*OFFICIAL THREAD* Obi-Wan Kenobi Ep III Discussion Thread--Part 6

Fettmaster - I had exactly the same scenario in mind. Obi-Wan in despair, Anakin is running rampant, the Jedi are falling and he is blaming himself. He feels he has let down his entire Order and especially his beloved master. And Qui-Gon appears to give him some sort of comfort or advice.

Naw - I hope Qui-Gon will stay away from the fight scene as well, but I'm afraid that "Anakin! Anakin! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" has something to do with the fight scene. The tie to the episode III George was talking about.

 

Some crazy talk overread:

By the way, anyone have any thoughts on that wild speculation I read on some thread about Obi-Wan being brother to Owen after all?

They tie the 3 tombstone thing to this crazy theory. Shmi's tombstone, Clieg Lars' first wife's tombstone and the smaller tombstone. Since Clieg and his first wife gave up their son to the Jedi they found it easier to count him as dead.

Someone else pointed out the coincidence on Mark Hamill having a dimpled chin as does Hayden Christenson and Ewan McGregor is famous for the cleft in his chin.

Coincidence by the casting agent?

 

Bump.

 

Leave it to the Star Wars junkies to analyze every minor detail of a movie.

The amusing part of that speculation is that it would make Obi and Ani step-brothers, and I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that some of the earliest incarnations of Star Wars were about two brothers.

Now, for the most part I don't believe that Obi and Owen will turn out to be related, but it would (at least in my opinion) make for a neat little twist.

 

Up.

 

I think the Obi-Wan/Owen brother connection will play out. The OS also suspiciously omits Obi's homeworld. It doesn't say "unknown" like other characters; it simply doesn't exist. 'Cause if they said Tatooine it would be obvious. The OS denies Obi and Owen as brothers, but why wouldn't they. Check it out. If they are brothers, then most likely Obi contacted his father between I and II and told him about Shmi. Maybe asked if he could do anything to protect her - buy her and free her, etc. Anakin will learn this and come to blame Obi for her death.

Also, GL likes to play these subtle name games. If Obi's real name is Ben Lars, then his Jedi name is a combination of Owen and Ben: O - B for Ben - wen.

Also, just checked OS for Owen. His homeworld says Ator; Tatooine. Cleigg Lars is just Tatooine. Says his mother died when he was very, very young. Remincient of Leia's line in RTJ.

 

GL6410 - interesting.

Hmmm. We've discussed this on the AOTC board under the Official Obi-Wan Ep. II and III board as well.

Obi-Wan in 5 movies is still immaculate. He is the consummate Jedi. He was raised and trained in the Jedi Temple. The audience knows NOTHING about his background. There was the brother link to Tatooine but it was not included in the movies and thus not 'canon'. Otherwise no one really knows about his background. Perhaps that's kept anonymous to keep his character's 'Jedi purity' from being compromised by any ties to anyone other than those closest to him - Qui-Gon and Anakin and Luke. Perhaps as you say, George may pull a rabbit out of hat in III.

 

Obi-Wan HAS to make a serious mistake in Ep. 3 that leads to Anakin's downfall. Obi-Wan is a tragic hero, and tragic heroes have a fatal flaw. In the OT, Ob-Wan?s flaw appeared to be pride ? as in ?I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.? But in TPM, Obi-Wan?s decision to train Anakin were motivated by loyalty to his master, not pride an arrogance.

Upon further reflection, it appears that Obi-Wan is loyal to a fault, and it is his loyalty is his weakness(much as Palpatine?s weakness is his overconfidence and Luke?s overconfidence is his faith in his
friends).

In the end of AOTC, Yoda (or Mace, I forget) asks Obi-Wan where Anakin is. He says he is escorting Amidala back to Naboo ? then he quickly changes the subject. Just a speculation here but: I think he
KNEW Anakin was planning to marry Padme, and his subsequent comments were intended to keep his thoughts from betraying him.

Since 3 years will pass between AOTC and Ep.3, it is almost certain that Anakin will be found out. By the time Ep.3 begins, Anakin will already have been expelled from the Jedi order, while Obi-Wan will be
reprimanded by the counsel for protecting Anakin ? but not expelled, at least not before Ep.3 begins.

