*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by RebelScum77, Nov 8, 2005.

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  1. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    The Official Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion Thread v3.0 ZERO TOLERANCE policy.

    The RotS mods have issued a zero tolerance policy for this thread. This means that any time a rule is broken, especially flaming, baiting, and trolling, the offending user can be banned with no warning. Length of the ban will, as always, depend on the severity of the offense as well as past history. The vast majority of users have no problem posting in a civil manner, so if you feel you are unable to control yourself, please post elsewhere. The easiest way to look at it is discuss the FILMS not the FANS. Repeat offenders may be barred from posting in this thread entirely. These rules are being set in place in order to keep this highly popular topic open to the users who wish to discuss it in a calm and rational manner.

    We will watch this thread very closely, will not not hesistate, and will show no mercy.

    Try and have fun, but be very conscious of what you post.

  2. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    yuppie!!!!

    hope i'm first.
    i promise to behave...
  3. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    well after watching and analyzing the fight scene, i'd have to say that mace beat palps fair and square. his use and control of vaapad helped. sidious was over matched.
  4. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    and to launch this thread, i hope d-s will put some quotes from the rots commentary track..
    tht would be very helpfull.
  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Though my first thought was always "Palpatine must have thrown the fight, Mace Windu can't beat the friggin Emperor!!!", I no longer believe this to be the case.

    Mace Windu definitely won the lightsaber duel. He was simply better than Palpatine.

    Had Anakin not arrived however, I imagine that Sidious would still have come out on top, since there would be no reason for him to feign weakness and he could have blasted Mace's lightsaber out of his hands (if he can do it to Yoda, he can do it to Mace) and fried him.

    Unless of course Mace can absorb Force lightning, but since he appears to have a great dependance on his lightsaber to reflect it in that scene, I'm somehow doubting it.

    So, taking pure lightsaber wizardry into account, Mace beats Sidious. Taking everything else into account, Sidious would eventually defeat Mace - as far as the scene is concerned however, yes, Mace won.
  6. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    This is going to be interesting! Who is going to be the first to step out of line?!!

    I think I will stay out of here after reading the initial post.;)

    I shall watch this thread with great interest!


    Mace lost. [face_plain]
  7. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    DVD Commentary lines would definitely be cool.

    I personally feel that Mace did legitimately disarm Sidious, that Sidious faked how weak he was to try to fool him, that Sidious' first lightning attack wasn't able to beat Mace as he'd hoped (I'm also in the "Sidious' face was damaged by the lightning" camp here) but that Anakin's interference gave him the opening needed to destroy Mace.
    As for not knocking Mace's sabre out of his hand with lightning, well, compared to Yoda Mace has a lot more mass and of course a larger sabre. Not so easy.
  8. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    i tend to agree with everythig you said damon.
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    This debate was settled in the v2.0 thread, as soon as we got the commentary track.

    Mace disarms Palpatine, always did, always will - the only part of the scene that was reshot was the part with the lightning and that was the part where Palpatine starts feigning weakness because the lightning fails.

    Not once has any Lucasfilm employee even approached vaguely hinting at Palpatine taking a dive prior to the lightning.
    Not once...
  10. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    palpadious was beaten by mace. force lightning was deflected and didn't work the way sids wanted. it's only until anakin interviens that sids had any advantage. if not for anakin mace would have killed him. sidious got punked.
  11. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But had Sidious not given up with the lightning who is to say that if he continued that he wouldnt have overpowered Mace?

    Sidious gave up the lightning as he saw that it would benefit his plans more - not because he was in pain - he was faking.

    So my view is that Sidious would have blown Mace away but gave up to reach his goals.
  12. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4

    MS, good to hear from you again. as always, you refuse to go down, dont you? man, all of the evidence is clear. mace windu was in position to end the threat....he had sids beaten, it was useless to resist. had anakin not shown up, we can assume anything, but the facts on screen and according to what has been stated in the DVD commentary as well as the "making of..." sids was toast, duke!!!!!
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Good to hear from you too LM. Its been a while...

    Anyway, all the evidence shown does anything but contradict the idea that Sidious could have eventually blown Mace away. Mace was struggling with the lightning and Sidious gave up to benefit his larger plan.

    Anyway, im away for a day or two with work so I will continue this matter later.

    Keep it clean guys and gals.

    MS
  14. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5

    And again, very nice to say what "might" have happened - here's what Lucas says IS happening:

    So, no, not really.
  15. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4

    All of what you just said was conjecture. but i digress, we can always say "what if..." but the question of "yes or no" has been answered i believe. couldda, shouldda, wouldda.....no matter, mace windu had him in his seated and upright position, preparing for the "sith hereafter", whatever that may have been.
  16. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, inevitably, this thread re-opened immediately entrenched in the old question posed by v1.0 and v2.0.
    "Did Mace lose?", sadly, was not that question, ITG.

    We all agree Mace lost.
    Lucas has confirmed that Palpatine's faking did not start until after his lightning failed - maybe we should move on to discussing some other aspect of this scene....?

    :)
  17. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    So, whereas Sidious is able to blast Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, he is unable to blast Mace's lightsaber out of his hands? I think that's unlikely.

    Mace could not have ended the threat, he was not the Chosen One and it's his arrogance that led to his death.

