*OFFICIAL THREAD* Jedi Disappearing/Jedi Ghosts

Though I'm going to kick this off with my own particular theory on the subject, it is open to any and all theories and discussion.

Some of the quotes I am using for my argument include dialogue deleted from AOTC, which may not turn out to be of any merit, but I believe give some insight into Lucas's thought processes.

YODA
                  Only those who have turned to
                  the Dark Side can sense the
                  possibilities of the future. Only
                  going through the Dark Side can we
                  see.

This is the catalyst for my conclusions on the subject of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin reappearing as ghosts.

Consider this: no other Jedi disappeared before dying prior to Obi-Wan's death in ANH. Why then, should we consider this a Jedi skill?

OBI-WAN
                  Has Master Yoda gained any insight
                  into whether or not this war will
                  come about?
 
MACE WINDU
                  Probing the Dark Side is a
                  dangerous process. He could be in
                  seclusion for days...

It was while in meditation, trying to probe the dark side, that Yoda sensed Anakin's pain and heard Qui-Gon's voice. This was the first intimation Yoda had that there was life for the Jedi after death.

Ben has managed to keep his identity after he became one with the Force. One of the things he was doing on Tatooine besides watching over Luke was learning how to keep his identity after he became part of the Force.
- Lucas, The Annotated Screenplays (Laurent Bouzerou), 1997

This is something that one must prepare for. It is not something that automatically happens to a Jedi, nor is it something Jedi have common knowledge about. It is a skill that must be learned. Hearing Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC and realizing there was some life for a Jedi after death was the first sign for Yoda that retaining one's identity after death was a possibility. It then becomes an issue of learning how to do it.

One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere in between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that. We don't ever get to see how he does it.
- Lucas, The Annotated Screenplays (Laurent Bouzerou), 1997

Since this happens off-screen, it seems there is a certain amount of it that will be left to speculation. But I believe we may actually have some evidence of it in the movies.

In ANH, Vader saw a Jedi disappear for the first time. Stepping on Ben's robes after he believed himself to have killed his old Master, Vader showed us that this was something new to him. His later dialogue shows us that he may have had some idea of what Ben was able to accomplish.

VADER: "Obi-Wan has taught you well."

It is as if Vader believed Ben to have still been training Luke even after death. Vader may have realized that Ben was able to retain a part of himself after death.

Which takes us to the next movie: ESB. It is never explained, in the film, what Vader was doing in the meditation chamber on his Star Destroyer, nor how he was able to learn how to retain his own identity after death. My belief is that seeing Ben disappear was, for Vader, akin to Yoda hearing Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC. He realized that some sort of life after death was a possibility, and set about learning how to do it. What he was doing in the meditation chamber was akin to what Ben was doing in the desert all those years, as Lucas says, that we will never get to see.

The Force, by its nature, retains the spirits of all Jedi after death. Only Force users who have meditated and learned how to retain their identities after death, however, will reappear as ghosts after death. I also don't believe it is a skill strictly limited to good

 

I agree with your analysis and theory...but I would also like to add the notion that a jedi must be at peace when he dies...now I believe that this is true for all that we have seen so far do the jedi trick...Obi Wan I believe knew that Luke would be able to bring his father back...*I am of the school that believes Obi Wan never gave up hope for Anakin because he knew who Anakin was and he knew that a small part of Anakin was still alive in Darth Vader*...also I believe that because Obi Wan has disappeared Yoda was also brought to peace because he also believed that Luke could redeem his father...and of course Anakin was finally at peace because he was able to conquer the darkside and save Luke from the Emperor...Now with Qui Gon I am not fully sure...but I believe that he too was also in peace because he thought he believed he found the Chosen One and he knew that Obi Wan would train him well...just some of my thoughts

 

I agree with you about that. Because remember when Luke was talking to Vader in ROTJ and he said something about coming back.. Vader said "Obi-Wan once thought as you did."
I always thought Vader meant until he died, as if he thought it but Vader proved him wrong

 

Just MY opinion, but, I think we only "hear" Qui-gon because he wasn't at peace at the time of his death.
Yoda was at peace. Anakin died slowly at peace and Ben stopped everything to "meditate" his way into peace.
I think it's like spirits in OUR world. Some stick around because they were ready and know they have things to do, some just hang around in "poltergiest" form, i.e. voices (Qui-gon). The more at peace, the more you are ready to come back.

