*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

This, I agree with - I just thought you meant that Palpatine's "plan" was for Anakin to see Mace as a traitor and agressor, which doesn't make sense considering what he actually shows Anakin.

Not just the bunch though - he's the strongest, with Yoda, of the entire Order. One of the two Jedi that can give Sidious a run for his money - Palpatine's arrogant, but he's also realistic. He only fights when he absolutely has to. Heck he even tried to run out on the Yoda fight - with Mace, he only starts appealing to Anakin when he fails to destroy Mace with his lightning. Which is my point, the fact that he bothered to throw lightning at Mace shows a lot - it shows that he wasn't, in the slightest sense, "playing". He started clowning around when he pretended to lose his powers.

I think George's view on Mace plays an important part here - the fans may feel Mace doesn't belong with Yoda, but George does. The movies make Mace out to be second to none - and George consistently puts Mace on the same level as Yoda and Palpatine.

 

There will be records of the Jedi entering the building as there were of Anakin enetring the Jedi Temple. Anakin would know thats where the Jedi went so it shows him that Sidious wasnt lying about that. Apparantly Sidious had been presenting evidence to the Senate all day so I presume there must be something concrete.

Its not even the showing of the evdience thats important. Its just key thats its there anyway to back him up if question. And if he went about it the wrong way it could backfire and have evidence against him. The Jedi HAD to go and arrest him to be sure his plan would work.

This is from the script:


PADME: The Chancellor has been elaborating on a plot by the Jedi, to overthrow the Senate.

BAIL ORGANA: That's not true!

PADME: He's been presenting evidence all afternoon.

But the fact is that if you watch Sidious' rise to power its actually 'legal'. He is given his power. Thats why he had to have the Jedi come and try and arrest him.

Not because he may show up. Simply because he can then say - "They came to my office, tried to kill me, so I killed them".

See above regarding this. He has been presenting evidence. There will be records. Its not something the audience has to see. We know what the Jedi did, we know Sidious set that up so its clear he will have ways of proving it.

And then he see's that Sidious hasn't lost his powers and witnesses him kill Mace. It was all about Padme.

He never assumed that. It was all about Padme!

I disagree. That moment is simply there because of the way the scene goes. Anakin, if he wants to save Padme, will have to join the dark side anyway. That moment was put in to add drama as Anakin was originally standing around doing nothing. Anakin was always going to end up turning because he was too weak to let go of his fear of losing Padme. The edit just brought forward the point he turned - not the reason why.

Yes - it became the key moment. But that doesnt mean it was always planned to be or that Anakin wouldnt have turned anyway. It was just there because Anakin was always going to be in this scene and he needed to be involved.

 

Exactly

Again, note the things he says to Palpatine after Mace is killed - there is no, "You were right all along"; no, "Bastard, you tricked me!" etc etc.

There's a "Just help me save Padme, I can't live without her. I will do anything that you ask" - as long as he has that craving, Palpatine has his number.

 

Rebel: Not a good idea.

 

It is likely, but not 100% set in stone, that Anakin would turn anyway if the situation with Mace and Palpatine were different. The decision to choose Padme is not an easy one for him, Lucas goes out of his way to show Anakin's anguish at it. He is still trying to be a good Jedi. He's pissed that Palpatine is Sidious and wants to kill him, but doesn't because it's not the Jedi way. He says "what have I done?" right after Mace dies. He cries on Mustafar. His struggle has been clear since AOTC. Having to choose between the Jedi and Padme is probably the very worst situation he could ever be put in. But if circumstances were different... maybe Palpatine didn't ever show weakness, or Anakin witnessed him murder the posse... etc. he *may* not have turned in the fashion that he did. George clearly wants that one moment where he HAS to choose, where he has no other choice- Padme or the Jedi, that his the reason why he turns, in his mind there actually isn't a choice. The situation is set up the way it is for exactly this reason.

Anakin doesn't immediately blame Palpatine because he is so distraught. He just helped kill Mace, he sided with a Sith Lord. To him there is no going back. He immediately jumps into self protection mode and tries to justify what he knew was wrong. He throws himself into believing Palpatine totally. That's the only thing he can do, or risk near insanity. He holds on totally to "saving Padme" which in turn becomes an obsession with the notion of power in general. But it is an emotional struggle for him, hence tears on Mustafar.

But this is getting a bit off topic, although the whole thing is related.

