*OFFICIAL THREAD* In-Depth Discussions of RotS

Yes that would be quite a revelation for someone
who (which most people have) only has seen
Darth Vader and recognise the name to
realise... "Oh My God! It´s him!"

 

Revenge of the Sith Review

The wait is finally over. Star Wars Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith finally hit theaters on May 19 to resounding success at the box office, which may or, in the case of the previous two prequels, not be proof of a movie?s quality. In this case though, it would seem that the box office is a somewhat reliable indicator.

Don?t get me wrong, this movie is far from flawless, (and I use far quite loosely), with the first and most obvious offense being the dialogue. George Lucas has once again written a screenplay more fit for a grade school drama class than for what is possibly the most pivotal entry in the Star Wars saga. Take this curious exchange for example:

Anakin (to Padme): You?re beautiful.
Padme: Only because I?m so in love.
Anakin: No, it?s because I?m so in love with you.
Padme: So love has blinded you?

Cringe-city to say the least. Just like Clones the love scenes in this movie are cluttered with stuff like this which no human being has or ever will say. (It?s a wonder Lucas ever got married. Just imagine the pickup lines he?s used when he hasn?t had months to edit and revise them. I mean, can?t you already see a typical night in the Lucas house:

Wife: Georgie, I made dinner.
George: I have a bad feeling about this?

Then again, he did get divorced. Hmm.)

The writing does sparkle at times, most noticeably in Palpatine/Anakin scenes in the hands of the wonderful Ian McDiarmid, which brings us to the acting. Let me preface my comments by saying that the acting in Sith is better than ?Menace? and ?Clones? combined. This movie benefits from the fact that McDiarmid finally gets to step to the forefront and take a leading role. While he goes over the top at times, for the most part he is right at home as the evil, manipulative Emperor. Ewan McGregor, looking more and more like the venerable Alec Guiness, turns in another good performance. Hayden Christensen, who was god-awful in ?Clones?, nails down his character this time. No, his performance wasn?t great, and maybe it wasn?t even good, but it was adequate. Anakin Skywalker is a torn, confused man, and Christensen portrays him as such. Even Yoda has taken major strides since Episode 2. In ?Sith? he presents a serious challenge to Gollum as the most real and believable CG character to star in a live-action movie. Natalie Portman also makes an improvement, though she barely has any screen time and her character does absolutely nothing in the movie. In the end, I think the cheesiness that permeates some parts of the movie are not the result of the acting this time. The writing is at fault, as well as the overuse of blue screen, which puts a huge strain on the actors.

My only other problem with this film is the pacing. There is something to be said for a movie that hits the ground running and never stops, but there is a fine line between an aggressively told yet accurately delivered story and a sloppily told one, and this movie comes dangerously close to crossing that line. After a second viewing, I realized the pacing wasn?t as fast as I had originally thought, but the story is told a little sloppy, especially the second half hour, where Lucas seems to forget any semblance of creative editing, and simple wipes are used to transfer us at breakneck speed from scene to scene.

I read one review that said that ?Sith? is a collection of brilliant moments juxtaposed with silly ones, and it?s very true. Throughout the first hour of the film, Lucas seems to find his grip and lose it from scene to scene. But from the moment Order 66 is given, Lucas finds his footing and maintains it. The last hour is the reason the entire prequel trilogy was made. This is it. Obi-Wan vs. Anakin. Anakin becomes Vader. The Republic becomes the Empire. The Jedi are destroyed. Yoda is forced into hiding. The twins are born. These are moments that are almost biblical to Star Wars fans, and just seeing them on the screen is cause for celebration. Seeing them executed well after the horribleness (is that a word?) of the prequels, is almost shoc

 

This is actually something that bugged me. I watched the classic trilogy back then and always thought that Obi-Wan was just an old man who failed to stop Darth Vader or who was too sure of himself to see that he wasn't good enough to train Anakin. Even nowadays when I re-watch RotJ or ANH, this feeling is still there.

However, in the new trilogy we get to know Obi-Wan as a cool guy and now in RotS he shows that he is capable of many, many things. He and Anakin were *friends*, real friends that could rely on each other. It makes Anakin's downfall worse and one of the most moving scenes in RotS was the one when Obi-Wan gets back to the ship (after the duel) and he buries his face in his hand.

