*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

he needed Anakin to get involved and be the one to betray Mace so that he would feel as though there was no going back. Had Sidious destroyed Mace (if he could), then Sidious would have dead Jedi to account for and no assurance that Anakin would join him.
this is one of the most common misinterpretations i see in this discussion.
all sidious needs is for anakin to NOT get involved.
by doing nothing to prevent mace from getting killed, anakin is guilty and there's no going back.

so... as long as sidious knows anakin will do nothing to help mace (which he witnesses himself) it's the best strategy to kill mace then and there. why wouldn't he? it's clear that anakin won't intervene. mission accomplished.

no need for this faking crap which could result in his death, when he already has what he wants.
the only explanation can be that sidious was indeed overpowered and needed anakin to help him out.

 

Exactly. Sidious would have never been able to overwhelm Mace's lightsaber simply using lightning. Sidious wouldn't have given up his blade on a gamble. He played up his weakness when Anakin walked in, in order to save his skin. He knew that Mace would kill him, he was defenseless, and Mace would be able to deflect his "rays". Listen to the ROTS commentary.

 

If Anakin sat there and did nothing what makes you think he would turn? Simply killing Mace gets Palpatine nothing. Anakin could just turn around and run off again. But if he assisted in killing Mace, who's he going to run to? He's a traitor. He didn't go to Palpatine's office to join the Sith, he was there to see to it that Palpatine was arrested. I don't think at that point he was even contemplating whether or not to join the Sith, he was going to arrest Palpatine force him to tell him how to save Padme and then see him rot in prison for the rest of his life. A dead Mace Windu in itself wasn't what forced Anakin to turn, it was the fact that Anakin was partly responsible for his death. He, in his mind, could never go back to the Jedi, all he can do is start to believe Palpatine's lies to alleviate his guilt.

 

And if Anakin didn't chop off Mace's hand and do nothing what was he gonna say, "Oh yeah Yoda, I saw Palps kill Mace and I just stood there and did nothing to help him because I was a lil skeptical."

I agree with jvber, the only way he would have been accepted back into the order was to help Mace. Help killing him or let him die would not be an option if he wanted to stay on the order.

 

I doubt that. He's one of the most powerful Jedi at that point, and as Palpatine said, the Jedi need him more than he knows. Palpatine forcing Anakin to help destroy Mace forces Anakin over the threshold to where he can't go back. Indeed, he blames himself for what happened, "What have I done?". In the RotS novel, after Mace's death, Anakin says he came only to protect Palpatine and that he wouldn't join him. Palpatine twists his mind a bit more than he agrees. But I have to believe, even if Anakin watched, it would have been fine to go back to the Jedi. He could have simply lied about the whole thing.

I disagree. In dueling Yoda, Sidious blasted Yoda's lighsaber right out of his hand with the sheer power of his Force lightning.

 

But if he assisted in killing Mace, who's he going to run to? He's a traitor.
this would be the situation if he just stood by ant watched as well.
he's a jedi, and jedi don't stand around watching other jedi get killed because they're donfsed.
there's no excuse for it and anakin knows it.
assist or not to assist. it's basically the same choice which leaves him with one possible future.

Al has got it right!
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even if Anakin watched, it would have been fine to go back to the Jedi. He could have simply lied about the whole thing.
first of all. that's missing the point all together. yes. he could lie about it if he just watched. in fact, he can still lie about it the way things end up now. there's no proof that he cut off mace's hand and assisted palps. but it's not about what he could do. it's about what he needs. he needs an excuse to join palps. by watching or assisting (doesn't really matter), anakin gets what he needs -padme.

so by not acting to help mace anakin fools himself into thinking there's no choice anymore. it's a lie of course. he can always go back and do the right thing. but anakin isn't there yet. he doesn't understand it until we get to rotj.

anakin is looking for an excuse and a way to force himself into palps' arms.

 

I can't honestly picture Yoda saying "What? You saw the Chancellor kill Master Windu and nothing you did? Expelled you are." Most of the Jedi were spread across the galaxy, he wasn't going to just get expelled. They had to deal with Palpatine quickly.

But your argument is that Palpatine was trying to kill Mace from the start. Anakin was told not to interfere, and he more or less followed orders, not showing up until the fight was pretty much over. What if Palpatine had killed Mace during that time? Palpatine wouldn't be able to turn Anakin. And I think if Mace was the one in danger of dying Anakin would have stepped in to help him. He cut off Mace's hand on an impulse because Palpatine forced him to in order to save his wife (or so Anakin thinks). If Anakin had walked in and Mace was on the defensive things probably would have turned out differently. Also, recall that in his fight with Yoda, Palpatine's initial impulse is to run. He didn't want to stay there and take an unnecessary risk; he has armies to do his fighting for him. So why wait in his office to face down four Jedi? Why take that risk? I think he realized that he would be relatively safe, that the Jedi were there to arrest him and not kill him (heck, it took an awful lot of coaxing to get Mace to decide to kill him), and I figure he knew that Anakin was going to show up, he knew Anakin well. This isn't about whether Palpatine throw the fight or not, even if he didn't throw the fight, he probably knew that Anakin was going to be there to bail him out. He needed Anakin to be there and to intervene.

