Official thread: hey wait a minute, a Jedi doing force choking???

The_Dark_Overlord, Luke isn't the chosen one. His role was to redeem with father so that Anakin can bring Balance back to the Force. When Luke redeemed Anakin, Anakin went back to the Light Side, and killed the other Sith. Balance of the Force means that there is no Dark Side. There is no Sith. Anakin destroyed the Sith Order. But Luke redeemed him so that he could fulfill the prophecy. Lucas made this very clear in an interview in the 2000 release of the original trilogy.

We also discussed in another thread that Luke did indeed choke the guards, but he did not kill them.

 

How hard could it be? If you can throw objects, why can't you squeeze someone's throat?
It's not like it's Force Lightning.

How do you know? Have you ever tried it? I think it's a very different thing for a Force-user to telekinetically throw inanimate objects around and for them to interfere with another living thing. In fact, by that criterion, Force lightning is easier, because it only entails manipulation of inanimate objects which are less "sacred" in the eyes of the Force.

 

"I think it's a very different thing for a Force-user to telekinetically throw inanimate objects around and for them to interfere with another living thing."

But they are essentially the same action. Throwing objects would involve pushing an object in one direction. In a Force Grip, you are "pushing" the walls of the esophagus towards each other. (Then again, it could be argued that Vader, and Luke for that matter, were "grabbing" objects with the Force grip, and then "throwing" them.)

"Force lightning is easier, because it only entails manipulation of inanimate objects which are less "sacred" in the eyes of the Force."

What exactly is being manipulated? Electrons in the air? I would wager that Force Lightning is more in line with "raw Force energy" than any of the other Force powers that we've seen, which would explain why it can be ravaging to the manipulator (over time) as well as the manipulatee (more immediate effect )

If Force lightning were easier than telekinesis, then Luke would have used it against the wampa instead of grabbing his lightsaber.

(Of course, this is all based on speculation, or is it?)

 

Ya know its a possibility that Luke didn't choke them at all. He could have just made them think that they were being choked, a hallucination. We know the Jedi can do this and we don't see those guards perish like poor Antilles.

 

While I agree that he could use the Jedi mind trick to make people "think" they are choking, he doesn't seem to use the mind trick against the Gamorrean guards at any time. Perhaps theirs is another species that is immune to mind tricks? (regardless of how stupid they actually are.)

 

I think the debate as to whether or not he KILLED them is irrelevant.

" Use thr force for Knowledge and defense, never offense"

Now we see that Jedi do not even use force throw WHILE IN COMBAT ( which could be argued as defensive ).

But those guards hadn't even attacked Luke yet. The only defense you could argue would be that it was a pre-emptive defense. And guess what that is called? OFFENSE!

Im not condemning Luke for this. I really dont see anything wrong with this. He also fights with anger and fear. This is how he is the balance himself IMO.

I just think its interesting that he goes against a direct tenant that Yoda taught him.

 

Surely he could have just put a mind trick on those guards.

 

I think what people need to remember is that Luke did not have the same style of intense training as the jedi who were educated at the academy therefore had to teach himself to a certain extent. If he found out he could do something pretty nifty he'd probably do it like anyone else would.

 

Surely he could have just put a mind trick on those guards.

How do you know Gammoreans are vulnerable to mind tricks? We don't know much about mind tricks, what species they work on, etc. We know they can have an affect on the weak minded, but that's about it.

 

It also from a certain point of view was self-defense. The Guards weren't coming over to be friendly they were coming to try to stop him by any means necessary as Jabba had instructed them.

 

I've read this before many times, but to me it has always looked like he Force Pushed them uncounsious.

It's not very easy to determine. Vader force choked someone over a transmision without even having to make a hand gesture. In ANH he did a hand gesture.

I didn't look at it in terms of good or bad when I watched the movie before. Now it looks more to me that it shows the Dark side tendencies in Luke. He's using the force for aggresion. Also he force pulled a blaster to shoot an unarmed Jabba, and he threatened Jabba to free them or die!. So it shows to me that for Luke, there is no good or bad use of the force the only thing that matters are his friends. That is until he's in Endor when he chooses to leave his friends to face Vader and the Emperor.

 

...........MAYBE...we're looking to deeply into this. Luke must quietly make his way into Jabba's Palace to confront Jabba. A little force throw my hand and wave my magic wand here....a little jedi mind trick there...and he's in. MAYBE GL didn't put a whole lot of thought into him making two gestures to some pigs and then having them fall over.



I suppose it could symbolize him being the one who brings balance and shares both traits...since he wore black and all...but still....that's a stretch.

 

Continuing over from the other thread, I've recently had a new idea about this, inspired by this thread in the NS forum. We criticize Luke for Force-choking the guards because we expect him to be a Jedi like the Jedi of the Old Republic, but what if he's not supposed to be like the old Jedi? The old Jedi order was wiped out and had been steadily losing power over the Force for years before it happened, so obviously it was doing something wrong. Perhaps the Force could only be truly balanced when both the Jedi and the Sith were gone and a new line of Force users able to use both the dark side and the light side was started by Luke.