 

Why? It all comes down to the same choice whether he has to make it quickly or not. Furthermore, it would make it a harder choice to make by having to attack his Jedi friends first. Neither scenario would make Anakin's turn be set in stone. But the fact is, Sidious' only card was Padme. And he could use it when he wanted and how he wanted. By showing that he was going to kill Mace himself it proves that he was going to use it later.

I think you give him far to much credit. The only reason he didn't kill Palpatine was because he wanted to save Padme. It had nothing to do with it not being the Jedi Way.

Thats why he said "What have I done?".

No one is doubting that he was conflicted. But it was always more than likely that he was going to put Padme first. He never learned to let go. Therefore he would always act on his attachment - not on his duty.

Anakin made the choice in the temple. He decided then that he would not let Palpatine die. By making that choice in that moment he had decided to betray the Jedi. He wasnt fully comitted to their cause. He was in it for himself. The choice to attack Mace hadn't been made but what led to that choice had been.

Had Anakin not been faced with that choice, had the Jedi already been dead, he would have joined Sidious anyway. He hadn't let go therefore he would do what he thought he had to, to save Padme.

I agree entirely. Thats what happens in the scene. But that was only the outcome. It wasn't the plan. If it was Sidious' plan to have Anakin in the office from the get go or arrive at some point to kill Mace then:

A)Mace woulnt have been winning as its described as Sidious would be faking.
B)Sidious wouldn't have been trying to kill Mace (with blade and lightning)

 

what exactly are you saying rs77?
that sidious threw the fight or not???

 

Have I not been clear enough? I think he was caught off guard and disarmed by Mace. I think he greatly exaggerated his "weakness" for Anakin's benefit. I don't think he needed Anakin to actually save his life, it was a show he may or may not have made up on the spot. I do think he always planned on having Anakin show up, to force him into a situaton where he has to make a concrete choice. That better?

 

JV was just asking a question RS77, lets keep this civil.

I think saying "he was caught off guard" once again is trying to excuse why he lost to Mace. I don't agree with this at all as we know Mace is on par with Sidious. The reason Sidious lost was because he got too angry against Mace and the Jedi took advantage. Mace out-duelled him.

He did indeed exaggerate his weakness for Anakins benefit - but also for his own. He is at a weakness after all. He has been beaten and knows he can't beat Mace. If he could have killed Mace he would have. We know this as his intention was to kill Mace himself anyway.

That brings us on to that final point about him planning on Anakin being there so he could force him into the situation where he has to make a choice. Well, the fact that Sidious was trying to kill Mace himself proves that:

A) He had no intention of having Anakin kill Mace or make said choice
B) That he didn't think he would need Anakin to save him

So thats the lot really. Sidious' plan was to make the Jedi look like traitors, tell this to Anakin and use the Padme card to turn him and then excute Order 66. What really took place was never Sidious' intention. It was just a last minute plan to save his hind and plans.

What the yes vote...excuse me, what the argument you are presenting suggests goes against so much information we have:

A) It rejects Lucas' commentary
B) Its suggests that Sidious wasn't confident in beating Mace (We know Sith are always over-confident).
C) It suggests that Sidious knew the exact moment Anakin would arrive.
D) It suggests that Sidious would actually risk losing when by winning he can fulfill his plans.
E) It suggests that Mace was a lesser swordsman than Sidious when we have been told otherwise.
F) The film called Revenge of the Sith. Otherwise known as Episode 3.

I could go on but I have other things to do today.

MS

 

Have I not been clear enough? I think he was caught off guard and disarmed by Mace.

so what you're saying here is that sidious made a mistake.
considering there were no distractions for sidious (or mace) at that point, then we should give mace credit for the disarming, right?
or to put it this way: mace outdueled him.

I think he greatly exaggerated his "weakness" for Anakin's benefit.

by using the word 'greatly' you seem to be implying that sidious wasn't hurt at all by the lightning.
perhaps he wasn't. it's not really relevant.
what is relevant is that sidious thought that he couldn't beat mace with his lightning.
if anything, he must've believed that he would suffer more than mace if they continued.
why else would he give up?

I don't think he needed Anakin to actually save his life, it was a show he may or may not have made up on the spot. I do think he always planned on having Anakin show up, to force him into a situaton where he has to make a concrete choice.

if he didn't need anakin to save him then what were his outs?

but the thing is... it's actually irrelevant if he wanted anakin to show up or not.
it's clear that he wanted to kill mace.
so in relation to the whole "taking a dive" discussion it doesn't matter if he wanted anakin to see it or not.
he still lost because he couldn't handle mace!
anakin's presence can't change that.

so if sidious wanted anakin there, it was only to have him witness (stand by and and do nothing) the jedi getting killed.
but that plan does in no way, involve anyone taking a dive to force anakin's hand.

and MS is right btw. it was just a question.

