*OFFICIAL THREAD* Obi-Wan Kenobi Ep III Discussion Thread--Part 6

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by naw ibo, Dec 20, 2001.

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  1. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    The characters are defined by their relationship to each other.
    Neither is really anything consequential distinctively without the direct influence of the opposing characterization. They are ideological, thematic, figurative, and esoteric counterparts. Two halves to one whole. They are symbiotic, living and growing off of one another.

    If not for Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker would be a talented slave in Watto's junk shop, flying the chickies around in his custom built speeder every JabbaDay.

    If not for Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi would be merely a nameless, faceless, very typical, ordinary Jedi among a sea of Jedi.

    Their collective fates and destinies are forever intertwined and dependent on one another. Without Obi-Wan Kenobi there is no Anakin Skywalker. Without Anakin Skywalker there is no Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    They are Bonnie and Clyde.
    Fred and Ethel Mermon.
    Esther and Fred Sanford.
    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.
    George and Gracie.
    Hawkhead and bitching.
    Kirk and Spock.
    Tonto and The Lone Ranger.
    Tarzan and Jane.

    They are Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker.
  2. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I doubt that. Obi-Wan was always going to be a great Jedi. (not that he exists outside of GFFA fictional universe) but none the less, even going by what you say--how does that explain your statement about "passion and conviction"? Obi-wan was who he was, he didn't change so much over the course of the films in terms of his basic character that he wouldn't have been those things even if he was a "nameless faceless Jedi". And I doubt he would have been because he'd always have had those characteristics. He didn't even know Anakin much when he fought and defeated Darth Maul, Anakin had nothing to do with that. That greatness was in him even then, so it's doubtful he ever would have been "nameless and faceless" after that because he was still the guy who faced and defeated, as a padawan, the first Sith to show up in a thousand years and after that the expectations on him always would have been greater.
  3. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Easily. The "Chosen One" was Obi-Wan's protegee'.
    Above all else he desired Anakin to succeed,and manifest the whispered Prophecy
    Anakin represented the fire and passion in Obi-Wan's life.
    Anakin gave Obi-Wan purpose and intent. What is the teacher without the student? Absolutely nothing. Empty knowledge and wisdom.

    Sure, had Anakin not come along, Obi-Wan would have eventually taken on another Padawan, maybe some nameless ,faceless Jedi like Ferrari Yon Pondarosa but, so what?
    Obi-Wan would have lived a very ordinary, uninspired, typical Jedi-life. Anakin changed Obi-Wan. His entire demeanor and attitude. Even Stover alludes to this in the novel. A teacher learns as much as he teaches. Without Anakin Skywalker, and merely some other random Jedi as a Padawan, Obi-Wan would have evolved into a very different man, as Stover says, a "lesser" man.
    We are defined not by our successes but rather by our adversities in life. And more importantly how we face them. Anakin Skywalker represented the ultimate challenge to Obi-Wan Kenobi. The greatest challenge of his entire life. Would he rise to meet this challenge? Or would he fail and be unable to influence Anakin in any measurable way?

    Anakin Skywalker molded the man Obi-Wan Kenobi is far more than a Qui-Gon Jinn or Yoda.


    Likewise, the significance of Obi-Wan Kenobi to Anakin Skywalkers life is beyond measure. Obi-Wan represents the calm sea among the temultuous storm that is Anakin's life. The direct and most relevant harbinger of Anakin's youthful dreams. The catalyst to strive for everything he hoped for his entire life. The means by which his dreams would be realized.

    Even when their relationship ends on the shores of Mustafar, years upon
    years later, the influence of both still resonates on the other.
    Stover suggests they were "more intimate than lovers." Look at the regard Darth Vader holds Obi-Wan Kenobi in, the respect, despite Obi-Wan personally being responsible for maiming him.
    Look at the regard Obi-Wan holds Anakin Skywalker in, still fondly remembering the good times between then despite Anakin robbing Obi-Wan of everything he ever knew and cared for. His entire way of life decimated by a former friend.

    Lucas intentionally associates the two. Anakin is Obi-Wan's perfect foil. They are the antithesis of one another. Obi-Wan is the hero, Anakin Skywalker the anti-hero. Neither truly matters without the other. All significant character growth stems from their respective interaction. They are colossals. Influencing entire galaxies by their choices. By their actions. By the repercussions of their actions.
    We are who we associate with. And these two characters spent their entire lives together. Once that ended, both lived the remainder of their days in seclusion and exile. Obi-Wan a clay hutt, Anakin a black suit of armor.
    At appropriately at the very end of the saga, when all is made right again, the first thing you see is those two characters united again, Anakin and Obi-Wan side by side resuming the relationship they had years earlier.
  4. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Well Stover can say whatever he wants, it doesn't make it true. Obi-Wan did not change that much in terms of his basic characteristics. As I said he took out Darth Maul before Anakin Skywalker ever had any kind of substantial influence on himself as a person. That was a measure of what he was made of. It sets him apart, shows him to be "worthy of note" in his own right. The idea that he'd just have been some nameless faceless Jedi without Anakin is rather without basis actually.