 

GrandMoffTalking:

Re: Obi-Wan HAS to make a serious mistake in Ep. 3 that leads to Anakin's downfall.In the OT, Ob-Wan?s flaw appeared to be pride ? as in ?I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.? But...played out in TPM...Upon further reflection, it appears that Obi-Wan is loyal to a fault, and it is his loyalty is his weakness (much as Palpatine?s weakness is his overconfidence and Luke?s overconfidence is his faith in his friends).

George obviously has changed his mind about Obi-Wan's place in the scheme of the blame. It looked, as you said, from the OT that Obi-Wan was fully to blame for Anakin's fall due to his pride and poor teaching and his guilt was earned. In the PT, it now looks as if Obi-Wan's only 'failing' is his compassion for Anakin and his love and respect and as you said, loyalty, to and for his old master's desires. His guilt is self-imposed and not earned. The fault seems to be going to Qui-Gon for finding the boy and Anakin for ignoring his training and choosing the wrong path (being responsible for his own actions). Which I think is a better lesson to learn - personal responsibility. Obi-Wan could teach Anakin all he wanted, but it was up to Anakin to accept the teachings and use them.

In the end of AOTC...[Mace]...asks Obi-Wan where Anakin is. He says he is escorting Amidala back to Naboo ? then he quickly changes the subject. Just a speculation here but: I think he KNEW Anakin was planning to marry Padme, and his subsequent comments were intended to keep his thoughts from betraying him

I agree on Obi-Wan changing the subject. Perhaps he and Yoda had a talk, because Yoda saw Anakin and Padme embrace in the hanger at the end of AOTC too. In the book -thus EU - Obi-Wan told Mace he feared Anakin's attachment to Padme, so EU-wise Mace knows as well. I don't think he knew Anakin was going to marry Padme, I think he thought he sent Anakin off with Padme to say goodbye and get her out his system however he could. I think the marriage will be a surprise.

Since 3 years will pass between AOTC and Ep.3, it is almost certain that Anakin will be found out. By the time Ep.3 begins, Anakin will already have been expelled from the Jedi order, while Obi-Wan will be reprimanded by the counsel for protecting Anakin ? but not expelled, at least not before Ep.3 begins.

Anakin can't keep bad dreams from his master much less a 3 year old marriage. Now on another thread somewhere, it was suggested Anakin uses his growing Dark Side talents to 'cloud' his marriage to Padme. I thought that was clever.

Otherwise, Anakin will either be quickly found out, or the war will be too distracting for the Jedi to care or for Obi-Wan to tell anyone - as you say. It would not be wise for the Jedi Council to expel a powerful, talented and undisciplined loose cannon like Anakin. I think he will resign when not given his Knighthood and go work for Palpatine.

 

Jovieve:

Thanks for the feedback.

The reason I think Obi-Wan should be guilty of protecting Anakin is it would provide an opportunity to 1) justify a bit of guilt on his part for Anakin's fall and 2) justify his reputation in the OT for recklessness. Of course, what appeared to be recklessness was actually a form of loyalty (much like Obi-Wan's threat to defy the counsel and train Anakin at the end of TPM, despite his own misgivings about training Anakin).

Also, like you said, there is NO WAY Anakin could keep the secret from Obi-Wan. However, he could keep the matter a secret from the Counsel, at least for awhile, as long as Obi-Wan protected him.

Finally, and I might be reading WAY too much into this, but didn't you find it odd that when he is discussing Anakin's feelings for Padme he warns Anakin that "your thoughts betray you." He doesn't say "You are forbidden to marry" or anything to that effect. It's almost as though he's saying "I'm not telling you it's a good idea to fall in love, but if you're going to anyway, do a better job hiding it."

Just a thought.

 

What do you mean, GMT? Right after he says "Your thoughts betray you" he says "You have made a committment to the Jedi Order. A committment not easily broken". It's the same thing as saying "You are forbidden to marry". Anakin was trying to change the subject of the conversation from his dreams of his mother, so he goes to something "lighter", how intoxicating Padme is, but Obi-Wan realizes it isn't simply a crush that he can brush aside with a joke because Anakin's thoughts give him away, he's thinking of "having" Padme.(I don't mean that in a sexual way), being attached and possessed of her as Jedi are not allowed to be. Just as Obi-Wan knew his dreams were of his mother, so he knows his feelings for Padme are treading on dangerous ground.

