*OFFICIAL THREAD* Jedi Disappearing/Jedi Ghosts

Let's re-examine the facts, shall we?

Firstly, we noted in ANH that Obi-Wan had prepared for his death, knew that he would become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine", and his body disappeared upon death. His death was not natural, he was killed. His force ghost manifested first just audibly - on a few occassions, and then visually several times as well.

So Obi-Wan:
- Had prepared for his death.
- Disappeared upon death.
- Manifested as a force ghost audibly first, then visually.

Then we have Yoda in ROTJ. He too disappeared upon death, although rather more slowly and peacefully, and it appears he too was expecting to become one with the force ("earned it I have"). Yoda then manifests visually.

So Yoda:
- Had prepared for his death.
- Disappeared upon death.
- Manifested as a force ghost visually.

Now we come to AOTC, where Qui-Gon Jinn's voice is clearly heard by Yoda during meditation. It's important to note that apparently Anakin did not hear Qui-Gon's voice. Qui-Gon was clearly aware of what Anakin was doing and was attempting to communicate with him, but was unable to do so. We have no evidence to indicate that Qui-Gon knew of the possibility of force ghosts.

So Qui-Gon:
- Had not prepared for his death.
- Did not disappear upon death.
- Manifested as a very weak force ghost, unable to communicate at will, but able to be heard by a powerful Jedi meditating at the time.

We now come to Anakin. Anakin was taken by surprise by Obi-Wan's disappearance upon death. Therefore he cannot have been aware of the possibility of force ghosts. His body did not disappear, but was burned. However, he appears as a very clear visual force ghost - and when he does, looks at himself somewhat surprised.
So Anakin:
- Had not prepared for his death.
- Did not disappear upon death.
- Manifested as a force ghost visually.
- Was initially surprised when he appeared.

There are some very clear inferences that can be made from the above facts:
- Obi-Wan and Yoda knew what they were doing. They had prepared for their deaths and fully expected to possess the power to retain their identities after death. Obi-Wan communicated at will with Luke; Yoda never had the need to, but it's a fair assumption that he too could have done so had he chosen.
- Qui-Gon Jinn somehow stumbled on the ability to retain his identity in the force, although not having prepared for it, he was unable to communicate at will. His voice could be heard by Yoda, and this awakened Yoda to the realisation of the possibility of force ghosts, thus prompting him to begin learning the technique for how to achieve this feat.
- If we are to focus only on Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda, it would appear that there is a correlation between an individual's disappearance, and their subsequent power as a force ghost. That is to say that the powerful force ghosts (Yoda and Obi-Wan) disappeared upon death, whereas the weak force ghost (Qui-Gon) did not.

The reason for Anakin to be a force ghost has at least three explanations as far as I can tell:

1. After witnessing Obi-Wan's disappearance, and thinking about his dying words, Vader puts two and two together, and realises that Obi-Wan is able to retain his identity beyond death. He has in fact achieved what Anakin himself wanted to - the ability to stop himself from dying.

He therefore sets out to try and learn this technique on his own, and partially succeeds. I say partially, because he clearly does not disappear upon death (the commentary now clears this up), however as we know from Qui-Gon, this does not necessarily mean that the individual was not able to retain identity beyond death. Anakin, as the chosen one, with a high midichlorian count, was able to remain a powerful force ghost despite not fully mastering the technique.

Alternatively, it can be argued that his body did not disappear, because he was already dead. He had died when Anakin Skywalker died, hence the ghost appeared as younger Anakin.

2. Anakin did not need to learn any techniques to retai

 

dr_funkenstein

Very good....Very good.

Someone had to put the facts together one of these days.

 

k..thsi is the third time I myself have posted this..and I know at least two other times it has been posted...

In the feature-length audio commentary, Lucas vaguely addresses the issue, explaining Anakin learned -- as did Obi-Wan and Yoda -- to retain his "original identity" -- before he was resurrected as the black-masked master of evil (a sequence that will likely cap off next year's Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.)

Anakin,Obi and Yoda ALL know by the end of ROTS....ALL of them....

 

Well, okay, then it's time to post what Lucas actually says in the audio commentary during the funeral pyre scene in RotS:

"This little sceen where he burns his father's body was'nt originally in the script but I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, and letting go of his father. And even though later on as we get to the end of the movie as he joins the Force he is able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda who learned how to join the Force at will and retain their identity. But it was his identity when he died as Anakin Skywalker."

It looks like Lucas is saying that though Anakin didn't disappear on death, he managed to appear as a Force ghost because Obi-Wan and Yoda helped him to. This also explains, I think, why his Force ghost is mighty surprised at himself. And wears clothes that Anakin never would have chosen himself!

 

well..now he is not making sense..which is it???

did he learn BEFORE...or AFTER??

 

One question no ones asking is how Anakin learned this because from what I can tell from the spoilers about Revenge of the Sith is that Anakin and Obi-Wan are separated throughout most of the film...who teaches Anakin this technic?

 

it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda who learned how to join the Force at will and retain their identity. But it was his identity when he died as Anakin Skywalker."

I think that means Obi-Wan and Yoda showed him after he died when he met up with them in Jedi heaven

EDIT: F_J, I think you mean ROTJ instead of ROTS

 

I guess it's possible that Anakin learned the technic from Obi-Wan but it's something that's mentioned but never shown on screen....GL's comments on the DVD are interesting.

Yet, it seems that's one of the main points in Revenge of the Sith is a scene where Obi-Wan learns this technic that is crucial to their overall plan for the future since the present is looking very bleak for them.

It's probably also possible that each individual learned how to do this act themselves...but to me that might be a stretch.