That better?

not really. in this post of yours you don't actually state your opinion clearly.
did he throw the duel or not (not speaking about that last part since we all basically agree that sidious exaggerated his weakness)?

 

If you actually believe that I'm arguing for ANY of those points then you're tragically missing my entire argument, and it's just not worth explaining again and again. You can't understand another's point of view if totally obsessed with another. It's looking at the sitution in the most black and white way imaginable, and that is totally the wrong way to see it, especially when there is so little information given to us, and that information is, contrary to popular belief in here, open to interpretations. This is Lucas we're talking about.


edit: markups

 

If you actually believe that I'm arguing for ANY of those points then you're tragically missing my entire argument, and it's just not worth explaining again and again. You can't understand another's point of view if totally obsessed with another.

read through MS' post again...
he's explaining what your arguement suggests...
NOT what it is!

and that last comment was uncalled for.
you're implying MS is obsessed and incapable of understanding another viewpoint than his own.

 

A) No there isn.t
B) If he was so confident why did he plan on having Anakin come in and kill Mace then??
C) Arrive eventually? Like when - after he kills Mace?
D) So why did he try to kill Mace as GL said?
E) So why make excuses for why Sidious lost?
F) You first.

Bait and flame me all you want RS77, im in the postion where I can clearly say that I understand your view point but just see it as incorrect - I once thought as you do. I argued it like no other. But then the facts were released and I changed my view accordingly. I learned. I let go. I adapted. And I became prospered from doing this.

Saying that "im wrong to see it in black and white" is a black and white statement in itself.

I have a number of facts to back it up. All you seem to posess is this idea that Sidious is some kind of god whom forsee's all and is all-powerful. I admire your supporting of the under dog (more dead dog) argument. But I just think you really have to let go of it if you want to really grasp the film. I did and am much clearer on it now.

Little information? Mace overpowers Sidious. Mace is winning. Sidious tries to destroy Mace with his rays. Sidious exaggertaes his weakness to force Anakins hand. Thats a few points from Lucas. But even Knoll steps forward and says:

?The close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he?s getting zapped and the strain of all this exertion is what transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in ROTJ.? - Knoll.

So again, I really can't see where this idea that Sidious planned for Anakin to arrive and kill Mace comes from anymore. Its just totally gone. Nor this notion that Sidious wasn't weaknening or could just kill Mace when he wanted. Its clear he was at Mace's mercy.

Lucas has the last word on this matter.

I have never been into space and thus never seen with my own eyes that the world is round. But I trust those that say it is and would be foolish to go against them. Its the same with this. Lucas confrimes that Mace beats Sidious and Sidious tries to kill Mace. He makes it 100% clear that Sidious then has to alter his plans to get Anakin to save him.

Darth Sidious is not a real person. He cant speak for himself. Only Lucas can. So what Lucas says is basically what Sidious would say about the situation. And what Lucas says highlights the fact that Sidious did not plan to fake defeat and get Anakin to kill Mace.

And I would appreciate it if you didnt make negative comments about me. I have answered your points fairly and diplomatically without flame and have been disappointed by the responses

 

Wow! Hot debate going on.

Anyway.....

I have to admit Mace won the duel but as the old saying goes he won the battle but not the war. Sidious was the victor in the end. Thanks to Anakin

 

Of that, the pavements of Coruscant are proof!

 

Of course, but that's like saying that Mace won the ultimate war because Anakin ended up killing Palpatine - Mace was ready to die for what he believed in, and he did. Palpatine wasn't ready to die for anything, and he was killed anyway.

It's overcomplicating a simple issue - 2 people scrap it out, one ends up on his ass begging for somebody else to help him. That's what this thread is about, "Mace vs. Sidious" - not "Mace vs. Sidious and Anakin". "Mace vs. Sidious" ends the second Anakin decides to jump in the ring. Now - the ultimate debate is about the state of the fight once Anakin changes it, and that state has Palpatine lying on the floor. That issue is a lot more simple then people make it out to be - did Palpatine plan to be on that floor or not?