Being "mindful" doesn't mean to "hide", being mindful means to be aware of the full implications of them, to analyse them in context of what you know of others and yourself. In Luke's case, he had to be mindful of them to realize that these feelings could be used against him, so he must attempt to keep them hidden from the Emperor. In this case, Obi-Wan isn't telling Anakin to be mindful here to hide them, he's saying basically "I know what your thoughts on this subject are, they have betrayed your true intentions and that sort of stuff isn't allowed".

 

Grand Moff -

Yoda knows about Anakin and Padme. Obi-Wan would have to perjure himself in front of the Council. He would have to lie to them for Anakin's sake and for myself I do not believe for an instant Obi-Wan would do that. For Obi-Wan to 'protect' Anakin's marriage would go against everything IMHO I believe Obi-Wan believes in. He would NOT support this, knowing darn well how emotionally impulsive and volatile Anakin already is. He can't possibly believe a marriage will do anything other than distract Anakin even further from his duties. Anakin is already foundering in his duties as a Jedi as a single Padawan and a marriage is supposed to improve things? An emotional bond with someone other than a fellow Jedi that benefits only Anakin goes against everything the Jedi represent.

And yes, I think you're reading too much into that sentence. Obi-Wan is warning Anakin to be mindful of where his thoughts are leading. Catch himself and nip things in the bud so to speak.

 

Well, perhaps Obi-wan is listening to his innermost loyalty to Qui-gon to train the boy at all costs. Perhaps Obi-wan believes that while at the moment it would be dangerous and reckless to give the boy any ultimatums, that he would give him some time off, but ultimately hope to train him as a full Jedi, whereby he would on his own do the right thing with Padme.

For charecter development, the new EU books for kids about young Obi-wan are pretty good. Obi-wan himself leaves the order for some hot-headed reason, and his decision and the hard-work it took to come back made him the model Jedi he is in TPM, rather than the hot-headed impulsive youth that Old Ghost Ben in ESB describes as how he used to be like when he was taught by Yoda. (in the EU, Yoda trains Obi-wan and all other padawans until the age of 13. Good old EU filling in plot holes!)

Thus, I'm not saying it's true, but it's "possible" Obi-wan thinks he can keep Anakin's secret and STILL keep him on the Jedi path in the end.

 

Jovieve:

"The fault seems to be going to Qui-Gon for finding the boy and Anakin for ignoring his training and choosing the wrong path (being responsible for his own actions)."

Interesting. Just my take...so if a police officer (a protector of peace) decides to have kids gets killed in the line of duty...and if the son has problems in the future its all his father's fault for dying and leaving him in that situation?? Sorry, I just dont agree with what you are saying. Qui-Gon did the right thing. And the ways of the council are inappropriate..Yoda and Mace say so themselves. Qui-Gon is a flexible and caring human being...someone who did the right thing. Its a characteristic we should all inspire to have.

But about Obi-Wan...I really do love the character even more now. I do think Qui-Gon should have little or no role in EpIII. Obi is his own man now...let him deal with things. He doesnt need a pat on the back from anyone, and I would rather see his own guilt (although he really shouldnt feel that guilty cuz anakin is a man and makes the choices himself) on his own face.

 

This is the coolest thread! Obi is my favorite character in the Star Wars universe.

And one of the most signifigant of course.

One of the funniest things I notice about him in the prequels is that he has an uncanny ability to predict the future and doesn't even know it.

I have a bad feeling about this - It's not about the mission, Master, it's SOMETHING ELSEWHERE, ELUSIVE.

The boy is DANGEROUS...

Why do I get the feeling YOU'RE GOING TO THE DEATH OF ME?

I do hope HE DOESn't TRY ANYTHING FOOLISH.

I hope nothing's (SOMETHING'S) HAPPENED TO HIM.

You will be expelled(or someting close to it ) from the Jedi Order!

Does anyone else notice this? It all ends up coming true!!!! unfortunately for him.

How many more predictions do you think there'll be in epIII? (hey! that rhymes! )

 

Jovieve:
"Yoda knows about Anakin and Padme. Obi-Wan would have to perjure himself in front of the Council."

Agreed, although his "perjury" could simply be his keeping quiet even though "the code" would require him to volunteer this informatin.


"He would have to lie to them for Anakin's sake... For Obi-Wan to 'protect' Anakin's marriage would go against everything IMHO I believe Obi-Wan believes in."