 

Lucas is sending us mixed messages because he shows us Sidious killing 3 Jedi and then sending Yoda, the grandmaster himself packing on a trip to Dagobah but he couldn't defeat a nobody Jedi like Mace? I don't buy it. Not when said victories, Sidious's telepathic call to Anakin, the 2nd lightsaber he used to fight Yoda, and his pausing in mid-battle when he had his saber pointed at Mace's chest show that there's more than one thing that shows us that Sidious was holding back the entire time he was fighting Mace. Sidious is only surprised or overpowered when his back is turned such as when Vader picks him up and tosses him into the reactor core but not when he's in a lightsaber duel.

You are not George Lucas either who likes to talk out of his ass and make stuff up as he goes along just as he did with this fight. He originally had Anakin present the whole time PalpSidious was fighting the Mace Windu posse and not moving a muscle until Mace had Palps cornered. He changed this scene into what we see today and here we have Palps calling Anakin psychically, then killing 3 Jedi, and the mentioned pause in mid-battle which gives some fans the impression that Sidious was throwing the fight.

With changes like these, it's no wonder why the fans are questioning Lucas's decisions.

 

Lucas changed the scene because his friends Steven Speilberg, Ron Howard and Francis Ford Coppla told him to change it. That the scene didn't work out as he filmed it and so he agreed, which is why he changed it. We've had for years heard tell of fans wanting Lucas to listen to others in how to make a film, and when he finally does, he gets bitched for it.

And we don't know for sure that Palpatine telepathically summoned Anakin. It could've been something he said that was cut out. Palpatine lost to Mace, becaue Mace won the fight. It happens. Even the best swordsman can lose to someone who is better. In fact, Yoda defeated Palpatine in Lightsaber combat as well, which necessitated in Palpatine having to chuk pods and use lightning in order to survive. Yoda also didn't lose, he simply quit fighting as he realized that he needed to leave. It was pointless fighting anymore.

Palpatine didn't pause in mid fight with Mace. It's called building tension. It's a technique used in all armed and unarmed fight scenes. All directors, good and bad, do this.

 

It doest matter...a draw was a win for the sith...just like if Anakin wouldve ran from Obi Wan..it wouldve been a win...thas why Sidious attempted to run in the first place..there was no reason for him to even attempt...If Anakin wouldve ran there would be no OT

Yea I agree with you...Now that I think about he probably was talking to Anakin..I always wondered why we never see Sidious communicating like this but we see Luke and Vader do it

and it did appear to me like he was half a***** the fight....the pauses didnt make sense because Mace could barely keep up..when he paused it gave Mace the ability to regain his defense..totally didnt make even sense..when ur overwhelming someone with s

 

Sinister-Do you build tension when someone is pointing a sword at your chest? I don't think so because you have no way of knowing if he's going to kill you or not and that's how I feel when Palpatine did that to Mace. Plus, the movie never showed him losing to Yoda in lightsaber combat because for all we know, he could have stashed his saber back in his robes in order to play frisbee using those senate pods and Yoda had to put his saber away too so he could play.

 

Yea we see Sidious laughing so it seems he enjoys every aspect of fighting

He probably jus felt like throwing pods and he seems to like resorting to lightining cuz he enjoys torturing his victims

 

That is building tension cinematically. You see that Mace and Palpatine are fierce fighters, capable of going the distance. You wonder if Palpatine will go for the kill or not. If Mace can block or not. All sword fights have this logical fallacy to them. Be it excessive clashing of the swords, twirling, posing with various stances that aren't necessary. It's all staged. In real fights you wouldn't get away with half the stuff the actors and stunt persons do.

Or he could've lost his saber while fighting Yoda.

 

I have always tried hard to understand Sidious' style of fighting. The way I have looked at his style and have interpreted it is that his movements and its aesthetics are designed to break symmetry. When one sees other fights in the PT, they all look so elegant and almost like a dance. I think this goes with the territory. When Sids fought, from what one can see, it seems that his style seeks to break that eloquence, balance, symmetry. That is how I have viewed it and it seems in keeping with his character. He has done nothing but that throughout his career, seeking to disrupt the Republic and all that. Any further thoughts on Sid's style?

 

Not sure what style he is, but I like it. You had to love the twirls in the battle between Mace.

 

For Ian McDiarmid and stuntman Michael Byrne, there wasn't much of a particular style. For the character of Palpatine, it was a modified version of Form IV. One that puts an emphasis on thrusts, which we see a lot during the Mace fight and at the start of the Yoda fight, we see a bit of it.

