*OFFICIAL THREAD* Padmé's death and Leia's memories

This guy on another site suggested that Leia was confusing memories with Force visions. Yoda stated that a Force wielder can view both past and future through the Force. Leia has Force training and wouldn't know whether or not her "memories" are actual memories or Force visions.


LUKE
"...do you remember your...real mother?"

LEIA
"Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."

LUKE
"What do you remember?"

LEIA
"Just...images, really. Feelings."

LUKE
"Tell me."

LEIA
"She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad."


Baby Leia started crying when Padme died. I think that all falls into place with what happened in ROTS and what was said in ROTJ.

 

"Through the Force, things you will see, other places. The future, the past, old friends long gone."
--Yoda in ESB


This is our answer. Though it is not obvious to everyone. I do wish Padme did have a personal moment with Leia that could give you the impression that she would remember her so that it would give a clearer explaination to people who didn't catch on how the Force works sometimes.

 

^ WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

 

"1) We are shown many times in the Saga that The Force can enable one to be aware of what other people are feeling despite being planets apart: think of Yoda when Anakin slaughters the Sand People, Obi-Wan when Alderaan blows up, Yoda when Order 66 starts happening...
They are all trained Jedi. "
You don't have to be a trained Jedi to recieve Force visions. Think Anakin in TPM "seeing things before they happen." Think Luke "almost seeing" the remote. Think Leia "hearing" Luke.

"2) As an extension of this, we are shown Leia sensing Luke hanging on Cloud City, although she doesn't know herself that she knows how to do that.
Luke is the one who makes this possible, not Leia. "
Luke may initiate it, but Leia hears him. That's not just something to pass off, it's half of it.

Both Anakin and Luke recieve visions from The Force of people who are not Force sensitive (Han and Padme). (This is assuming that Anakin's dreams about Padme were in part Force related...) Regardless, we have an old-enough-to-remember-her-dreams-Leia and we have the sentient Living Force and we (may or may not) have Padme (who may or may not have retained her identity.) Only one of these parties has to initiate in order for Leia to "hear" the Force visions. Perhaps The Force did it. Perhaps Leia did it without realizing it by simply longing hard enough and honestly enough that she subconciously tapped into her Force powers. Either way works. Either way is possible.

"3) We hear Yoda teach that The Force can be used to see the past and "old friends, long gone."
I'd buy it if Leia was a little older, but :30 seconds old is too much of a stretch."
Leia could have recieved/created the "images and feelings" that she talks about at an older age.

"4) We know that identities can be retained after death, and that the dead can communicate with the living. Yoda and Obi-Wan both communicate with Qui-Gon.
Padme wasn't a Jedi, neither was leia."
Either you have to be strong with The Force and know how to retain your identity after death (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda) or you have to know somebody who has already done this, and have them show you how (Anakin.) Being a Jedi, or being able to use The Force, may or may not be a requirement. For the record, I don't think Padme retains her identity after death, but nothing says it isn't possible that Qui-Gon helps her (think of the music that plays as she's dying... it's Qui-Gon's funeral theme...)

"6) We know that Bail and Padme were friends, or at least friendly. It's foolish to think that Bail never told Leia about her mother.
The dialog is ROTJ doesn't back this up at all. LEIA remembers Padme, not the stories Bail told her. "
Yes, Leia "remembers" Padme. And she might have initiated the cause of events (interactions with The Force, or memory-creation within her, or an uncovering of her subconcious memories from in-utero, whatever... there are lots of possibilities) that led to these "memories" (just images and feelings not memories) because Bail told her about her mother.

"Leia's foster father, on the other hand, was a friend to Padme. See above. Leia knows about her real mother, maybe has even seen pictures/holograms of her. At the very least, Leia would wish she had known Padme, and thus long for a connection.
And Luke didn't? "

Luke may have wished he could have known his mother, but he knew it was impossible. He never knew her (as far as he knows). Leia, on the other hand, probably wasn't told that she never knew her mother, quite the contrary. She was, as stated above, probably told about her mother and her life and death and perhaps even shown images of her.

Luke is capable of remembering Padme to the extent that Leia does, but he doesn't know he's capable of it, so he doesn't. You can't do something if you don't know that you can. That doesn't mean you can't wish you could do it. Besides, Luke is much more pre-occupied with his father.