 

It doesnt look like Anakin knows about this. When he kills Obi-wan he seems shocked that he disappeared. He has to step on the cape to make sure.

 

FORCE-KEEPER F_J, I think you mean ROTJ instead of ROTS
Ah... that was a Freudian slip..... my unconscious mind obviously wants to listen to GL's commentary on the RotS DVD!

I think GL is saying that Anakin never learnt how to do it. He never knew it could be done. He is very surprised when Obi-Wan disapperas in ANH as well as when he himself reappears in RotJ! Obi-Wan and Yoda help to retain his identity before it sort of floats away on the huge river of Force!

 

Perhaps DV is suprised in ANH because he doesn't think OB1 is powerful enough to achieve this?

If he knew about it before then.

I think its unlikely he knows about the issue altoghether and is just suprised, to me the idea of how the two trilogies come together is the most exciting aspect of the speculation.

 

Maybe this holds a clue.

Vader and Luke are on their way to the throne room, when suddenly Ben appears in their path. Vader pulls out his saber; Ben explains that he has come to save him, that the Emperor wants to destroy him. If Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld and Ben will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force. But Vader won't listen and tells Luke to move along. Ben disappears.

-- Laurent Bouzereau, The Annotated Screenplays

 

DT421, although I wouldn't challenge the veracity of your quote, GL has been known to change his mind...

...from time to time. And then change his mind again. So that provides little to go by.

The most logical as it stands today (DVD canon), is that

1) Anakin didn't learn or know about the technique and is suprised when OB1 dissapears.

2) Anakin's body didn't join with the force (dissapear) but was burned like QGJ

3) Anakin is surprised that he has returned (Return of "the" Jedi). He is THE jedi, THE chosen one.

 

Ok I skiped a few pages here so this might have been brought up but let me know what you think anyway.

without repeating what was already said on how yoda, ben, and anakin appear as ghost we already assume why and makes perfect sense! It was brought up the Jin could possibly might not have been at peace. so you would wonder why was he not at peace, right? I am sure this has been said 1000 times but could he be the one that made the order for the clones on Dookus behalf and if so that leads one to believe the possibitliy of him help putting the shroud out for the darkside. I dont know! but there is something fishey with jin in my OP. Be easy on me guys!

 

The quote that DT posted above, is Laurent Bouzereau talking about the rough draft of ROTJ. Obviously it was George's original idea that it be Obi-Wan (and possibly Yoda) that save Anakin's identity before he becomes one with the Force.

If he changed his mind about that in the mean time, and decided that it was actually Anakin that retained his own identity, then based on the new ROTJ DVD commentary HE HAS CHANGED IT BACK TO HIS ORIGINAL PLAN.

This is his current thinking, and it is based on whatever his plans are for identity retention in ROTS.

Yoda and Obi-Wan are the ones who save Anakin's identity.

It is my contention that we will hear the two Jedi talk about this in Episode III, because I believe that it was their plan to get The Chosen One back.

But that's just me.

-JR

 

Also JR, it might help to explain Anakin's (Hayden's) rather confused look when he first appears next to Obi and Yoda. He does kind of look about, like "What the hell am I doing here?" Perhaps, because Yoda and Obi study up on it, they also know a way to help Anakin himself.

 

Not if anyone has brought this up, but I was checking out the Insider #78 pics, and it looks to me that in the Jedi Council photo, that Ki-Adi-Mundi is a ghost. Other folks are saying he's just a hologram, but he is sitting in his chair full-sized. I know that holograms can be large (ESB, TPM, etc...) but he wasn't all blue, he had some color to him and there are no transmission lines.

Thoughts?

 

He is a CONFIRMED hologram, not a Force-ghost. He's remotely reporting in to the council just like Obi-Wan did from Geonosis and Kamino.

 

Thanks Sape,

Who confirmed it? I hadn't heard that before I saw the pic.

 

In TESB, Obi-Wan appears to Luke to convince him not to abandon his training. 2 things strike me about this scene:

1 - Obi-Wan says he cannot interfere with his fight with Vader - why? He helped Luke destroy the DS and told him to run immediately after his death. What was it about the first encounter that prevented him from helping? Was it just that Obi-Wan didn't want to tip Vader's hand about his still 'existing' (in which case disappearing infront of him was a bad move).

2 - Obi-Wan appears to disappear as soon as Luke leaves (though he can still be heard talking to Yoda). Yoda is clearly lit, so it would stand to reason if Ben was still there he would be visible. I assume he fades intentionally.

Which means force ghosts have only manifested themselves in Luke's presence and can only be seen / heard by Luke. Leia didn't see what Luke was looking at in the end scene of ROTJ. Also, all these people died in Luke's presence.

So can force ghosts appear at will? Or can they only manifest themselves infront of skilled force users (which would explain why Leia didn't see any of them). And if they can only manifest infront of force users, why? Is their ability to do so drawn from the user?

 

Pablo confirmed it a few times during his Q&A session and one of his updates.

 

Ok when obi-wan was struck down he was prepared for
death, yoda and aninkin had excepted death when they
died and when Qui-Gon died he had not prepared for death
he had been using the force to better prepare himself for
battle, when palpatine died being a Sith master he exploded
with one last blast of anger.

 

Upping for the good of humanity.

 

The answer to this riddle is simple enough. The solution is a buddhist one. It has to do with clarity and enlightenment. Only those who become one with the force is able to reach the state of nirvana...

 

http://www.qui-gonline.org/links.htm


Click that link and check out the last link in the Qui-Gon links section.


"Qi Gong - The ancient Chinese art of chi, or life force, manipulation. How-to article"


...sounds like a definate tie in or atleast root for his name/force ghosting for episode 3.


What do you guys think?