George has already answered that question. You can choose not to listen to him - by all means do if you don't like what he has to say about it. But at least recognize the intent behind this scene - the intent that Palpatine needs Anakin to save him. The intent that Palpatine was out to cut Mace's head off and failed on his own. The intent that he tried frying him and wasn't successfull in doing so.

 

Bumped up for discussion.

 

Okay lets discuss You have any views on certain pages I can refer to or a fresh perspective.

EDIT* SORRY I didn't read any of the pages

 

QUOTE: Master-Shaitan

I think saying "he was caught off guard" once again is trying to excuse why he lost to Mace. I don't agree with this at all as we know Mace is on par with Sidious. The reason Sidious lost was because he got too angry against Mace and the Jedi took advantage. Mace out-duelled him.

He did indeed exaggerate his weakness for Anakins benefit - but also for his own. He is at a weakness after all. He has been beaten and knows he can't beat Mace. If he could have killed Mace he would have. We know this as his intention was to kill Mace himself anyway

Shaitan we can't debate on this matter as I completely agree with you. I was hoping for round 2 though .

 

Guess we will have to find another arena to battle in my friend!

 

im not sure where i should of put this exactly
so if its in the wrong spot
please redirect me

anyways, on the starwars.com boards
somebody is teling us how him and his teenage freinds wrote a book on how mace survived and how they sent it into lucasfilm or lucasbooks or wutever for approval and they got it apprently.....

the rest of us are convinced it wouldnt happen due to legal rights involving the creative submissions
heres the thread
read through the last few pages....darth zinox is the one who claims this
im just trying to figure out if this is possible at all

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=242116&start=1290

 

wow when i used to debate here right befor the openning of ROTS and i could remember Master_shaitan would never have agreed to said that Palpatine would have lost the fight fair and square but now im amazed welcome to the right path Master Shaitan

oh and by the way i heard many time that Sidious was all powerfull because he defeated 3 supposed so powerfull jedi in a few seconde,

now let me correct this.other then being jedi these 3 supposed so powerfull jedi had done nothing to be called so powerfull by the way, they never fought any real sith befor or probably never had been in a true lightsaber battle befor.what palpatine did there was good but not that much,if i remember correctly Grevious defeat Ki adi mundi or whatever that conhead name was, aayla secura and a bunch of other jedi all by himself in clone wars however Mace Windu seriously injured him without even a single sweat.if i remember well the conhead guy was part of the council and he got defeated like a rag doll.

 

I wouldn't put down the average Jedi or General Grievous just to say that Sidious is not that powerful, Darth_Cange. There is a lot of evidence that Sidious planned to have Anakin as his apprentice, especially in RotS. To toss the Anakin card away in the Mace / Sidious duel is awful harsh. To me, *still* the only untainted duel Sidious fights is between himself and Yoda.

 

lets do a test ok? put water in a glass and turn the glass upside down.
we both can predict that water will fall on the grown right?but can you predict exakly how far the water is gonna splash?or what form will take on the grown?or that you will not be splashed by the water??

my point is that yeah Palpatine intended to turn Anakin to his side and he told everything to anakin,he knew also that anakin might join him but yet lets not forget about something.it was also obvious that he had no more reason to stay in power,it was obvious that the jedi were going to overthrown him and palpatine didnt wanted that.he had no more line of defence againts the jedi,nobody to save his @ss againts the jedi so he did all he could do to stay in power and that i have to admit was an awsome part of him,he remained calm all the time and proved to be a formidable liar.its like a poker game.he bluffed and anakin bited the bait.however this would be completly stupid to think he had forseen that anakin would appear at the exact moment he was down,Mace won the fight he kicked him in the face and palpatine falled on the grown thats it its obvious,the act he played later about him being weak was only another bluff to attemp to save his own life,i admit it tought,it is true that palpatine knew anakin would be turn but he never knew he would be kicked in the face like that and brought to his knee by mace.

also

why would it be?ain't yoda the most overated jedi ever? i mean where in the movie have we heard that he was the strongest jedi of his time?strong in the force yes,a good combatant yes probably the wisest also but the strongest in a duel no.now there is alot of thing that ppl overate in this fight also and in my point of view Mace did alot better then yoda,you ppl overate yoda because he did thing in that fight that we didnt see other jedi do, however the other jedi were never given that chance to prove they couldnt do it.