    Obi-Wan's basic character was set in TPM and did not substantially change in that regard. Yes he grew more mature and experienced but the basis of who he was did not. Honestly in the end, aside from the details, when it came to who Obi-wan was everything many of us here said he'd be after TPM was released is exactly what he was in terms of the content and strength of his character. He had all the characteristics there in TPM, just in somewhat nascient form. His devotion, his belief, his courage, his humility(yes despite the youthful cockiness he did have humility, see apology scene and the fact that he always did what Qui-Gon said even when he didn't necessarily agree), his sense of honor and duty, his sense of humor, his ability to get along with the people he was serving(he got along with the Nubians by the few appearances he had, Qui-Gon was the one who had the problem with them). Honestly there isn't a single thing I can think of that Anakin "changed" in him. He'd have been all those things without Anakin Skywalker as his padawan.

    Looking at purely from a structural writing sense--that's true. If it is Anakin's story(though originally it was supposed to be Obi-Wan's, Vader was more the thing that tied Luke and Obi-Wan's stories together but Obi-wan was supposed to be the focus on the first half originally, not Anakin Skywalker's fall--Anakin existed to be a student of Obi-Wan's, Obi-Wan did not exist to be Anakin's teacher) then obviously if he wasn't Anakin's teacher, he'd not have much reason to be in the story in any prominent fashion.

    But as a "character" in and of himself, looking at his characteristics as established in TPM before Anakin had any personal influence on him--Obi-Wan would have been a great Jedi, no matter who his student was. Because he has all the traits to be one, right from the beginning when he senses the greater trouble that his master Qui-Gon does not.
  5. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I'm with naw. Obi-Wan was already going to be a great Jedi. Only the war and Anakin made him 'famous'. If peace had been kept in the Republic, Obi-Wan might have gone down as one of the great knights of the Temple, but not very well known outside political circles and the Temple. After all, how often does a great diplomat become a hero?:

    Hobbes: We always play war. Why don't we ever play peace?
    Calvin: Not enough role models.

    It's hard to get the public wow'ed up about someone nicknamed 'The Negotiator' which Obi-Wan still would have been being trained in diplomacy.

    Anakin and the war merely drove Obi-Wan onto the front page news as the 2nd half of a derring-do pair in the war. As Obi-Wan says, someone has to be the poster boy (odd expression for a paperless GFFA) and Anakin is perfect for pop-culture public consumption: reckless, daring, handsome, young and always a winner.

    Obi-Wan already had his 'passion'. It just wasn't a passion that's able to be commecialized.

  6. astroanna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2002
    star 4
    Just my two cents...(for what they're worth....I guess about two cents... :p)

    I think the fates that are intertwined here are Obi-Wan Kenobi's and the entire Skywalker family's...hear me out on this...

    Obi-Wan trained Anakin for thirteen years, their lives (as was stated) became inextricably intertwined...

    Obi-Wan was also there when the second generation of Skywalkers came into the world (Luke and Leia) and was the one who volunteered (let me repeat) VOLUNTEERED to look after and take care of Anakin's only boy, Luke...

    Years later, Obi-Wan once again crosses paths with a Skywalker, the same child he vowed to protect...and he set him upon the path to becoming a Jedi knight...

    Moreover, he is an integral part of the entire rescue operation to save....wait for it.....the second Skywalker twin!!!!

    And why was he part of that operation to begin with? Because he was good friends with Leia's adoptive father who (evidently) told her to contact the "old hermit on Tatooine" if she ever got into serious trouble...

    Kenobi and Skywalker, indeed... :)

    (BTW, I love, love, love, that Obi-Wan is referred to as the Negotiator...it reinforces the idea that Obi-Wan prefers nonviolent solutions to problems but, obviously, his skills as a warrior in ROTS and in the rest of the saga clearly demonstrate that he can, and will, fight for what he believes in... *sigh* [face_love])
  7. Kici Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 3
    Obi-Wan is what you call "quietly heroic." His relationship with Anakin did shape him. That's for certain. Even with his flaws, there's something about the character that appeals on a basic level.
  8. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Through Bothan spies I was able to obtain secret data shhh. Heh heh.


    Just a quick observation:

    I recently noticed yet another example of Obi-Wan's versatility and adaptability.

    In the battle against Grievous, Obi-Wan incorporated BOTH methods Dooku employed against him previously.

    Initially, he eliminated one of Grievous' sabers ( and one hand of four ) by using a technique Dooku implemented in AOTC, the "glide", or sliding your blade down an opponents blade.