I like to look at it as a testament to Leia's strength, as well as t

 

when your born, you know or see nothing yet cause your only beging your life, and leia was say what anyone would think about there mother in life.

Padme isnt who leia is talking about.

Leia cant see the past or future like luke can cause she isnt a jedi.

 

It wasn't Leia who cried, it was Luke. Still, I do think that Leia was having force-assisted memories (impressions) of Padme. Leia's were the images and feelings, and Luke's were the "there is still good in him" mantra.

 

Might need a special decoder ring to decipher this sentence....but I'll do my best.

The reason we don't "know" or "see" anything yet is because we don't have the Force. You know...the Force? A major element of Star Wars? Yeah. That.

Leia has the Force, which enables this ability.

Of course it is.

Trained as a Jedi? No. Highly force sensitive? Yes.


I seriously cannot fathom how this debate is still raging on. Leia doesn't remember her real mother. Not in a physical sense, anyways. If she could remember her in a physical sense, she wouldn't say "images" and "feelings". She'd tell a tale of how her mommy took her to the circus when she was five.

Leia is seeing Padme through the Force, but she doesn't understand it.

"You have a power that I DON'T UNDERSTAND, and could never have." ~ Leia to Luke, ROTJ

Period.

 

"Padme isnt who leia is talking about."

"The man Leia called Father was obviously not her father. He is part of the group that ends up having to fight Darth Vader in the film that will be out in 2003 [laughs]. The part that I never really developed is the death of Luke and Leia's mother. I had a backstory for her in earlier drafts but it basically didn't survive. When I got to Jedi, I wanted one of the kids to have some kind of memory of her because she will be a key figure in the new episodes I'm writing. But I really debated on whether or not Leia should remember her." - George Lucas: The Annotated Screenplays

Lucas says otherwise.

"Leia cant see the past or future like luke can cause she isnt a jedi."

She is still strong in the Force, and did you already forget the post just up the page about Anakin seeing things before they happen before being trained as a Jedi?

Just because someone's not a Jedi doesn't mean they cannot use the Force. There were "Force users" before there were "Jedi". Otherwise, how did the first Jedi become a Jedi?

Leia is seeing Padme through the Force, but she doesn't understand it.

"You have a power that I DON'T UNDERSTAND, and could never have." ~ Leia to Luke, ROTJ

Let's not forget later: "I've known. Somehow, I've always known". The ability has always been there. She simply doesn't know how to consciously control it. It is this control that comes with Jedi training, but not the ability to use it. Otherwise, Anakin would have shown no special skills whatsoever.

 

The thing I don't understand, and I think most people are missing is in what Luke says in response to Leia's memories... "I have no memory of my mother." If Luke and Leia were both present when Amidala died, why should Leia have any more memory of her than Luke. I know about this whole "Force Memory" discussion, but shouldn't Luke be influenced by the same "Force Memories"? They had equal contact with their mother, in fact, Luke had more opportunity to see his mother since he was born first. If someone suggests that Leia has more memory BECAUSE she was born last, therefore having more contact with her mother, that don't jive either. I mean doesn't the 9 months prior to birth afford both children enough contact for "Force Memory"?

I believe the insinuation in Luke's comment suggests that Leia was raised by Amidala. Why else would it be relevant to the conversation? Luke is saying, "I wish I got to spend more time with mom. You got that chance and I'm a little envious." With the end to EP 3, it is clear that luke has no reason to envy Leia. They spent equal time with their mother.

 

"in fact, Luke had more opportunity to see his mother since he was born first."

It has nothing to do with what any baby saw, since their vision isn't very good at birth anyways.

"I mean doesn't the 9 months prior to birth afford both children enough contact for "Force Memory"?

The problem with your reasoning is that you presume it has anything to do with memory. What did Luke "remember" when he had visions of Bespin? What did Anakin "remember" when he had visions of his mother or Padme?

As D_Lowe pointed out, the Force allows one to see in the past and the future: this is not limited to events that the Force user already has knowledge of, otherwise he would never have been able to see Bespin.