Yoda blocking Sidious lighting with his bare hand,first off this has nothing to do with brute strenght it is more about the force power and that i may be capable of agreeing with you that Yoda has the hightest mediclorian after anakin,Mace or any other jedi were never given a chance to prove they couldnt do that to since everytime we saw palpatin or dooku use sith lighting every jedi had a light saber and could block it with it,however now there is a point i noticed,some of you sayin that Mace was struggling soo much while deflecting Palpatine lighting,however if you watch carefull yoda and palpatine fight you notice that yoda couldnt even keep his lightsaber when palpatine used force lighting on him and it is at this precises moment he lost his lightsaber in the battle,wierd uh?wierd that someon weak as mace could do something that yoda couldnt?.

now about yoda jumping all arround and being so fast,i dont think it was because yoda is faster but actualy because yoda is maded of CGI animation so it was easier for them to make a cooler fight.

as for palpatine throwing pod like it was nothing its back to the force ability and that i may agree that Yoda is stronger in that domaine then Mace windu however there is nothing to show us that Mace wouldnt have been able to do the same since there was nothing to throw arround in the Mace fight..

 

Darth_Cange
lets do a test ok? put water in a glass and turn the glass upside down.
we both can predict that water will fall on the grown right? but can you predict exakly how far the water is gonna splash? or what form will take on the grown? or that you will not be splashed by the water??

Good example, but look at the Palpatine on the Invisible Hand ship at the start of RotS, this guy is a risk-taker. That's how he stays ahead of the Jedi.

my point is that yeah Palpatine intended to turn Anakin to his side and he told everything to anakin, he knew also that anakin might join him but yet lets not forget about something. it was also obvious that he had no more reason to stay in power

Palpatine set up the confrontation though. In another thread, I just realized that the Jedi have been fighting in the Clone Wars for four years without knowing Palpatine was a Sith Lord. At the start of RotS, they're rescuing him. I'm not so sure if the Jedi were going to catch Palpatine. But if Palpatine did want to be Emperor, he was going to have to confront the Jedi at some point, I'll admit that.

however this would be completly stupid to think he had forseen that anakin would appear at the exact moment he was down, Mace won the fight he kicked him in the face and palpatine falled on the grown thats it its obvious, the act he played later about him being weak was only another bluff to attemp to save his own life

True, but again look at the Invisible Hand. That was an incredible risk. I think Palpatine expected Anakin to rescue him, the situation was setup for Anakin. You couldn't exactly plan that out.

ain't yoda the most overated jedi ever? i mean where in the movie have we heard that he was the strongest jedi of his time? strong in the force yes, a good combatant yes probably the wisest also but the strongest in a duel no. now there is alot of thing that ppl overate in this fight also and in my point of view Mace did alot better then yoda, you ppl overate yoda because he did thing in that fight that we didnt see other jedi do, however the other jedi were never given that chance to prove they couldnt do it.

Because in this duel Yoda wants to kill Sidious, not arrest him, and Sidious wants to defend his Empire. Before Sidious wanted to become Emperor, turn Anakin, and destroy the Jedi. Killing Mace doesn't even make my top three in the Sids / Mace duel. The Yoda / Sids duel is like the battle between good and evil, the Mace / Sids duel didn't seem to have that feel.

Mace or any other jedi were never given a chance to prove they couldnt do that to since everytime we saw palpatin or dooku use sith lighting every jedi had a light saber and could block it with it, however now there is a point i noticed, some of you sayin that Mace was struggling soo much while deflecting Palpatine lighting, however if you watch carefull yoda and palpatine fight you notice that yoda couldnt even keep his lightsaber when palpatine used force lighting on him and it is at this precises moment he lost his lightsaber in the battle, wierd uh? wierd that someon weak as mace could do something that yoda couldnt?

Okay, that is one of the better points why Mace Windu might be better than Yoda at dueling.

Still Yoda was able to defend himself without a lightsaber against Sidious' electricity. It's no accident Yoda is the only Jedi shown to reflect and disperse lightning onscreen, that's definitely the way GL wanted it. I doubt any other Jedi could do that except, possibly Mace. At best Sidious gimped an unsatisfying, marginal win from Yoda. Plus Sidious had homefield advantage with his Empire of clonetroopers at his call. Yoda had to think about defending the Jedi order if Obi-Wan did not survive. Yoda wasn't willing to risk it all in a force-throwing shoot out with Sidious, that wouldve been a gamble for both Yoda and Sidious.

as for palpatine throwing pod like it was nothing its back to the force ability and that i may agree that Yoda is stronger in that domaine then Mace windu howev