    Secondly, after Obi-Wan dispensed with two of Grievous' hands and sabers, he Force threw Grievous' ass all the way across the docking bay
    into the catwalk high above.

    It's a pity Obi-Wan didn't have an oppurtunity to duel to the death against Dooku one final time.
    It matters little though, I've already smoked the old Counts ass numerous times on the ROTS video game, not only as Power-Wan Kenobi, but even Old Ben. Heh heh. So fret not, I've more than settled the score for the home team.
  9. Old Juan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 1999
    star 4
    Heck, Old Ben is the best character on that game hands down.
  10. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I'm glad to hear that those of you with gaming capabilities are using your powers wisely. :)

    And good catches on the Dooku moves joshuavance. Will definitely have to watch out for that next time.
  11. Old Juan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 1999
    star 4
    I know this isn't Obi-Wan related per se but since Christian Bale has worked with Ewan if figured I'd make a mention.


    BATMAN BEGINS ROCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I can't tell you how elated I am that we finally have a film worthy of the character of Batman. Bale did an awesome job of portraying both Bruce Wayne and Batman and he is by far hands down the best out of all four actors now that have played the character. It's also amazing the transformantion Bale had to undergo for the role because he signed on has he was finishing the Machinist in which he weighed a mere 125 pounds and had to pack on 100 pounds in order to get to the proper size of Bruce/Bats.
  12. Kici Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 3
    Oh yeah. Ewan and Christian had their tongues down each others' throats in the uncut version of Velvet Goldmine. They're definitely familiar with each other. :eek: They don't seem insecure about their masculinity. Obi-Wan and Batman exposed. Didn't Bale have a classic line on late night? Yeah, we made out for 2 hours for the camera then Ewan never called or sent flowers, god d@mn him. =D=
  13. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, we made out for 2 hours for the camera then Ewan never called or sent flowers, god d@mn him.

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] Ewan, always a heartbreaker [face_love]

    Good news about Batman. Wish I liked the series enough to care one way or the other.
  14. UltimateObi-Wan_987 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2005
    star 4
    Hi there, I'm new to this, so bear with me.

    First off, no matter what it sounds like I say, I have been, and forever will be, an Obi-Wan Kenobi supporter. The series wouldn't be the same without him, and he is one of the greatest Jedi ever, in my opinion.

    Now, down to the dirt. Going in to Episode III, I was so excited. I really wanted to see how the whole Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship played out. At the beginning they had to be like father and son, and at the end they had to be arch enemies. I wanted to see how the shift would occur, and I was not dissapointed. The only thing that somewhat dissapointed me was...eek...Ewan McGregor's portrayal:( I love Ewan as an actor, and I have loved watching him develop Obi-Wan Kenobi into his own character, but for me, when he discovers that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, it kind of seemed like he shut his emotions out and just stated his feelings instead of expressing them. "I can't watch any more"...yeah, I get how it's heartbreaking to see your student throw everything you've taught him over the last 13 years out the window, but the way he said it didn't sound very convincing. He did, however, make up for it with his "You were the Chosen One!" speech, so I can't put the performance down anymore. That scene was my favorite in the whole movie, and Ewan definitely nailed it that time. I just wish he could have put more emotion in when he first finds out Anakin has turned.

    Okay, bashing aside, overall I think that Obi-Wan did what needed to be done. I've had people ask me why he didn't kill Anakin at the end of their duel, but it's fairly self explanitory: could you, in the same situation, kill your brother? Even though he did wrong, he's still your brother. You can't stop loving them because of a choice they made; unfortunately, human emotions are very complicated, and they aren't usually undone by one choice and its consequences. Love doesn't end because you disagree with a decision made; it stays in your heart and it hurts, but it doesn't go away.

    If anyone has any input or response, please, let me know.
  15. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    ultimate

    when he discovers that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, it kind of seemed like he shut his emotions out and just stated his feelings instead of expressing them. "I can't watch any more"...yeah, I get how it's heartbreaking to see your student throw everything you've taught him over the last 13 years out the window, but the way he said it didn't sound very convincing.

    Agree. I was very disappointed with that scene as well. I was wanting absolute emotion here - all the stages of grief - shock, disbelief, denial, then grieving, but all we saw was a blank look. Ewan tried to give it a little more at the end, where he is telling Yoda he cannot kill Anakin (great little dialogue for people who think Obi-Wan or Yoda thought their teachings were wrong - there are only two Jedi left in the galaxy possibly and Obi-Wan is still looking to Yoda to both instruct and direct him: "Send me after the emperor.") but for the most part he might as well have been watching cable.
  16. Kenobis_Babe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 2
    Welcome! :) My first reaction to the scene was similar to yours, but the more I thought about it I realized that I felt like that because I had read the novelization first, which I really enjoyed. What stood out was when he was desperately trying to contact other Jedi and getting no response; or thinking about the younglings and how they took them from their families and promised to take care of them, the shaking would start. Reading about his reaction was so touching.