So, finally, I've come to like and appreciate Obi-Wan. Did anyone else have the same problem?

 

"To cheat death, is a power that only one has achieved. But, if we work together, we can discover the secret." Stated by Sidious during the knighting ceremony of Darth Vader.

What if Sidious isn't talking about Plagieus there? What if he's actually referring to Qui-Gon? Remember, for three films, Sidious has engulfed the Republic and the Jedi in the shroud of the Dark Side. The Jedi can't really see anything.

If Sidious' control and knowledge of the Force is so great, that he's actually knows that Qui-Gon has found the secret to immortality that the Sith crave so much.

Hence the reason the Qui-Gon scene was cut. Maybe, with Yoda stating to Obi-Wan what he states, maybe that's the answer and the revelation....

I could be totally reaching but this occurred to me after watching the film again yesterday. See, I can see the pros and cons for Lucas cutting the Qui-Gon scene because, in a way, it does affect the Original Trilogy to future generations who will probably watch the films in order. So, I can understand why he cut it. But at the same time, because the Qui-Gon reference was so vague in Attack of the Clones, I feel that for the general audience, having Qui-Gon speak is almost neccessary. There are good points on both sides.

But, what if Palpatine is actually talking about Qui-Gon in that above statement? That would put a twist on things and make Palpatine even more than a bastard than he already is. But, if it is Qui-Gon he's talking about, then this statement is a total lie:

Is it possible to learn this power?
Not from a Jedi.

Call me an idito if you guys think I'm reaching but....

 

Any takers....?

 

It's a good argument Jumpman but I still think he's referring to Plagieus. I think that cheating death and retaining your identity are two different things. When you cheat death your physical self remains alive, when you retain your identity your physical self dies and you're spirit lives on (Like Qui-Gon). If that's the case, Palpatine was talking about Plagieus. I personally think they're different.

 

That's a good point. There is a clear distinction but still, this maybe be Lucas' reason for cutting the Qui-Gon scene because in a roundabout way, it does give a clear answer as to why the scene was cut...but again, you make a good point.

I also don't think it's out of Palpatine's realm of control to tap into what the Jedi knowledge. Sort of like a crossover thing. Because clearly when Anakin was in the Council, Palpatine, through the Force, talked to Anakin.

It's possible that Palpatine knows about Qui-Gon's discovery.

 

he was talking about Plagieus. and even then I think he was still spinning his little lie. I dont think any Sith ever came close but Palps knoew knew what Anakin wanted, needed, to hear, and told him . Qui Gon discovered the way to retain your identity in the force enough to contact those in the living, Yoda and Obi built on that knowledge during there exile and depending on what you believe, Anakin was taught that soon after he died or he just WAS.. since he was made of the force.

 

I guess it all comes your definition of "cheating death" and "immortality".

In a sense, the Jedi do cheat death in the Original Trilogy because eventhough they are dead, Obi-Wan has the ability to form a physical spector of himself and talk to Luke as if he's actually there. So, in a way, that is cheating death and immortality at the same time.

Listen, I for one think that I might be reaching to but I wouldn't put pass Lucas if this is his line of thinking when it comes to explaining that whole situation. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if he popped up on the DVD commentary and states that when Sidious says that line of dialogue that he's referring to Qui-Gon and not Plagieus.

Because when you think about it, Yoda shows no evidence to Obi-Wan about this revelation. The audience does get anything either. But there's the clear running plot about cheating death and immortality. And, I personally believe that all of this could be in the realm of Palpatine's control over the entire situation. There is a slight, slight possibility that he knows what Qui-Gon has achieved.

But again, I still think I might be stretching it....

 

Three really nice connections back to Episode I was:
1. To once again see the gift that
young Anakin gave to Padme.
2. To hear Palpatine mention some
things about the midichlorians.
3. To hear Yoda talk about that
old master Qui-Gon Jinn.
It ties the whole PT together don´t you think?

 

QUESTION ABOUT ROTS: Does Anakin believe that Obi-Wan might be the father of Padme's child...?