 

Great arguments!!
I'm agreeing too much with you today, something is off
But let's face it: Lucas is going to get bitched whatever he does - you can't expect for everyone to be satisfied no matter how you do it!

 

What happens if Palpatine does not allow himself to be disarmed just before Anakin enters the room? Doesn't Anakin join the fight on Mace's side? What happens then?

What happens if Palpatine kills Mace outright, like he does with those other herbs? Doesn't Anakin arrive and decide that he has to kill Palpatine? How would that scenario play out?

If Palpatine wins the duel outright, or prolongs it, his chances for converting Anakin to the darkside are not good.

Palpatine threw the fight?

 

Still going on this debate?

I haven't had time to read through all pages but the
reason ppl still believe Palps threw the fight is Lucas fault.

I mean come on, the emperor has tricked the whole senate including
the separatists. He has started a war right in front of the jedis and
they don't have a clue it's him doing it. They can't even "sense" that
he is strong in the force even though they live a couple of blocks away.

And during the duel when Anakin arrives exactly in time to see Palps
beaten it's just too good timing. Earlier we have heard Palps tell Anakin
that he knows of his dreams about Padme dieing in child birth. And after the
duel with Yoda he senses that Anakin is in danger on another planet...

Same thing with the force lightning, after Anakin has cut off Mace's hand Palps
starts to fry him and Mace starts shaking. Then we see him let Mace experience
the full power of the dark side when he turns up the lightning and Mace fly all
the way to the jeditower.
That has me thinking that he used a lesser voltage in the first rays.

 

Well...im not going to try and tell people they are wrong concerning their interpretation of this scene. When viewing the scene alone, its all up to the viewer. I myself once thought that Sidious faked it all. "I was once a yes voter..."

However, my interpretation is now different. Why? For a number of reasons. But mostly down to what I have read about the scene, what Lucas has said and through the arguments of other posters. And now I feel better about it all. I personally have a greater understanding of what is going on. And this has a ripple effect. Through seeing what I believe Lucas intended in this scene it effects how I view the rest of the saga and thus benefit more so, IMO, from the films Lucas created.

Lucas himself has said that "Mace overpowered Sidious", "Mace was winning when Anakin arrived", "Sidious was trying to destroy Mace with his rays", Sidious needed Anakin to save him" and "Mace and Yoda are on par with Sidious" -- all these quotes to me prove that Lucas intended to show that Mace won fair and square and that Sidious did not fake defeat. Lucas also says that "Sidious fakes losing his powers" and later tells how Anakin believed that Sidious didn't have any powers hence why he was suprised at Mace's death - "what have I done!". This to me shows that Sidious lost to Mace, tried lightning which Mce deflected back on to him and had no choice but to concede defeat. He then faked losing hs powers and being weak so Anakin would have to save him. This isn't saying that he could fight back and win. Its just that he needed Anakin to help him as he knew he couldnt beat Mace but needed to trick Anakin into thinking he had lost his powers.

The one issue seems to be the scene where Anakin hears Palpatines voice in the temple and then arrives "just in time" to save Sidious. Coincidence? Yes and no. It wasnt Sidious' plan. Had it have been then he wouldnt have tried to "destroy Mace with his rays". I mean, why set it up so Anakin has to kill Mace then to do it himself? So what do I mean by it not being a coincidence? Well, they don't really exist in Star Wars per se due to the Force. Perhaps Anakin arrived at that exact time because of his connection to the Force? He WANTED to keep Palpatine alive. The force made it known to him when he had to go to achieve that...just conjecture on my part there though!

The one thing Sidious did plan though was to make the Jedi out to be assissins. But Anakin arriving when he did and doing what he did was not planned - at least, that wasnt the intention of Lucas.

 

Yes that's what I mean, if you go by the movie it seems like
Sid is throwing the fight. Lucas had to tell us that Mace is winning because
the buildup of the movie makes it look the other way. It makes us think Sid is this almighty mindreader who
knows what you dream about and know when you are in danger lightyears away when
the jedis can't even feel the darkside in him even though they have been neighbours
the past xx years...

The duel itself doesn't exactly help as it is problably the worst
coreographed(sp?) in the entire prequel trilogy and there is absolutely
none(!) use of force powers except for Sids lightning.

 

Well, I wouldnt say that. Many people, well...the majority felt that mace had won fair and square before any of those quotes were revealed. I think the movie alone offers the interpretation you speak of. However when you listen to the quotes and amend your view then I think you gain a better understanding of what is going on and further more, the saga at large.

As for the "bad choreography"...maybe. I wasnt too keen at first. But I've learned to enjoy it for what it is. Its just different in style. And its still great to see Mace in action vs Sidious.

 

I don't know, my reaction on my first viewing was that I was shocked Mace was strong enough to defeat the Emperor as I had previously thought he was only about as strong as Count Dooku.

 

Didn't the majority of the voters think that Sids threw the fight
in the first voting after the movie on this board?

Anyone got a link to the result of the first vote?

 

I'll see if I can find it.