Agreed. Obi-Wan is loyal to the counsel and has never directly defied them. However, he hasn't had to choose between his loyalty to the Jedi and his loyalty to those closest to him before. Remember, the only occasion when he even THREATENED to defy the Jedi Counsel was when the Counsel went against the wishes of Qui Gonn. When FORCED to choose sides, he chooses the wishes of his friends over the Jedi Order.


"He would NOT support this, knowing darn well how emotionally impulsive and volatile Anakin already is."

Well, he wouldn't support it in the sense that he approved of the relationship (just as he appeared to agree with the Counsel in TPM that training Anakin was risky), but he would defend Anakin anyway. IMO, this will be the tragic flaw of Obi-Wan: he supports the tragic mistakes of his friends (Qui Gonn training Anakin, Anakin marrying Padme) EVEN THOUGH he knows they are mistakes.

Oh yeah, and I'm not saying Obi-Wan didn't try to discourage Anakin's relationship to Padme. He clearly did. What I AM saying is that he hedged a bit,kind of like they do in High School Sex-Ed class ("Dont' do it, but be careful if you do").


Oh and mtFORCEbwyou:
I hadn't noticed that before. You just might be on to something.

 

Qui Gon should not have the blame of anakin's downfall. Imagine if the Jedi did not pick the boy and the boy dropped into the hands of Palpatine instead. There would have been no redemption.

We can't really blame Obi too. We hear Anakin complaining about Obi not understanding and being over critical. This perhaps show that Obi may not be the best person to train Anakin. And if Obi was picked by the jedi since he was a baby, I think he cannot understand emotional attachments as experienced by anakin.

 

Darthbane - regarding your response to my:
"The fault seems to be going to Qui-Gon for finding the boy and Anakin for ignoring his training and choosing the wrong path (being responsible for his own actions)."

Interesting. Just my take...so if a police officer (a protector of peace) decides to have kids gets killed in the line of duty...and if the son has problems in the future its all his father's fault for dying and leaving him in that situation?? Sorry, I just dont agree with what you are saying. Qui-Gon did the right thing. And the ways of the council are inappropriate..Yoda and Mace say so themselves. Qui-Gon is a flexible and caring human being...someone who did the right thing. Its a characteristic we should all inspire to have.

I think you misread me. I said the fault goes to Qui-Gon for finding the boy. Anakin was with his mother, had friends and was relatively happy and healthy doing what he loved on Tatooine - fixing things and racing pods. He probably would have lived happily ever after on Tatooine had he not - and this is important - WON that race for Qui-Gon. If he had lost, Qui-Gon and the others would have been stranded on Tatooine. No freedom for Anakin, no Jedi training, no Vader. Vader's impact on the galaxy as a whole was minimal. He brought down the Jedi, but the rest of the falling Republic probably felt his presence very little. He was the emperor's top torpedo. He was probably only sent out on special missions, not to cow the locals

Plus Anakin didn't know Qui-Gon at all except for a few days. He had no deep relationship with him. He wasn't there when Qui-Gon was killed, certainly didn't see him get killed. He's 9 years old. He's more concerned with himself ("what happens to me now?"). Qui-Gon's a distant memory.

Mtforcebwy - It's been noticed. Obi-Wan is strong in the Unifying Force, but no one listens to him! LOL!


I sense something elusive?

Slapped down by Qui-Gon

His abilities have made him arrogant.

Slapped down by Yoda

He's not ready for this mission.

Ditto

GrandMoff - regarding: Agreed. Obi-Wan is loyal to the counsel and has never directly defied them. However, he hasn't had to choose between his loyalty to the Jedi and his loyalty to those closest to him before. Remember, the only occasion when he even THREATENED to defy the Jedi Counsel was when the Counsel went against the wishes of Qui Gonn. When FORCED to choose sides, he chooses the wishes of his friends over the Jedi Order

Yes, but look at it with this emphasis. Obi-Wan chose the wishes of a Jedi Master over the Jedi Council, to train someone to be a Jedi - he's still loyal. He wouldn't train Anakin if they were both forced to leave the Order, IMO.

Well, he wouldn't support it in the sense that he approved of the relationship (just as he
appeared to agree with the Counsel in TPM that training Anakin was risky), but he would defend Anakin anyway. IMO, this will be the tragic flaw of Obi-Wan: he supports the tragic mistakes of his friends (Qui Gonn training Anakin, Anakin marrying Padme) EVEN THOUGH he knows they are mistakes

Obi-Wan's 'recklessness' and tragic flaw may be that he cares too much for those he loves. I agree. How that is used in III, I don't know. I would think Obi-Wan had learned his lesson. He's not stupid. Anakin was all but out of control in AOTC. Perhaps Obi-Wan will think his 'soft glove' training approach is too lenient and will turn around and become strict, opposing Anakin's marriage and that will alienate Anakin even further.




