont give Luke to him.

Anakin will spend the rest of the trilogy searching for Luke.

We will all be able to see both points of view. And it will tie into what Lucas said about Anakin's flaws of conceit,attachments, and possesions. We all know Obi Wan takes Luke. We all know before the end of Ep 3 anakin wont be with the jedi. We all know the younglings are kept at the temple. Its so obvious its been overlooked.

 

i dont know if someones said this as im only on pge 2 of the forom but padme will not die in episode 3 or if she does it will be at the end.

if u remember in ROTJ leia says that her mother died when she was yong and on the Just The Facts page it says that the twins are no more than a month old.

 

Ok, this is a semi-old 'spoiler' from Carl Cunningham. I was reading it today and thought it would tie things together nicely ... here's the spoiler:

Remember, Palpatine is very good at pushing peoples? buttons which are particularly sensitive and effective. He knows that of particular sensitivity to Anakin is the issue of mortality & death. It is in this scene that much of the mystery surrounding the Jedi ?spirit? existence will be explored. During this exchange, Palpatine will tell Anakin that he will share with him a way to cheat death, to virtually shed his mortality, and possibly even help others close to him to do the same. Essentially, he will be promising something to Anakin that the Jedi could never offer. Palpatine will play on the significance of Shmi?s death to Anakin, and will portray the Jedi in an uncaring and inept light. Palpatine will essentially be assuring Anakin that, were he to ally himself with Palpatine, he would never again have to endure such a loss. This is something, surely, that the Jedi would never be able to offer.

So I'm thinking this happens early in the film and Anakin doesn't make his choice at this point. The duel with Obi-Wan happens later in the film (EP spoiler):

When Padme faces Anakin on Mustafar, Anakin is incredibly upset with her when he realizes she brought Obi-Wan with her. She led Obi-Wan right to him. From Anakin's point of view, he trusted her and she betrayed him. Anakin force-chokes Padme and throws her aside (where she also hits her head.) Then, the duel begins amidst the corpses of the slaughtered Seperatist leaders.

Then later (EP spoiler):

Medical droids turn the remains of Anakin Skywalker (now named Darth Vader) into the classic trilogy cyborg Darth Vader we know and love. His reveal is very "Frankenstein." (He lays on a slab that slowly rises up when he is completed.) When Vader rises, his first desire is knowledge of Padme's fate. Palpatine calmly and cooly tells him that she is dead and that he(Anakin/Vader) killed her. His sorrow and regret result in an awe-inspiring physical manifestation of the dark side of the force. The entire room buckles and twists away from his anguished screams. Every droid in the room is obliterated. Palpatine has to muster all of his powers just to shield himself from Vader's wrath. Vader's echoed scream segues directly into the next scene: Padme's funeral procession.

Padme's death is the straw that breaks the camels back. Remember what Lucas said about Shmi's death:

AOTC DVD Commentary:

GL: This is obviously a very pivitol scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inablility to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his posessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate.

AOTC DVD Commentary:
GL: The key part of