As Yoda said, "A long time, have I watched this one". The Force allows one to see events that might otherwise not be seen. It is through this manner that Leia "sees" her mother, though apparently she is better at this than Luke.

"I believe the insinuation in Luke's comment suggests that Leia was raised by Amidala."

Well, since Luke has no clue either way, I don't see how this makes a significant distinction.

 

"Leia had just as many midichlorians as Luke did..."
Luke and Leia are both equal in force abilities mind you, and just because Luke had his 'how to be a Jedi in 21 days' course on Dagobah doesnt mean its a man vs. maggot comparison when it comes to the twins.[/quote]

I disagree. They aren't identical twins. They don't have an even distribution of anything. Otherwise, there'd be two Leias or two Lukes. Paternal twins do not share identical qualities. Luke is obviously stronger with the force and acts as a mentor to Leia. He leads her to understand her feelings because he already knows about them. He seems to know everything in Leia's history by the conversation in ROTJ.

 

"Luke is obviously stronger with the force and acts as a mentor to Leia."

He is trained. She is not. This is an unfair comparison.

"He leads her to understand her feelings because he already knows about them. He seems to know everything in Leia's history by the conversation in ROTJ."

He's asking about her experience, because he doesn't have a clue. He even states he has no memories of his mother, so how could he possibly know what's going through Leia's mind. If he knew this, then he would have her memories.

 

I disagree. They aren't identical twins. They don't have an even distribution of anything. Otherwise, there'd be two Leias or two Lukes. Paternal twins do not share identical qualities. Luke is obviously stronger with the force and acts as a mentor to Leia. He leads her to understand her feelings because he already knows about them. He seems to know everything in Leia's history by the conversation in ROTJ.

"At the center of the movie is a lot of exposition, it's a lot of explaining what has happened, and why things are the way they are. In this particular case, there is a whole issue of Luke's sister, and you know, the fact that they were twins. Which is an element that has to be revealed, which comes in later, in terms of who is the 'other' that was talked about in Empire Strikes Back. And how could that person become as powerful as Luke? Well obviously if they were twins, then if she were trained, then, she has the same abilities as Luke has. That becomes an important issue, especially in terms of resolving all the love triangles."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

Lucas disagrees with you. They have the same amount of Midichlroians, even though they are not identitical twins. It's that they come from the same gentic stock, in this case, Anakin Skywalker who had a large number of Midichlorians to begin with.

 

Not to be a broken record with this, but I favor the tramautic repressed memory theory. Mainly that the reason why Luke doesn't remember Padme is that he was the one who had contact with her, he was the one whom she touched, he was the recipient of her last words, and when she died he felt it and started crying. Leia, on the other hand, was kept on the far side of the room and she did not start crying when Padme died. I think the reason why Luke doesn't directly remember her (but remembers her words) is that he was traumatized by her death and blocked out the memory.

 

"Leia doesn't remember padme, cause nor leia or luke knew padme."

Luke on Dagobah: "Still... there's something familiar about this place."

According to your reasoning, this is impossible, since Luke doesn't know of Dagobah until he lands there.

Yoda spells it out: "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."

This is the way it works. Why do you think you understand the ways of the Force better than Yoda?

Folks, Force visions don't always work perfectly. Otherwise, Palaptine would have seen that Vader was going to kill him. Remember that?

Just to give a few examples:

LUKE: But Han and Leia will die if I don't.

BEN'S VOICE: You don't know that. Even Yoda cannot see their fate. - ESB

---

VADER: Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. - [u]ESB[/u][hr]VADER: A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.

EMPEROR (no surprise): Yes, I know.

VADER (after a beat): My son is with them.

EMPEROR (very cool): Are you sure?

VADER: I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR: Strange, that I have not. - [u]ROTJ[/u][hr]EMPEROR: It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine! - [u]ROTJ[/u][/i][/b][hr][hr][i][b]"Strange, that I have not," the Emperor murmured, his eyes becoming slits. [u]They both knew the Force wasn't all-powerful-and no one was infallible with its use.[/u] It had everything to do with awareness, with vision. Certainly, Vader and his son were more closely linked than was the Emperor with young Skywalker-but, in addition, the Emperor was now aware of a crosscurrent he hadn't read before, a buckle in the Force he couldn't quite understand. "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader." - [u]ROTJ novelization[/u][/b][/i][/blockquote]Force use and training doesn't always guarantee the results one wants, especially with Force visions. Leia was able to "see" her mother, and Luke wasn't, nor has he shown any attempts to do so until talking to Leia. Luke's primary concern in all the films up until this point is his father.