    It's a shame, but he was generally depicted as a grouchy old man throughout RotS, I had very little sympathy for him.

    But yeah, still no doubt that Mace won the lightsaber duel - even though Sidious looked to be dominating at the start, the tables turned and Mace got the upperhand. Mace thinks he can end it and Sidious gave him the opportunity to (it was a bit late if Anakin decided not to help him), but had Anakin not been there at all, there was unlikely to have been a real opportunity for Mace to kill Sids.
  18. simon-the-ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2005
    star 1
    I've always wondered (sorry if this has been brought up before) but after Palps cuts down Saesee Agen and Kit, why wouldn't Mace take one of their sabers and fight with two?
  19. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    So, whereas Sidious is able to blast Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, he is unable to blast Mace's lightsaber out of his hands? I think that's unlikely.
    what's unlikely about that?

    imo it actually seems a lot more unlikely that sidious set his lightning on "just-barely-what-mace could-handle" level...
  20. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    This is how it goes-

    Mace beat palpatine in the saber duel (I always thought this, really i did) [face_worried]

    Palpy tries to kill Mace with the lightning but Mace reflects it back.

    Palpy then starts the faking act and makes it look to Anakin like Mace is really hurting him. He forces Anakin to intervene by doing this "Too weak" act...


    Now if Nick Gillard hadn't started all this 'Palpatine is the master of every form with a saber' and 'your a sucker if you think you can get the better of him' business, then we could have avoided some of this confusion.

    The fact is, Gillard is talking nonsense. Sidious just isnt all that flash with a saber. Yoda held his own against him with a saber-its a shame the Yoda vs sidious fight was edited in such a way where we don't see why sidious put his saber away (personally i think he was overpowered in the swordfight with Yoda.



    If you go back to the OT, Sidious makes an interesting remark about lightsabers-

    "Ah yes, a Jedis weapon" - or something to that effect.

    Sounds like he is making out that he doesn't use one-never has.

    Anakin/Vader never witnessed Sidous using a saber on-screen, so perhaps anakin is under the impression that the emperor doesn't need one as he is 'all powerful'. The fact is, Sidious is keeping quiet about this as he aint much cop with a 'laser sword'.


    [face_thinking]


    EDIT: I posted - I think I will stay out of here after reading the initial post

    I lied. [face_peace]
  21. Mr_Fantastic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2004
    star 2
    Mace had received a warning from the Force on his mission on Dantooine, I think, to learn how to fight without a lightsaber. Unfortunately, he didn't take it to heart. Like all those Masters who didn't listen to the Force signs in the past, concerning the greater prophecy as described in Luceno's "Labyrinth", he also remained ignorant. To both things. He could do naught without the blade, not because he was weak in the Force (far from that!) but because he was too surprised. And even though the room was small, I think Palpatine could have "enLIGHTNENed" him. I do not believe he was faking. No, he lost. But then, he didn't do the "paying the price for one's lack of vision STORMing punishment" because he either liked his office to remain clean, presuming he would beat the Jedi easily, or because he found out that only a fool uses the Force against a Vaapad Master, because if he did, he wouldn't find a saber in his head, but rather get beheaded.
    "You have lost".
    Mace wants to arrest the guy.
    "Frying sequence"
    Mace wants to kill the guy. He freaked out. Girl.
    There. I tried to discuss the characters only.
  22. Mace_Windolene Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2005
    star 1
    It's been confirmed that Mace legitimately disarmed Sidious, and it's been confirmed that Sidious was originally trying to kill Mace with his lightning. I don't think we need to discuss this any more.

    The only thing in question now is "If Anakin had not stepped in, could Sidious have turned the tables?"

    I don't think so. Mace had Sidious pinned, and Sidious would exhaust his lightning before Mace's lightsaber's power cell failed. This notion that he could've knocked Mace's lightsaber out of his hand because he did it to Yoda is nonsense. It's been confirmed that Mace legitimately overpowered Sidious. Yoda couldn't do this. Mace is a better warrior than Yoda, at least with a lightsaber.

  23. Mace_Windolene Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2005
    star 1
    Here, Here! =D= =D=

    I don't think Gillard has a clue - he just likes the sound of his own voice.

  24. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I think Gillard was right with all of his statements about the Emperor. He discusses the characters fighting abilities with Lucas so it must be true that the Emperor is a master of every style and that you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. The latter statement means that the Emperor is undefeatable.

    Lucas' quote doesn't even eliminate the possibility of Palpatine faking the saber duel. He could have been overpowered because he allowed himself to be overpowered. The Emperor is unbeatable because he can kill anyone he wants with lightning.

    He tried to kill Mace, but made the lightning weak and ineffective in the beginning so that Mace would block it and Anakin would step in. Palpatine's ultimate goal of killing Mace was postponed once Anakin came into the room. After Anakin turned, Palpatine proceeded to accomplish his goal of killing Mace.

    This interpretation best fits the way the Emperor was initially presented to us- as someone who was leagues ahead of everyone else because of unstoppable force lightning. This is also consistent with Gillard's statements.
  25. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    Well said, Mace_Windolene. Your post says everything that needs to be said at this point. Those who think Sidious could have destroyed Mace without help are just walking on thinner and thinner ice.
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