Why?

1. Anakin cannot detect the presence of his own child when she tells him that she is pregnant.

2. In one of Anakin's premonitions, he sees Padme asking Obi-Wan to help her...and then he guesses that Obi-Wan has been over to her apartment and asks Padme why Obi-Wan was over there and what did he want...

3. When he sees Obi-Wan at the top of the ramp at the end of the movie, he yells at Padme, "YOU'RE WITH HIM!".


All this seems to show evidence that only Anakin believes Padme cheated on him with Obi-Wan, but everyone else knows the truth...that Anakin is the father. But it does provide an interesting aspect into Anakin's paranoid and deranged mind as he goes to the dark side...

 

QUESTION ABOUT ROTS: Does Anakin believe that Obi-Wan might be the father of Padme's child...?

Why?

1. Anakin cannot detect the presence of his own child when she tells him that she is pregnant.
no one ever said a jedi could detect an unborn baby..


2. In one of Anakin's premonitions, he sees Padme asking Obi-Wan to help her...and then he guesses that Obi-Wan has been over to her apartment and asks Padme why Obi-Wan was over there and what did he want...
Padme had already asked once if he thought Obi could help. Anakin , though he loves Obi, knows*or thinks anyway* that Obi, if he found out, would go to the council with this news and get anakin expelled. anakin wanted to know if obi had been sneaking around trying to ask questions...no more no less. had nothing to do with padme cheating

3. When he sees Obi-Wan at the top of the ramp at the end of the movie, he yells at Padme, "YOU'RE WITH HIM!".
anakin has turned sith, he has killed all the jedi in the temple. that and the look on obis face makes it perfectly clear obi isnt coming in peace. Padme's "your going to kill him, arent you" has already established what Obi's missoon was. An if padme relaized that you can bet anakin had no doubt in his mind what obi was there for and he believes that padme has brought Obi there to kill him.


All this seems to show evidence that only Anakin believes Padme cheated on him with Obi-Wan, but everyone else knows the truth...that Anakin is the father. But it does provide an interesting aspect into Anakin's paranoid and deranged mind as he goes to the dark side...

nope. GL may have orginally wanted this angle, but I think *fortunatly* he realized it was too much of a soap opera and belittled the love between anakinand padme

 

nope. GL may have orginally wanted this angle, but I think *fortunatly* he realized it was too much of a soap opera and belittled the love between anakinand padme

....and yet Star Wars has frequently been called a space soap opera. And remember from the original trilogy where Han thinks Leia and Luke are in a romantic relationship rather than their brother/sister relationship? Seems as though GL is fond of the "love tri-"angle"....

 

Shikoma posted on 5/30/05 4:28pm

---

[i]nope. GL may have orginally wanted this angle, but I think *fortunatly* he realized it was too much of a soap opera and belittled the love between anakinand padme[/i]

....and yet Star Wars has frequently been called a space soap opera. And remember from the original trilogy where Han thinks Leia and Luke are in a romantic relationship rather than their brother/sister relationship? Seems as though GL is fond of the "love tri-"angle"....


[hr][/blockquote]

the audience knew by that point that Luke was Leia's brother..there was no triangle there.

ROTS is much different. and the main point was that it would belittle anakin and padme's love, which, imo, has to be a true and faithful one for the saga to work.

 

the audience knew by that point that Luke was Leia's brother..there was no triangle there.


...yes, but Han's perspective is not the same as the audience's....just as Anakin's perspective is not the same as the audience's. The audience can tell that there is no love triangle in either situation, but that does not mean the individual character has that same perception....

 

I saw it for the 3rd time today, and it did something to me that I am still in shock over. Padme's funeral hit me harder than the first two times ( grant it I got nearly teary eyed but held through) This time I couldn't handle it . I had to wipe the tears off my face. A 27-year-old male should not be crying from a movie , especially one that he has seen twice already. Mind you Titanci didn't move me at all, nor do I cry at movies, but this time I don't know what happened.