 

Well, since Luke has no clue either way, I don't see how this makes a significant distinction.[/quote]
What exactly leads so many of us to believe he has no clue? If we look at the delivery and the content, you can see that Luke is gently leading Leia into a realization. He knew long before the conversation started. The whole purpose of the dialogue was to let Leia know that she was Luke's sister. I don't think anything was a surprise to Luke. He didn't react dramatically, "Oh my, you remember your mother? ".

BTW- I don't think I was off by thinking of it as a memory. Luke does ask Leia if she "remembers" her mother. Symantically, the word means to recall a memory. I don't recall or remember Leia correcting Luke. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that Leia's memories are actual memories. I understand there's a great deal of dogma in this thread and this memory/force memory thing seems to be of that type. I'd like to know if these theories are anyway substantiated by the Lucas canon. It's almost as if Star Wars fans are inventing ways for the movies to work together, even though they do not.

 

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary. [/i][/b]

Lucas disagrees with you. They have the same amount of Midichlroians, even though they are not identitical twins. It's that they come from the same gentic stock, in this case, Anakin Skywalker who had a large number of Midichlorians to begin with.[/quote]

You're going to have to help me out. Which movie and approximately what scene did Lucas say this? I need to go back and check it.

Incidentally, I doubt Lucas had any thought of Midichlorians during the original trilogy. So even if he does say it now, doesn't mean that it was true during the filming of ROTJ. I'd like to remind us of the Parsec explanation in ANH. His explanation is still weak but plausible. You gotta know that he screwed up on that one then came up with an excuse. The excuse kinda works but it's transparent. He threw in a scientific term that he wasn't quite sure of. It took him 25 years to come up with that excuse.

 

I'm replying to the "unfair" comment I made about Luke being stronger than Leia with the force. The response was that he is trained and she is not. Training has a great deal to do with strength. Olympic athletes are considered stonger than average people. What set them apart? Genetics and training. Martial artists fight eachother in contests of skill. Who is usually considered "stronger"? The person that has the training that exploits their physical abilities. I don't think it's unfair to say Luke is stronger than Leia, any more than to say Bob Sapp is stronger than me. Experience, training and natural abilities all play into what we consider strength. Sometimes, it's the training that determines a person's strength.

 

"What exactly leads so many of us to believe he has no clue?"

1) The fact that he asks Leia about her mother,

2) The fact that he admits he has no memory of her.

3) The fact that nowhere do we see Luke gain or admit to any knowledge of his mother.

4) "The man Leia called Father was obviously not her father. He is part of the group that ends up having to fight Darth Vader in the film that will be out in 2003 [laughs]. The part that I never really developed is the death of Luke and Leia's mother. I had a backstory for her in earlier drafts but it basically didn't survive. When I got to Jedi, I wanted one of the kids to have some kind of memory of her because she will be a key figure in the new episodes I'm writing. But I really debated on whether or not Leia should remember her." - George Lucas: The Annotated Screenplays

"He knew long before the conversation started. The whole purpose of the dialogue was to let Leia know that she was Luke's sister. I don't think anything was a surprise to Luke. He didn't react dramatically, "Oh my, you remember your mother? ".

Actually, he does react dramatically. He's clearly despondent because he has no memories of his mother. I don't know how you are reading all this "prior knowledge" on Luke's part into this, but there's nothing in the films or literature to support it.

"I don't recall or remember Leia correcting Luke. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that Leia's memories are actual memories."

You presume she understands the difference.

LEIA: Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power I--I don't understand and could never have.

LUKE: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has it...I have it...and...my sister has it.

Leia stares into his eyes. What she sees there frightens her. But she doesn't draw away. She begins to understand.

LUKE: Yes. It's you Leia.

LEIA: I know. Somehow...I've always known.

Now, compare this to Luke's first attempt to conciously use the Force:

LUKE: "You know, I did feel something. I could almost see the "remote."

