*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

palpatine threw the fight.. why else would they show the part of the duel where mace's arm's are totally spread open while sidious puts his lightsaber up to his chest but doesnt' kill him. if sidious wanted mace dead he would have been at that moment. he wanted mace alive to finish the seduction of anakin.

 

farrellg, you can keep saying all that, but every official source all the way up to Lucas himself says the faking began after he could not penetrate Mace's defenses - when he was begging and pleading.

 

farrellg,drop the luke issue,luke is nothing more than a pushover compared to mace,when palaptine almost killed him that wasnt sign for me of how strong is the emperor but sign of how weak luke really is.

the reason of why the emperor obviously doesnt look as powerfull as he did in the OT:

1- the other characters were :almost dead yoda,suited vader,luke and 60 years old obi wan

2- In the PT we have "real" warriors as yoda in his best shape,mace,unsuited anakin,dooku ,etc.thats why the emperor lost some of his appeal as you call it.

 

the emporer is NOT weak, and where are you getting this "how weak luke is"- lightning is lightning- palpatine was making him suffer slowly on his way to death- the emporer is a very powerful sith lord- as yoda is a very powerful jedi

 

Vader said that Luke's "skills were complete", so he wasn't a pushover. Gillard said that "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced". This suggests that the Emperor was not meant to lose some of his appeal in ROTS. If he's presented as a dominant supervillain in the OT, he fits that description in the PT because the films are meant to be consistent with each other.

 

farrelleg- he didnt make his lightnign weak- although i think that palpatine wouldve kileld mace eventually without anakin there- palpatine did not use weak lightning- but it probly wasnt the most powerful lightning either-0 or palpatine would have been killed- he problly orignanly wanted him to suffer like luke did- but then after what had just happened- he decided to give him a full blast when anakin chopped off his hand

 

can you 2 please wash your ears ??

i said how weak luke is COMPARED to the emperor.

and i said luke is a pushover COMPARED to mace.




please read more carefully next time.

 

"this scene always started out with Windu OVERPOWERING (not simply disarming which could be more ambigous) AND THEN (then, not 5 minutes later, not the day before, not from the beginning considering the whole context) Sidious trying to destroy Windu with his powers and Mace deflecting the rays with the lightsaber. But this part where he pretends to lose his power (not the disarming part that had already been mentioned, not the lightning part that had already been mentioned, this part, just this part where he pretends, the part where he is not shooting anymore and he says he can't go on shooting)is something that I ADDED (so when he says Palpatine pretends doesn't refer to the whole context becasue he said the part where he pretends was ADDED TO THE PART WHERE WINDU OVERPOWERS AND WHERE SIDIOUS TRIES TO DESTROY WINDU WITH HIS POWERS).

I'm sorry boy but it's completely lost. It's impossible to change the meaning of this sentence. If this was a trial the guilty sentence would be ensured.

 

"Ok, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he?s now that its very clear that he?s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn?t the part where the Emperor gives up, he goes - ?You got me! You got me!?. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn?t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think?and it makes the Emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. it?s a dramatic thing to deal with."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Palpatine only starts to fake once he realizes that he cannot overwhelm Mace. And the reason for Mace raising his saber to slash Palpatine is for dramatic effect. It's Lucas way of acheiving what he initiallly wanted. Which is Anakin making his struggle between being a Jedi and being a Sith. Mace was going for a decapitation and Anakin intercepted.

 

luke is certainly capable as a jedi. that doesn't really say much though.
obi wan skills are complete as well, that doesn't mean he will last long in a fight against sidious.

the whole point here is that only mace and yoda are able to get the better of sidious as we see in the films.
both of them come pretty close to beating him.

luke simply doesn't stand a chance and has to win by using alternative methods.
so in a traditional fight luke can't really be compared to mace and yoda in my opinion...

edit: thanks d-s! that should clear things up. the quotes leave little room for alternative interpretations imo.

 

Gillard's opinion has no bearing on the actual narrative of the story.

Are you aware that Gillard had an entirely different style of fight choreographed for Mace and Palpatine, but Lucas scrapped it in order to have Ian more involved. Gillard had to redo the choreography on set and Lucas told him exactly how he wanted it.

Lucas supercedes Gillard on that. Lucas is quite clear in his commentary what his intentions were from the beginning and exactly what is happening in the scene.

Sidious is a powerful sith lord, but he lost this fight. Rick McCallum says that everyone loses one fight in the film.

 

and i said luke is a pushover COMPARED to mace.

I understand this, but it doesn't mean that Mace can't be a pushover compared to the Emperor. Gillard said Mace is second only to Yoda and that the Emperor is better than Yoda because he has the extra power of the dark side. Therefore, Mace must be inferior to the Emperor if he's ionferior to Yoda. Yoda's lightsaber was useless against the Emperor's lightning, so Mace's lightsaber should be also.