 

that could be also true...but remember we still have another movie that Qui Gon could possible appear as in a ghost...so just for that fact I believe that he died in peace...but I agree with your theory that he was not at peace

 

I think Jedi only stick around if they have stuff to do still. Not necessarily being at peace... but having unfinished business - like ghosties. Because Qui-Gon had the whole train anakin fulfill the pophecy thing... Obi-Wan had Luke to watch after. Yoda and Anakin both had to see Luke become a Jedi...

then there's always the theory I like that says u need to have a connection to a skywalker in order to retain identity. Because all of the Jedi who became ghosts were connected to or were skywalkers

 

This is such a bizarre concept that the Jedi go through the Dark Side of the force to see the future - and then this leads to finding out about the afterlife.

Maybe Ep 3 is really going to explore a whole different understanding of the force and of mixing the 'good' side with the 'bad'.

It does change the perspective of a few scenes in the OT. When Luke is being trained by Yoda in the ESB is he tapping into the Dark Side when he senses that Han and Leia are in trouble?

Plus there is the "once you head down the Dark Side forever..." line which seems to fly in the face of this a bit.

So if you wanted to take an abstract view of things, this could mean that Qui-Gon tapped into the Dark Side of the force from time to time during his life (possibly taught to him by Count Dooku) and learnt other aspects of the force that generations of Jedi had previously left alone because it (the Dark Side) had always ending up consuming a Jedi in the past.

Is being a ghost then a selfish use of the force that is considered part of the 'Dark Side' because it consumes the force in order to appear and not become one with it.

Maybe that is why Qui-Gon says to Obi Wan "you are already a much wiser Jedi than I" (or something to that effect), because he was dabbling in the dark arts that he knew had the potential to consume him.

There could then be the argument that the Jedi do not perhaps know as much about the "living force" as the Order believes they do, having only concentrated using the good side?

 

I believe that the disappeaing Jedi trick will be explained. Lucas has changed his mind in the past. I don't have the quotes to back me up, but I am sure Lucas has since said something like, the line from ANH where Obi-Wan says "if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" would be a key moment int he prequels and would be explained

 

I like your thought process, dahrian, especially with regard to Vader's meditation chamber in ESB.

It's a bit hard for me to explain how I feel about it, but I believe Qui Gon was able to speak from beyond the grave because he was a student of the "living" force. I took the living force to be a balanced force , both the yin and yang, light and dark. I'm not saying that Qui Gon was a student of the dark side, but it's more like realising that you can't have the good without the bad. A jedi can't truly understand the light side of the force without at least respecting that the dark side is, and always will be, both present and necessary.

Qui Gon's understanding led Yoda to study/meditate on the subject. This led to Ben's understanding and then to Anakin's understanding. Qui Gon may not appear as a ghost because he had less of a true understanding of the force's nature. Let's say he was luckily intuitive.

With regards to why only the dark side can see into the future, let me make a quick comparison to Dune. I believe that Frank Herbert makes it quite clear that prescient vision (being able to determine the future) leads only to stagnation and defeat because it boxes you in to the safe path. I see this as a direct comparison to the dark side, which also leads to decay and stagnation. It may make you more powerful in the short term, but will ultimately cause one's defeat. Those who get consumed by the dark side's power have forgotten that the living force has two sides.

What I think it boils down to is that ability to retain one's spirit after death happens when one gains full understanding that the force is made of two interdependant parts - light and dark. They are simbiant sides of the force, just like flesh and midichlorians need each other for existence.

Too confusing? It's late and I don't drink coffee after eight o'clock anymore...

 

I"m not here to disagree with any of these theories, as I believe they all have merit. My comment concerns Yoda's use of the Dark Side to see the future. My understanding is that the only reason this was necessary in AotC is because of the cloud the Dark Side had caused due to Palp/Sids use of it. Without the Dark Side clouding things, it wouldn't be necessary to tap into it to see the future. That's just my understanding.

