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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

*OFFICIAL THREAD* Padmé's death and Leia's memories

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GLucasUSC, Nov 5, 2002.

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  1. chrischris716

    chrischris716 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 3, 2002
    thank you, loco_for_lucas
     
  2. Savle_Sostas

    Savle_Sostas Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Oct 11, 2001
    I don't discount the possiblity that Padme will die in EPIII, I just think it's unlikely. And people are right, actors are often misquoted, taken out of context or whatever, but I don't for a minute believe that Lucas would rank the Windu character above the Padme character in terms of importance, and if Lucas had meant most important Jedi he would have said that. The specualtion is still flying at the minute and if we had a better idea of the time elapsed between AOTC and EPIII we could speculate more accurately but the initial "three years between each movie" was royally dumped on by the ten year gap between TPM and AOTC. But to tie this in with other speculation, it has often been rumoured that Natalie Portman was signed up to do scenes for a re-edited ROTJ. This is rubbish and could only be done in a manner which would add sugary sentimentality to the OT. I believe she may be in ANH, but again, we'll have to wait and see.
     
  3. chrischris716

    chrischris716 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 3, 2002
    where does it say that luke was born first?
     
  4. GLucasUSC

    GLucasUSC Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 5, 2002
    Nothing says Luke was born first but where doesn't it say it? What's your point? AND the reason I'm opposed to Padme surviving Episode III is because it isnt dramatically interesting for her to survive. Believe me Im not one of those fanboy dorks who wants to see clone sof Palpatine and Boba Fett with 2 lightsabres and to see Darth Vader go out and hunt down all the jedi. I dont believe its necesarry to actually see the Jedi holocaust cause its overkill and the story would probably lose its focus. I'm saying it's more interesting to kill Padme in episode III. And you're overstepping your bounds to say I dont use the movies to cite my sources. you have no point whatsoever in that regard. I however will maintain that most of you are relying on narrow and weak examples in order to debunk my theories.
     
  5. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    I however will maintain that most of you are relying on narrow and weak examples in order to debunk my theories


    But you're relying on assumptions you made on your own. The others are using the film and what is apparent based solely on the film, while you're going out of your way to assume your logic will come into play for a moment that is not only lazy for screenwriting and will provide an inconsistency, but be an unnecessary death that is already explained in a future episode.
     
  6. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    These points have been discussed in-depth throughout the 27 pages of PADME'S FATE, VERSION 2.0.

    A few things, to reiterate much of what I have said there:

    1. ROTJ novelization (with all its extrapolations and expanded dialogues) is NOT canon - only what actually appeared in a movie is factored in by Lucas

    2. Knowing that Padme has cheated death onscreen (decoys, twists of fate, etc), future viewers of 1-6 will keep expecting her to show up during 4&5; her failure to do so will impair the viewing experience for "those who want that shoe to drop"

    3. Padme cannot die in the Alderaan Death Star blast. She died when Leia was "very young," not the 20-year old senator standing with Tarkin and Vader

    4. Leia's words to Luke MUST be true - if she is referring to a "very beautiful" decoy, or something, THE DIALOGUE IS A DUMB MISTAKE - IT HAS NOT SERVED ITS INTENDED PURPOSE OF EVOKING PADME, AND GIVING LUKE CLOSURE BEFORE HIS LIFE-OR-DEATH DUEL

    5. It would be extremely bad storytelling to have Padme just cry herself to death offscreen (is THAT in her nature?!)

    6. Many viewers will NOT surmise that Leia has a "magical inverse Force link to her mother's memory." I am reasonably intelligent, and I never considered that - A PERSON OF INTELLIGENCE WILL SOONER LOOK FOR, AND GRASP, A "PLOT HOLE," before they will MAKE EXCUSES AND "EXPLAIN AWAY" DISCREPANCIES - bestowing powers upon characters that they are not known to possess.

    MY SOLUTION:

    PADME IS KILLED ONSCREEN -

    THEN, FOR A TIME, SHE APPEARS ONSCREEN AS A SPECTRAL, GHOST-LIKE VISAGE THAT SADLY LOOKS OVER LITTLE LEIA.
     