 

I agree! I loved the movie but i thought that there needed to be more that showed the attachment that Anakin had to Padme. In the AOTC the chemistry between the two was strong but I think this movie needed to reinforce the passion to make us really believe that Anakin's change to ultimate evil was because he feared for Padme. Their scenes in ROTS looked like an old married couple... Ho hum... I don't mean they needed to be graphic.. but at least they could've looked like they were in love..

A little love triangle (or the perception of one masterminded by Palpitine) would have made this all the more riveting.

I think that there needed to be a stronger "betrayal" aspect to really cement Anakin's change into Darth Vader. I really think that he needed to feel like everything he cared for had betrayed him (the Jedi, Padme, ObiWan) and the only thing left was Palpitine.

I think that would have made it just that more tragic a story...

 

Their scenes in ROTS looked like an old married couple... Ho hum... I don't mean they needed to be graphic.. but at least they could've looked like they were in love..

That reunion scene in the senate hallway is of course how ALL old married couples act

 

I thought their scenes together in ROTS were great
and that you could tell that they indeed were
truly and deeply in love with eachother.

 

Just a few thoughts for the thread....
I?m only about halfway thru the book so there may be some things I have not gotten too yet.
Please excuse any spelling/grammar errors.... I?ll try to stick to a chronological flow as to not jump around too much so here goes?

The Kidnapping of Palpatine

The abduction of the Chancellor was clearly orchestrated by Count Dooku and General Grievous at the bidding of Darth Sidious. But what exactly was Palpatine?s goal in doing this? We must make a distinction that there is a difference between what Sidious? actual intentions was and what Dooku was led to believe.

From the book, it seems that General Grievous is left somewhat in the dark as to what the plan was. Grievous questions why not just kill Palpatine outright and why must they wait around instead of trying to escape. The book also mentions that Grievous is unaware that Palpatine and Sidious are one in the same. So Grievous probably believes that the Chancellor would be used as a hostage bargaining chip to try and sway the war in the Separatists favor.
Count Dooku?s motivation and what he perceives to be the plan is not quite as clear. Based on the movie, it seems that Dooku is trying to spring a trap to catch the Jedi. Sidious has convinced him that Kenobi and Skywalker will be the ones that will be sent on the rescue mission. The book elaborates somewhat that Dooku?s plan was to help Sidious in turning Anakin to the dark side. This was going to involve the killing of Kenobi, to help push Anakin towards that end. However the book also discussed how the plan was envisioned that Dooku would allow himself to be captured by Anakin. Not sure how this would have been played out that Anakin could be defeated by Dooku yet still end up freeing the chancellor and capturing Dooku. Perhaps Dooku was planning to give a ?remorse speech? after defeating Anakin about how he feels that he has been misguided in leading the separatist movement and that it?s time to end this conflict and offer up his surrender. In both the book and movie it seems very clear that Dooku was expecting to come out of this alive in the end.

Now from Sidious/Palpatine?s view, we know that the plan all along was that Anakin would defeat Dooku and thru his hate and lust for revenge it would be just another screw towards his dark side journey. Palpatine?s clearly did not care about Kenobi and had hoped for his death in the duel, thus wanting to leave Obi-Wan on the ship. He realizes that Obi-Wan is the one most close to Anakin (besides Padme that is). On a galactic scale he also knows his abduction will most likely garner more support in the senate (?those damn Separatists how dare they threaten the Chancellor?) and make the chancellor look to be a more sympathic figure thus cementing the continuation of emergency powers. Ultimately he has to have Dooku and the Separatist movement destroyed/stopped to make way for the Galactic Empire. Palpatine must have had great confidence (or foresight) to think the Jedi would come and rescue him, specifically Anakin and Obi-Wan in order for his plan to work. This is yet another place where Palpatine shows his ability to foresee things.
Just as an aside. While within the saga we see many instances of foresight and prophesy, I don?t think anyone is all-knowing. So while Palpatine does maybe foresee things like his rescue, the Jedi?s turning on him, the rebel plot to destroy the shield generator, Luke coming to Vader. There are still many thing?s he doesn?t know?Yoda surviving, Birth of the twins, Vader?s intentions towards Luke. So that being said not every action he undertakes has to be explained, in my opinion, as going exactly as he has planned. His overall rise to power perhaps, but not every twist and turn to get there.