--later--

 

i like the "at peace" theory. i think ill follow that one. if they were at peace, they could focus to come back

 

I have read theories about how its only Jedi who are connected to the prophecy and the chosen one. As if his power pulls them back, when they talk about a vergence in the force with Anakin, one meaning could be a meeting point in the force, good/bad, this realm/next.

 

I like all the theories. I would be glad to hear any of these theories made it's way into episode III somehow.

 

Which takes us to the next movie: ESB. It is never explained, in the film, what Vader was doing in the meditation chamber on his Star Destroyer, nor how he was able to learn how to retain his own identity after death. My belief is that seeing Ben disappear was, for Vader, akin to Yoda hearing Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC. He realized that some sort of life after death was a possibility, and set about learning how to do it. What he was doing in the meditation chamber was akin to what Ben was doing in the desert all those years, as Lucas says, that we will never get to see.

I have to say, that's a pretty good theory. It does make sense when you think about it but wouldn't it contradict the popular idea of Anakin actually "Learning to stop people from dying"? If it was the first time that Vader saw a Jedi disappear it would mean that somebody, in this case Obi-Wan, had learned it before him which does not agree with the theories of the AOTC quote.

 

a great topic, dehrian!

 

dehrian, I really like this theory, and I can definitely see Lucas putting it to good use. But, what happens if when Mace dies in EpIII, Lucas has him disappear? That would ruin the whole concept!

 

STARLOG: And isnt that Qui-Gon Jinns voice we hear during Anakins attack on the Tusken Raiders who killed Shmi Skywalker?

LUCAS: All I can really say is that you'll find out in [episode 3]. If you thought really hard, you would probably be able to figure it out, but it really is a set-up for the next film. Its connected with the whole ability to be brought into and become a part of the Force, but still be able to retain YOUR ability which, up to this point, Anakin couldn't do. We talked to Liam about [recording new dialogue], and we went back and forth [about it]. This [dialogue] is something we already had [from Menace]. Next time will be a little more complicated.

So not only will it be explained in E3, but chances are Qui-Gon will be the one to explain it, or at least help them understand it ...

 

I'm of the opinion that Qui-Gon will appear in EpIII to explain all this.

 

I'm guessing that Qui-gon IS Sifo-Dyas.

 

In episode III will we also learn that only somebody that is a master of the force can see jedi ghosts? Because at the end of RoTJ nobody saw the ghosts except Luke. Hopefully this is explained.

 

ItWasntMe,
i think youre right

let me add that the meditation chamber was not only used for meditation but also healing vader's "burns".

i do believe yoda will explain to us the jedi disappearing/ghost trick in episode three. qui-gon will then appear to obi-wan and it will be no suprise. the ghost of his former master will then explain how he dabbled to closely with the darkside and he is partially to blame for this war (fully to blame for ordering the army).

this is probably one of the things that im most excited to see revealed in episode three. it has dumbfounded us for years and now it will finally be explained!

 

Could Qui-Gon Jinn's style of "the living force" have anything to do with him being able to come back?

I don't remember any other Jedi devoted as strongly to that philosophy. Practicing that style of being a Jedi got him in trouble and that is why he wasn't a Council member.

Maybe that is why it has taken this long for any other Jedi to have figured any of this stuff out...????

 

This is a great theory Derhian, something which I myself had started a thread about some time ago.

Meditation is the key.

Remember what Qui Gon did immediately before fighting Darth Maul?

He dropped to his knees and started to meditate.

He did not dissapear when he was killed because he did not know how to but inadvertantly he meditated enough to be able to contact Yoda during AOTC when Yoda was meditating.

If we remember just before Obi-Wan was 'struck down' by Vader what did he do?

He dropped to his knees and started meditating.

 

Well, he didn't drop to his knees, but he did start meditating.

 

You get the gist!

Think about it this way, the more you meditate the more in tune you are with the Force.

If you mediate regularly and die while in meditation you become one with the Force and are able to retain your identity.

Perhaps it's like praying, it's said if you pray everyday etc then it will benefeit your connection with God?