  7. Grilled-Sarlacc

    Grilled-Sarlacc Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    This thread can stay around since it is really more focused on Leia's memory, rather than simply how and by what means Padme meets her death.
     
  8. JediBendu

    JediBendu Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 1999
    6. Many viewers will NOT surmise that Leia has a "magical inverse Force link to her mother's memory." I am reasonably intelligent, and I never considered that - A PERSON OF INTELLIGENCE WILL SOONER LOOK FOR, AND GRASP, A "PLOT HOLE," before they will MAKE EXCUSES AND "EXPLAIN AWAY" DISCREPANCIES - bestowing powers upon characters that they are not known to possess.

    So all we have to do is make is clear to the audience that there is this Force link.

    Thus (and you all knew it was coming)

    The Leia-Magic-Force-Baby Theory (LMFB Theory)

    One scene, 15 seconds, plot holes closed...

    On Dagobah:
    -----------------------------------

    Padme, exhausted from giving birth, holds Leia in her arms. The baby gazes up at her seriously and then smiles.

    Padme: It's almost like she knows me already.

    Obi-Wan (Holding Luke): The connection between a mother and a daughter is extremely powerful.

    Yoda(ominously): So too between the father and the son.

    Padme: (sadly) Anakin...

    ------------------------------------

    This resolves a number of issues.

    1. Why luke feels he know Dagobah

    2. Why Leia remembers her Mum and Luke does not.

    3. Why vader senses the force in Luke and not in Leia.

    4. Why Obi-Wan and Yoda use Luke to confront Vader rather than Leia

    5. Why Leia can be hidden in plain sight of Vader whilst Luke must be hidden away on Dagobah.

    All of this because luke has a powerful link to Anakin, whilst Leia is closely linked to Padme.

    So Padme can die at any point after this. And unlike Darth_Howell_III's Padme-Magic-Force-Ghost Theory (PMFG Theory) it does not rely on ascribing force powers to someone who shows no sign of them anywhere else in the saga. That would be like Lando Calrissian suddenly using the Force to blow up the Death Star II.
     
  9. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    "PMFG Theory..."

    "Pretty - M - F - Good" Theory... lol

    (See SLJ's LightSaber for a translation)

    I have no quarrel with your Theory, Bendu - I fully admit it could work nicely that way - but I think mine is a little more intriguing.
     
  10. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 12, 2002
    Incidently, the PMFG theory has more to do with Anakin's power than Padme's power (or lack thereof).

    No one - with the possible exception of George - knows why certain people reappear. The record COULD, at this stage, still clearly show that it is a tangible link to The Chosen One that can bring people back from the Other Side.

    The fact that George filmed (but alas, cut) two scenes in AOTC, alluding to the fact that Padme is Force-sensitive, factored heavily into the PMFG Theory.
     
  11. JediBendu

    JediBendu Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 1999
    Well actually Luke is the best link between al the ghosts we've seen thus far.

    That's why Yoda hung on until Luke turned up and why Vader flung the Emperor down a shaft, not just wringing his scrawny neck, so that Emperor couldn't piggyback on Luke's power and live on in the Force.

    However you must obviously need to be force sensitive to do this trick, or otherwise all the goons Luke killed on Jabba's sailbarge would be wandering about looking a bit surprised as blue ghosts!

    [face_mischief]
     
  12. Disbeliever

    Disbeliever Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Like both Padme theories. Think the link is more believable but would prefer to see DH3's.

    DARTH HOWELL III
    What were the Padme force sensetive scenes that were cut??
     
  13. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 12, 2002
    <<<Reading the AOTC Screenplay

    ANAKIN: "Sometimes, when you believe something to be real, it becomes real..."

    (MANIACAL LAUGHTER)

    It's a clue about the Returning Trick!!
     
  14. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Disbeliever -

    From pg. 24 of the latest PADME'S FATE thread:

    Here is a link that may be of interest, theforce.net DELETED SCENES DEPOSITORY.

    http://www.theforce.net/episode2/cut/

    Each of the first two pages describes a deleted scene alluding to Padme's Force sensitivity.