 

bingo.thats all i meant

 

but we are shown that it is not.

 

Personally, I think that you've got it bang on.

Think about it: the Main Villain of the Saga is at gunpoint. This could be it- all the pain and tragedy could be avoided. But the hero, Anakin, makes the WRONG decision, the TRAGIC decision, and saves Palpatine's life. Anakin's actions are the final straw on the camel's back.

This scene isn't about who is stronger. Its how fate was finally going in the right direction (Palpatine's DEFEAT), but things end up going right back to BAD, thanks to the tragic hero.

Yeah.

 

Yoda's lightsaber was useless against the Emperor's lightning, so Mace's lightsaber should be also.
it's about grip.
sometimes you have a good grip on your saber, sometimes you don't.

in no way is a grip indicative of power or make a good basis for comparison and ranking.

the whole point, and i believe lucas stated this in the commentary, is that you need variation between two scenes that are similar. mace can hold onto his saber, yoda can't. let's not make a big deal out of this, cos it means nothing...

 

There's a very simple explanation as to the "why": If Mace was legitimately capable of defeating Palpatine, why couldn't Yoda? If Mace was legitimately capable of defeating the Sith, why would the Force conspire to manipulate midichlorians in order to create life and generate a Chosen One with the singular purpose of destroying the Sith and returning balance to the Force? I'm not saying there aren't answers to these questions, but these questions are troubling at best, and that's why it is "unpalatable." It has nothing to do with how much you like or dislike any given character but is ALL about how you perceive RotS and the saga as a whole.

There's no question about whether or not Mace is capable enough to "take on" Palpatine, he survived an onslaught that VERY few other Jedi could handle--that much is clear. There is also no longer any question that Sidious was faking when he allowed Mace to attempt to strike him down and said, "I'm too weak..please don't kill me." What is less clear is whether or not Mace had legitimately overpowered Darth Sidious moments before.

 

What is less clear is whether or not Mace had legitimately overpowered Darth Sidious moments before.

I once again bring up my point about Sidious being kicked in the face and momentarily stunned by Mace. I can't see Sidious allowing that to happen. We all know what happened to Qui-Gon after he was hit in the head, and if Mace had been going for the kill, Sidious would have been dead less than a second later.

 

But Palpatine would know that Mace wouldn't be going for the kill if he disarms his opponent, since that's against the Jedi Code.

 

Vader said that Luke's "skills were complete", so he wasn't a pushover

what vader says is irrelevant.

making a saber would make your fighting abilities complete ??




Gillard said that "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced"


and mr gillard and i agree



. This suggests that the Emperor was not meant to lose some of his appeal in ROTS



but i dont say that he did.you are the one who always says that the emperor lost appeal in ROTS


If he's presented as a dominant supervillain in the OT, he fits that description in the PT because the films are meant to be consistent with each other

he still is a supervillain for me in ROTS but again,you are the one who keeps saying that he lost appeal

 

To answer the passage in bold, which seems to be the crux of your argument, it was never about having power or being more powerful than Sidious. Lucas makes this clear. When Vader finally kills Sidious in ROTJ, he is clearly weaker than than Sidious (he's half robot).

Now, the Prophecy says that the Chosen One will bring balance. At this time in ROTS, it means killing Sidious. Mace (and arguably Yoda) can destroy Sidious, but only Anakin will.

I hope the distinction between 'can' and 'will' is clear. Having the capability to destroy Sidious in a fight is not a prerequisite.

 

G'ah!

As I suggested earlier, the scene isn't about who is better than who. Its about the decision that Anakin made at such an epic and pivotal moment.

When I saw it the first time, I assumed that either side could have won. Sometimes the winner of a fight is just lucky, plain and simple.

The fact that Mace won is sooo pivotal to the entire saga. It could have all potentially ended THERE and THEN. But it didn't: Anakin got in the way, ensuring the life of the center of all evil in the Saga.

The point is, I think that Mace Windu and Palpatine each met their match. It was pure luck (or FATE ) that Mace won. It was DESTINED to happen, to present a moment of choice for Anakin.

 

............

** showers MaceWindu_PhD with applauses **

yes,yes, to master MaceWindu_PhD you listen,hit the nail on the head he has.

 

I totally agree with your analysis. This scene is truly about Anakin. Like you stated, it was critical to have Mace as the legit victor because if Anakin chose wisely, the saga could have ended right there. *salute*

 

Rick McCallum says that everyone loses one fight in the film.


*snap*
THAAAAAT was the person who said it.

I knew a long time ago that someone had stated that everyone loses at some point and time. I just couldnt remember WHO said it.

Thanks.