Look at the symbolism around Luke. He calls himself a Jedi, yet Force chokes these guards and attacks Vader in anger in RotJ. He wears a black tunic, but one flap is folded down to show the white underneath, in stark contrast to other Force users who wear either all dark colors or all light colors. He's neither light nor dark!

The Jedi realized, albeit too late to save themselves, that the distinction between the living and the unify Force was arbitrary, so Yoda never taught it to Luke. I don't think it's that much more of a stretch to say the light side/dark side distinction might be arbitrary as well and an ideal Force user should be able to come to terms with both sides.

 

I agree, Luke wasn't supposed to be like the majority of Old Republic's Jedi.

He was supposed to be more like Qui-Gon.

Qui-Gon was in touch with the "living Force" constantly, while the other Jedi were looking to the future. Qui-Gon was "focussing on the here and now."

While Qui-Gon was a Jedi, he wasn't allowed on the Council for some of his "radical thinking," yet looking back, he seems to be the one who was right.

I posted part of the theory dealing with midichlorians and the living Force in this Saga Forum thread, but I'm still looking to complete my theory in one large post that I can make as a thread.

Anyway, while Qui-Gon kept his focus on his surroundings, the other Jedi looked at the bigger picture too often.

One of the large differences between the Old Replublic Jedi and Luke's generation of Jedi is the whole marraige/committment thing, one which could go both ways.

In light of the Old Republic Jedi, it is seen that your downfall could come from being too committed to someone, for if they die or are captured, it could alter your thought process, causing you to want revenge on those who did it.

But then you look at Luke's Jedi, and some of them are already married, and Luke gets married in the process. In this way, committment is good, for those strong in the Force committed to each other can learn more about the Force from each other's own experience, and if one is lacking in a certain area, the other can complete as the family.

I guess what I'm trying to say (and I'm tired so I'm probably not making any sense, sorry if I'm not) is that Luke is being trained to be the type of Jedi that Qui-Gon was. Qui-Gon and Tahl pledged their lives to each other, and she died shortly after. Qui-Gon of course went to look for the killers, but he didn't stay focussed on the situation for an extreme amount of time. He found the killers, took care of them, which was part of the mission anyway, and went back to Coruscant to mourn for a while, then he came out of it.

Qui-Gon focussed on different aspects of the Force than most Jedi did, and he ultimately ended up becoming more powerful, as he was the first Jedi to learn how to retain identity after death, even though we only hear his voice in Episode II. I strongly believe that it has something to do with the living Force.

And like I said, if I'm not making any sense let me know and I'll try to clear it up.

 

"I've read this before many times, but to me it has always looked like he Force Pushed them uncounsious.

It's not very easy to determine. Vader force choked someone over a transmision without even having to make a hand gesture. In ANH he did a hand gesture."

Is that why they grab their throats and make gurgling sounds? ?

Luke is imitating his father. The parallels are intentional, just like Luke losing his temper with Vader, as well as losing the same hand.

"Look at the symbolism around Luke. He calls himself a Jedi, yet Force chokes these guards and attacks Vader in anger in RotJ. He wears a black tunic, but one flap is folded down to show the white underneath, in stark contrast to other Force users who wear either all dark colors or all light colors. He's neither light nor dark!"

Agreed.

 

i feel luke did not know that was aggrseive use of the force ,he mainly taught himself teh force and really had no formal training he did not kill the gaurds ,plus he was un armed so he did what he had to,but luke is not a jedi of the old reupblic so he had diferrent methods in my veiw of using the force ,than te jedi of old.

 

"he mainly taught himself teh force and really had no formal training he did not kill the gaurds"

1) Yoda taught him.
2) We haven't seen Dooku kill anyone, so I guess he doesn't use the Dark Side either? ?

 

i am not saying that but what is proof that he used the drak side for that move that all i am saying so explain to me then

 

There was alot riding on Luke, the future of the Jedi and the Galaxy. I'm sure he didn't intend to kill the guards, but if he had, I think it would have been justified.

 

Ends justifies the means, huh? That's a Sith belief.

Tarkin felt it was necessary to destroy Alderaan to find the hidden rebel base, remember?

 

Ends justifies the means, huh? That's a Sith belief.

Tarkin felt it was necessary to destroy Alderaan to find the hidden rebel base, remember?

Tarkin wasn't a Sith, remember?

 

I was wondering if someone would point that out.

I was considering his representation of the Empire, which was an adjunct, if not tool, of the Sith Order.

Palpatine clearly had no qualms building a device that would destroy planets at his mere whim.

 

It is sometimes necessary to tap the dark side, if it means getting back your buddy. Jabba and his boys only negotiate when you bring a hand grenade.

 

Yet Luke learned his lesson at the end of ROTJ. He stopped using the Dark Side when he realized it meant killing his father. He even refused to use it against the Emperor, when such an action meant certain death.

This is the point that the "choking scene" was meant to convey. Even a little Dark Side use can be bad.

 

But still, his rage and frustration helped put his old man down and disarm him. In other words, do what you have to do, grapple with it later.