    A Yoda/Padme scene is mentioned ("The Force is strong with you, Padme...")

    ...as is a scene where Anakin "teases" her about her Force capabilities. (no dialogue quoted).
     
  15. JediBendu

    JediBendu Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 1999
    The question on the PMFG Theory is why doesn't she show up at the end of Ep VI?

    Also the LMFB theory covers extra ground like Vader going after Luke, not spotting that Leia was force sensitive and the fact that Leia could be hidden in plain sight of Vader and the Emperor.
     
  16. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Let's say Padme does have some slight, unharnessed Force capabilities.

    She obviously could not "manifest" with the duration, intensity, and frequency of a fully-trained Force-wielder such as Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    She MIGHT not be able to speak... she MIGHT not be able to "travel" very far from her resting place (presumably Alderaan)... she may "run out of gas" at a given point, as Anakin recedes and Vader dominates... all plausible.

    (more)
     
  17. MadMc

    MadMc Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2002
    OK, maybe this is the wrong thread, but there's some competent people around, so just some thoughts:

    1.- if Padme would survive EP3, woulndn't it be easy for Anakin/Vader to track her down (Alderaan being a part of the Republic/Empire)?
    2.- if so, and if she had a child, wouldn't it be pretty obvious to Vader it's his?

    Only things with a strong enough impact for Anakin to completely turn (IMO):
    a)- Padme's death
    b)- supposed/faked Death of the child/children and Ani blaming Obi/Padme
    (can be ruled out as Ani doesn't seem to know of the pregnancy)
    c)- Ani believed KIA, Pabme turning to Bail, Ani returning and feeling betrayed by her
    (can also be ruled out because 2.)

    Imagine Vader asking Palpy: Where's Padme?
    P: Oh, she ran off with Bail, besides, Bail suddenly has a baby-daughter.
    V: Could this be my daughter?
    P: Naah!

    I mean both, Tatooine (being Ani's birthplanet), nor Alderaan (Bail being an prominent figure in the Senat) can't exactly be considered "hiding"!

    Please someone enlighten me :D

    Thanks and Cheers,
    Mac
     
  18. ShadowJedi05

    ShadowJedi05 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    DH3- Unfortunately, I might have to go with the fact that only the movie is strictly true canon, meaning GL doesn't have to go by the screenplay or cut scenes. If it's not in the movie and it is not put in at some future point (Ep III or a SE of Ep II) then we can rule out Padme being force sensitive b/c as of right now, according to canon, she isn't.

    MadMC- My take on it is that where else would be the best place to hide than under Vader's nose? I doubt he's ever going to want to go back to Tatooine after his mother died and Owen and Beru have kept Luke so in the dark it's not as though his powers are manifesting and screaming "Here I am!". After all, Qui-Gon didn't know Anakin was force sensitive until after meeting him. As for Alderaan, I have to admit, that one's odd. But then again, all Bail really has to say is he adopted a daughter I suppose. Though her being a senator and them not sensing it is definitely on the odd side. But maybe Vader and Palpatine just kind of stayed out of the senate after taking over since the Senate was rather redundant anyways? Not sure about that though.
     
  19. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Mac -

    You have wisely sought the counsel of Darth_Howell_III.

    You will go to the following thread:

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=8767865&page=1

    There, you will find the answers you seek.

    In short:

    Vader had a conscience.

    The little streak of good in Anakin PREVENTED Vader from revealing his kids to the Emperor.

    He lied, changed the subject, manipulated, wheedled, cajoled, and swept under the fence any reference to them.

    I PROMISE IT ALL ADDS UP - read the thread.
     
  20. Guybrush

    Guybrush Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2001
    "Samuel L. Jackson told SCI FI Wire that he is preparing for his character Mace Windu's big death scene in Star Wars: Episode III. "I know what's going to happen," Jackson said in an interview. "I gotta go there. I gotta die."