Point being, don't have such high expections about the results of a first-time Force user.

The only thing Luke "knows" in this scene, and attempts to reveal to Leia, is that she is his sister, which he just figured out earlier with Obi-wan. The reason he asks her about mom is because he has no memories of her, and wants to see if Leia does, since they shared a mother. There's nothing here to indicate otherwise.

"I'd like to know if these theories are anyway substantiated by the Lucas canon."

It is explained in ESB:

Yoda: "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."

How much clearer does it need to get?

"It's almost as if Star Wars fans are inventing ways for the movies to work together, even though they do not."

Like the unsubstantiated "trauma" theory....

 

when your born, you know or see nothing yet cause your only beging your life, and leia was say what anyone would think about there mother in life.

Padme isnt who leia is talking about.

"Leia, do you remember your mother, YOUR REAL mother?"
--Luke Skywalker in ROTJ


Leia cant see the past or future like luke can cause she isnt a jedi.

Yet, she uses the Force in ESB and ROTJ

Luke is hanging for dear life on Bespin in ESB.

Luke - "Leia! Hear me, Leia!"
Leia - "Luke. We have to go back... I know where Luke is... Chewie just do it."

Leia uses the Force and nobody trained her how.

Han - "I'm sure Luke wasn't on that thing when it blew."
Leia - "He wasn't. I can feel it."

Again in ROTJ, Leia does it again.

 

"Leia cant see the past or future like luke can cause she isnt a jedi."

When will people learn? "Force user" and "Jedi" are not synonymous. One must be capable of using the Force before one can hope to be a Jedi. Anakin was using the Force - and seeing events before they happened, no less - long before he was ever trained as a Jedi. According to you, this is impossible.

Please watch the films before making an opinion. Thanks!

 

Hello, why are we still debating? See the quote above for the answer.

 

I have no problem saying that there are huge problems with Revenge of the Sith and the prequel trilogy in general, in terms of the continuity with the original movies. This scene is one of them. I think it could have been written better. But the trauma theory really isn't unsubstantiated. It's supported by the actual death scene ROTS when compared with the corresponding scene in ROTJ. Just because there isn't an edict from Lucasfilm or Lucas stating it directly it doesn't make it unsubstantiated. It just means that someone has to actively pay attention to the detail of the scenes instead of passively watching only for dialogue and major plot point. The thing about theories, though, is that they don't have to be proven conclusively. They just have to be credible. Trauma is a credible theory.

Evidence # 1: Baby Luke is presented to Padme. She touches him on the forehead as she tells Obi-Wan that there's still good in Anakin. The instant that Padme dies, Luke begins to cry. Never before and never again in the movie. In ROTJ, Luke demonstrates that he retained Padme's words as his mantra, as he repeats it verbatim. However, despite echoing her words, Luke has no conscious memory of his mother.

Evidence 2# Baby Leia, on the other hand, is held by the medical droid at the far side of the room. She never has any direct contact with Padme as Luke did, but she is present and alert. Leia does not cry anywhere in the movie. In ROTJ, when Leia is asked about her mother, her memories include "Images, really. Feelings." These could be consistent with either her seeing the past through the Force, or with the pattern of first memories originating in early childhood. Either explanation makes sense within the context of both films.

My conclusion, based upon what happened in the scenes, is that Luke repressed the memory. Why did he retain--essentially remember--his mother's message, but not Padme herself? Why did Leia retain the memory of their mother; beautiful, kind, but sad; but Luke didn't when he spent more time with her, had more contact, and had the training to search his feelings through the Force the way that Leia would have done intuitively if it were only that she was drawing the memory through the Force? Something would have had to have blocked him, and I think it's reasonable to believe that Baby Luke's psyche blocked the memory when Padme's death hurt him (the hurt evidenced by his crying).

 

It's been said in some sights that the OS will be re writen and new parts will be revealed for the film and the tv seiers revealing that Leia was adopted twice, but thought that bail's first wife was her real.

If leia knew padme, Vader would have seen it through her since a jedi and a sith can see through any non jedi sith person.

It doesnt make sence why leia would remember padme, and luke never nowing padme since he is the oldest and the powerful one choosen to become a jedi.