    So his reaction in the movie was quite a departure from that, but I think that was shock and a bit of denial. I think it did sorta work in the end, because although it could seem emotionless---Yoda and Obi-wan being the Jedi that they are knew they had a job to do and put much of what they were feeling to the side for a moment. That made his final confrontation with Anakin all the more poignant, because he takes a deep breath and then blasts Anakins' traitorous ass.
  17. UltimateObi-Wan_987 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks for the feedback all.

    Jovieve: I'm glad that I'm not the only one slightly disappointed with that scene. I really wanted to literally have a pain in my heart, but it just wasn't there. Oh well, can't blame the guy for trying, right?

    Kenobis_Babe: I envy you - I didn't read the novelization; I couldn't bring myself to do it. I found out everything I could about Ep II before it came out, and it kind of ruined the movie for me, so I avoided that alltogether this time around. Unfortunately, I STILL haven't read the novelization. I hope that scene is as good as you make it out to be.

    Thanks for the comments y'all. Keem them coming!
  18. flenchgrain Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    I was also dissapointed at first but I chalked it up to Obi-Wan putting on a good jedi face in front of Yoda. Duty first.
  19. Kici Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 3
    Obi-Wan was the quintessential Jedi. Strong to the last. He wasn't going to lose it in front of his master. When he wept for Qui-Gon, he was alone.
  20. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    7th viewing note:

    On Order 66

    Even though Anakin has already jacked Mace and pledged himself to Sidious' teachings, Sidious makes sure that the first clone called to start the ball rolling on Order 66 is Cmdr Cody on Utapau.

    Sidious wants Obi-Wan gone. No matter what else has happened. Sidous considers him that much of a threat to him through Anakin.
  21. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Another viewing note:

    Exactly how strong is Anakin? In the scene on board the Invisible Hand, in the elevator shaft, Anakin is holding onto the side of the shaft with his droid arm ONLY with the full weight of Obi-Wan hanging on his back AND Palpatine hanging onto his boot.

    I guess the better question would be - to what is Anakin's artificial arm fused that it can hold so much weight?
  22. Seanan_Antilles Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    Hey Everyone, I have an Obi-Wan question, so I thought I'd try here. It pertains to EU, of which I know very little. I thought I saw on another topic, that in the EU at least, Obi-Wan had either been in love with a fellow Jedi or something along those lines... anyone know anything about that? Can someone enlighten me, and tell me if this is true and which of the many books, comics whatever it might be in?

    Thanks,

    Seanan.
  23. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Hey Everyone, I have an Obi-Wan question, so I thought I'd try here. It pertains to EU, of which I know very little. I thought I saw on another topic, that in the EU at least, Obi-Wan had either been in love with a fellow Jedi or something along those lines... anyone know anything about that? Can someone enlighten me, and tell me if this is true and which of the many books, comics whatever it might be in?

    It is EU in the Jude Watson scholastic series of books for pre-teens. Obi-Wan falls in love twice. The first time he falls in love is with a girl 'freedom fighter' on a planet in the middle of a civil war and this story is in the Jedi Apprentice series. The 2nd time he falls in love is with a fellow Jedi girl and this story is in the single release of 'Secrets of the Jedi', also by Jude Watson.
  24. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    You guys tread carefully,

    Had Obi-Wan upon learning who the traitor was, collapsed and curled up into the fetal position, sobbing incessantly at the outrage while sucking on his thumb, it would have reflected terribly on the character, and everyone and his brother would have percieved Obi-Wan as a very weak man. We would be apologising for such an outburst forever.

    That was hardly the time for pity parties. There would be plenty of time for reflection later during exile. Within the context of the film, it was played straight and was effective. As it stands, it's a lump in the throat moment as it should be. Ewan had tears in his eyes, and his voice cracked, "Oh I can't watch it anymore." Obi-Wan didn't have the time or luxury to indulge his grief, bigger things were occuring than the loss of his former student to the Darkside. An Empire was being forged,and Obi-Wan's immediate concern was the fate of any remaining Knights.

    Oh, and Obi-Wan's a hard core MO-FO too so, that always helps.
  25. LuvObi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 3
    Did any of you guys notice when Obi-Wan was telling Padme about Anakin turning to the dark side and killing younglings at the temple, his voice was cracking? It was very subtle but very well acted. You are able to see how hurt and broken-hearted he was because of it. So Ewan's portrayal of Obi-Wan's reaction to Anakin's portrayal was more on the subtle side. He wasn't the type to have an emotional breakdown and cry but he was very clearly hurt and shocked over Anakin's betrayal in subtle ways like refusing to kill Anakin and his voice cracking when talking about it. He only let himself get more emotional during the "you were the chosen one" scene when his duty was done.
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