Dagobah_Y - As I was saying above. I meant the blame goes to Qui-Gon for finding and freeing Anakin in the first place. Palpatine didn't even know he existed. Things might have worked out better for everyone if Anakin had just stayed on Tatooine to grow up and be a pod racer mechanic and live happily ever after with his mother. Why not? She had a happy-type ending. Living on the frontier is dangerous, but she was free and loved. What else could you want

 

Bump.

 

This is great. Obi-wan is my favorite character. I can't wait for Obi to fight anakin and defeat him. I think that this fight will be the best lightsaber duel in the entire saga. I am hoping that Obi-wan will be the MAIN character, although anakin probably will be. Obi never gets the attention that he deserves.

 

Hi Naw! Just found this thread. Good job!

In ROTJ, Obi tells Luke: "Anakin was seduced by the dark side of the Force." He also says, "He is more machine than man, twisted and evil."

And when Luke tells Vader, "Come with me", Vader replies, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."

In my view, this means that there is a dramatic change in the way Obi feels about Anakin/Vader at the end of/after III. During much of III, Anakin will still be mostly good and there will be a huge battle going on between Obi and Palps for Anakin's destiny. Obi will try desperately to beat some sense into Anakin in not taking the easier, more seductive path. If what happens to Luke in ROTJ is a mirror image of what happens to Anakin in III, then I think Dooku/Palps will capture Padme and Anakin will have to choose between sacrificing her and choosing the dark side (Luke given the same option with Leia, Han and friends on Endor). Anakin will choose the (in his opinion) more powerful Dark side (perhaps kill Dooku) in order to "save" Padme. Obi will still be sympathetic and believe in Anakin's "goodness". He will come and try to turn Anakin back. This is when the famed duel will start and Obi will soundly beat Anakin. But since he still cares deeply for Anakin, at the last moment, Obi will not be able to kill him.

Years later, when Vader has become a monster, Obi has lost all hope in Anakin. His bitter regret will be that he had not killed Anakin when he should have. I believe that is why he is so steely in his resolve that Luke has to confront and destroy the evil that is Vader. When Luke tells him "I cannot kill my own father", Obi hopelessly feels "There he is: making the same choice and mistake that I had made twenty years ago."

 

forever jedi personally, I have hard time believing that Obi-wan will regret he didn't destroy Anakin during their final duel. To me he his regret is related more to the fact he wasn't able to turn Anakin back when he tried. And regret that Anakin has lost his humanity, symbolized by the mechanical components to keep him alive.

 

Nice, forever_jedi

Cheers,
Shinjo!

 

Hey folks, I was just watching the Luke/Vader parts of ROTJ again (I think I have watched those parts a thousand times!) and I had an idea about a mirror of the scene when Vader and Luke meet on Endor, for EIII.

Luke comes to surrender to Vader, hoping that there is still good in him and that he will not turn Luke over to the Emperor. Maybe, in exactly the same way, Obi-Wan will come to talk to Vader to try to turn him. In both instances, Vader will turn Obi/Luke over to the Emperor. Prompting Obi to say "Then, my padawan is truly dead." . They will appear before the Emperor, when much like in AOTC, Obi will turn on his lightsaber against Palps, knowing it is futile and he will die, but hoping against hope, that THIS will bring Anakin back. But, the "Duel of the Fates" will strike up and Anakin will ignite his red lightsaber against Obi's green one. . The mother of all duels will begin. I think it will be Anakin who will go up against Obi first and Obi-Wan will have to defend himself. It will be so sad - with a lot of dialog - the pent-up feelings of the last 15 years. I think Obi will soundly beat Anakin but will not be able to kill him. Will Qui-Gon appear and scream "Anakin, Anakin, No....."?

I think I will cry during EIII.

 

I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this yet on this thread (if someone has i apoligize) but what should happen between Obi-wan and Dooku? There was a lot of set-up between the two characters in Attack of the Clones, ending with Dooku totally whooping Obi in their lightsabre duel, and, Obi being my favorite character, I was quite sad when he fell. Perhaps they further this relationship in episode 3 and have a rematch between the two...