    Jackson went on to explain that he had a lunch meeting with George Lucas last month, during which time he tried to find out details of his character's impending demise. "We were just talking about stuff," Jackson said. "And then [Lucas] finally said, 'Okay, so you know you've got to die. I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to kill you yet, because I guess you're the most important guy that's going to die. In the other ones, Obi Wan is still there and Yoda's still alive and Darth is still there.' So I become the most important character that can die. I guess it's got to be pretty dynamic. So he's working that out." Star Wars: Episode III goes into production in June 2003 for a May 2005 release."

    From this news it sounds like Padme does not die.
     
  21. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Of course Lucas knows how Windu dies - give me a break!

    Jackson has lunch with Lucas, the first thing Jackson does is BLAB ABOUT THE CONVERSATION.

    Lucas is smart enough to know that JACKSON WOULD BLAB PLOT DETAILS IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

    Hence, the Ego Stroke: "Ohhhhh, you're soooooo important, I'm thinking about it sooooo much..."

    IT WORKED. Jackson had nothing to blab, but he didn't feel dissed.

    Twenty bucks says George will not return his phone calls between now and the day of shooting.

     
  22. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Shadow -

    "...we can rule out Padme being force sensitive b/c as of right now, according to canon, she isn't."

    I am not suggesting that the Cut Scenes are canon.

    But George could still introduce the "Force-sensitive Padme Angle" in Episode III.

    The Cut Scenes only suggest that George did not/does not find the idea of Padme being Force-sensitive to be too outlandish.

    The deleted scenes - highly indicative of George's mindset - dovetail nicely with my PMFG theory.

     
  23. Disbeliever

    Disbeliever Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Additionally, early scripts are not cannon, but like deleted scenes they give you a better understanding of how the story has evolved and GL's thinking.
     
  24. ShadowJedi05

    ShadowJedi05 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    DH3- I am aware of this, if you read the rest of that paragraph you might have noticed that I even said that GL could always put it back in. Nor did I ever say it was outlandish, I for one think it would be interesting, it would make Luke and Leia more interesting as well, having gotten their powers from both parents and not just the unstable Anakin.
     
  25. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 1999
    Two things I would like to mention in regards to this subject from the films as we know. I myself have supported that Padme-Amidala will not be killed on film, and this because of Leia's remembering her in ROTJ.

    But I do agree that to make the story complete it would better serve to close up everything to have her die on film :(

    Now here are those two things that could validate why Leia could actually remember her mother, and her being sad and beautiful

    "Through the Force many things you will see, the past, the future, old friends long gone"

    "The Force runs strong in your family"Yoda-ROTJ


    So through the Force one can see the past and old friends(and family possibly)long gone, and in this case it would be Leia seeing and remembering her mother.

    But also, we were told that the Force runs strong in the Skywalker family, and it appears to some degree that in AOTC we are being given that the Force is strong with Amidala, though she is not a Jedi.

    Take into account that Leia being very strong Force-sensitive even at birth as Jedi children would be anyway and along with their Midichlorian test this is why they are chosen to become Jedi hopefuls. So as others have said, Amidala would have more of a chance to look upon Leia and become in tune with her feelings and even her beauty, as opposed to Luke who would be taken away from her immediately as any Jedi baby would anyway to avoid any chance of a bond or memory.

    So with Leia spending a little more time with her mother, the images of her face and the feelings would be implanted into this very Force-sensitive baby.

    So when Luke asks her about her mother, through the Force she can see the imprints of Amidala's face and feelings as though it was happening at that moment. And imagine the depth of sadness Amidala will have though holding Leia when having to let go of Luke and dealing with the loss of Anakin.

    What am I saying?? The Force as Yoda says enables you to see the "past" and old friends(and family)long gone. And I do believe the Force can help one recall images and feelings even when one is a baby(why do you think the Jedi children are taken so early in the first place).

    Remember that in ROTJ, Leia is asked to remember her mother by Luke, and Luke says he has no memory of her. Why might this be if Amidala dies in EP III??

    I believe it is because Luke is chosen to become a Jedi some day, and Leia was intended to go with Amidala, but she will be killed shortly thereafter, she may not even make it to Alderaan. But Leia goes to Bail Organa as intended and is adopted.

    Lastly, remember that the Force enables Leia to come to know that Luke is her brother.

    "I've always known


    Darth Sin! :cool:



     
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