Lightsaber Styles

From the SW Insider magazine, where I think it first originated, we were introduced to the Lightsaber forms (i.e. Form I, Form II?). In the novel, we are introduced to named lightsaber styles, where are these from? Have they ever

 

Since I can't post a topic right now, I thought I would post it on this thread (it may be on an existing thread already)...

Do you guys think that its strange how much more effective Darth Sidious was in tempting Anakin to the Dark Side as opposed to Luke? Sidious tempts Anakin by appealing to his weaknesses (ie: lust for power, love of Padme, fear of loss, ect.). Sidious tempts Luke by basically telling him that his cause is doomed, in hopes that his anger in the Emperor telling Luke this will turn him to the Dark Side. As intelligent a man as Sidious is, he should have known that Luke had been fighting a lost cause for several years, and there was no way he would turn against his friends because his cause was so dire. Why not appeal to Luke's love for his attachments or friends? Sidious may have been more effective if he had told Luke that if he turned, his friends will be safe from the Empire's clutches, and peace will reign across the galaxy again. He could have also appealed to Luke's love for his father, and how his powers are the only things keeping Vader alive, and the Dark Side could be used to make Vader whole again, without the need for machines. I still don't think this kind of temptation would have worked on Luke, but it is more consistent with Sidious' brilliant manipulations in ROTS.

 

To what extent Palps was faking. I say not very much. Did you see how much he was smoking. He was in very definite distress.

I'm not sure now. He smoked alo

 

"The turn was just rushed and the seduction was illogical. The movie clearly tries hard to establish that Ani goes to palps for advice. Fine. Palps is pumping Anakin's ego in the beginning of the film. Then BEFORE Anakin ever mentions anything about Padme dying, Palps says to him "Uhh....have you ever heard of the legend of Darth plagueis???" suddenly Palps is offering advice about saving one's life. Oh, how convenient! Ani should have been completely suspect of Palps at this point."

Did you even watch Return of the Jedi? If so, then you should already know that the answer is already provided to you.

"Do not underestimate the powers (of seduction) of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate, you will." ~ Yoda

"Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor." ~ Obi-Wan

Yoda and Obi-Wan are warning Luke to bury his feelings, or the Emperor will prey upon this to turn him over to the Dark Side. The same thing happened to Anakin, and they realize this. Anakin couldn't bury his feelings (Palps knew about the Council asking him to spy on him...about Padme...amongst other things) in the presence of the Emperor, making him easy prey with which to convert to the Dark Side. Simple as that. Done and done.

People just don't understand these movies. And, ironically, they're the ones that bitch the loudest. Heh.

 

"See that's the thing about the turn. If he was so consumed, then why is he already not taking Palps serious when he talks to Padme? And why is he crying for her if he is all evil?

The turn was just rushed and the seduction was illogical. The movie clearly tries hard to establish that Ani goes to palps for advice. Fine. Palps is pumping Anakin's ego in the beginning of the film. Then BEFORE Anakin ever mentions anything about Padme dying, Palps says to him "Uhh....have you ever heard of the legend of Darth plagueis???" suddenly Palps is offering advice about saving one's life. Oh, how convenient! Ani should have been completely suspect of Palps at this point. "...endquote


The point of the film was to show Anakin as a conflicted person. It just made his fall more unbearable to see for many. It wouldn't have the 'heart' as the critics stated, if it wasn't shown. I prefer this, than showing another one dimensional villain. I like characters who have more layers to their characters, as do the rest of the audience.

Besides, vader crying over Padme was shown to seal his fate to the darkside. The very thing Anakin tried to prevent, he caused himself. Its the irony of the whole thing. It shows that once you start down the dark path, it will consume him, and it did. It was also there to show that there was still a little bit of Anakin left, there. Once he discovered that Padme was dead, that small part that was Anakin was gone, up until RoTJ.

Padme told Obi Wan that there was still good in Anakin. Well, she was ultimately proven right, as was shown at the end of Return of the Jedi.

 

for all you people and reviewers around, i hear that the writing is clunky and certain things make you cringe. That seems to be the words used by 95% of people.

I ask you...Where is your originality. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Talk about getting on a bandwagon.