*OFFICIAL THREAD* Padmé's death and Leia's memories

"You *are* aware that you are proving my point, right?"

"How so? When asked what she recalls of her real mother by Luke, Leia tells Luke what little she knows. What little she knows is through her connection to the Force, whether she realises it or not."

And I agree with this 200%. I've never said otherwise. Ewok keeps bringing up the "Force visions aren't memories" mantra, and I keep saying it doesn't matter what the difference is (even though I agree that there is a difference), because as far as Leia is concerned, her Force visions seem like memories to her.

The exchange in question exemplifies this point:

LEIA: "You have a power I don't have, and could never understand."

LUKE: "You're wrong, Leia."

We know she's Force sensitive, and we know she's used the Force at least twice in the films prior to this, so she's *not* going to say "I have images and feelings of my mother, but I don't think these are memories" because there's nothing else for her to call them. It's not until after this revelation that she understands her sensing of Luke still alive after the DS blows up is through the Force. She finally understands and believes in this ability she has, and her connection to her brother.

"Leia is not using the Force, the Force is using her.
Only through training do Force-sensitive individuals learn control."

Uhm, say what? Are you telling me, then, that it wasn't really Anakin who was pod-racing, but the Force instead?

Was the first Force user simply a puppet for the Force? If so, how did any Force-user ever become a Jedi?

Let's not forget what Obi-wan said:

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi-wan: PARTIALLY, but it also obeys your commands.

Not totally....partially. The Force is not "using" her in this scene.

"She is definitely thinking of Padmé."

Again, you and I are in complete agreement. I've never stated otherwise. I was simply explaining why people might mistake Ewok's reasoning as proof that Leia isn't using the Force to "see" her real mother.

" But, IMHO, when she says that, she does not mean "back on Hoth, I had a feeling you were my brother".
Rather "Now you tell me this, in this moment, it somehow all falls into place."
There is a difference."

This makes the most sense to me as well (I hope it's the case....***shudder*** )

 

I did explain upthread (in fact, in the post where you pulled my quote from) what it had to do with the context of the film, complete with scene descriptions and quotes as evidence. I don't really care that you don't agree, you don't have to, but there is as much evidence that supports it as supports that Leia is remembering Padme and not Breha Organa. (Which for the record, I also believe.)

 

And what are your memories like? To break it down for those who don't get it, most memories are images and feelings although some can be triggered by olifactory senses.

 

Nothing about my posts even implies Leia is referring to anyone other than Padme.

Again, the point of my comments is to show why it's not necessary for ROTS to show Leia and Padme together for a significant moment(s) beyond the birth for Leia to have the impressions she does about her real mother as expressed in ROTJ. What she finally admits to Luke is that her so-called memories are simple images and feelings - nothing concrete...

And certainly nothing the audience should be forced to connect literally. We're supposed to understand whatever impressions she has are brought on by her Force sensitivity.

 

"but there is as much evidence that supports it as supports that Leia is remembering Padme and not Breha Organa."

Lucas states that he wanted one of the twins to remember the mother. That's it. Nothing else. No trauma inflicted. It was simply a choice made by Lucas.

Your theory goes above and beyond the films, is not supported by the films, and is completely unnecessary. One twin remembers her, and the other does not. Nothing else needs to be said about it.

"To break it down for those who don't get it, most memories are images and feelings"

To break it down for those who don't get it, what she "sees" aren't memories.

"although some can be triggered by olifactory senses."

Again, completely outside the scope of the films. Luke's question triggered her thoughts, not the smell of her mother's perfume.

 

Okay, I just wasn't sure exactly where you were coming from.

No, not at all.
Anakin thinks he is just good at pod racing.
He does not know it's the Force that enables him to be so good.
It is only under QGJ's guidance that he begins to start using that talent knowingly.
What I am driving at, IMHO, is that Leia's "memories" of her mother are a totally different aspect of the Force.
She is not "using" the Force on Endor, the Padmé connection was an event which "happened" to her through the Force when she was a newlyborn.
She remembers these vague images not through using the Force, but they were initially created because of her Force-connection.

I wasn't saying it was.
I see it more as a "Force event", that she remembers - or, at least has imprinted on her brain.

 

That makes more sense.

 

ChildOfWinds posted:
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Get_in_Gear:
"Somehow" she has always known that Luke is her brother too,

That comment always bothered me. If she really "somehow" always knew that Luke was her brother, it gives an even greater "yuck!" factor to the couple of times she kissed him. I just always saw that line as very lame. I wanted to see a far greater reaction from her to Luke's news that she was his sister... and Darth Vader's daughter.
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But, IMHO, when she says that, she does not mean "back on Hoth, I had a feeling you were my brother".
Rather "Now you tell me this, in this moment, it somehow all falls into place."

I think the dialogue should have been different if she meant that. It should have been something like, "Oh!!! Now I understand why I've always felt such a closeness to you, why I feel as though I've known you my whole life." Or something like that! As I said, I wanted a more emotional response to the news anyway.

That would have been preferable to "Somehow I've always known," when Luke tells her he's her brother.

I see it more as a "Force event", that she remembers - or, at least has imprinted on her brain.

I like that theory better than the idea that Little Leia was actively USING the Force to remember her mother at the age of 2 minutes. It also actually works very well with Alynn's theory of Luke being traumatized as he witnessed his mother's death and therefore, perhaps the Force didn't imprint a memory on his newborn brain. Or, he suppressed the Force-imprinted memory because it involved the trauma of his mother's death.

 

one thing leia says when he ask her if she remembed her real mother, she says her real mother died when she was very young, not when she was born, which does point out that she would have 2 mothers who raise her after padme's death, and leia thinks that her first step mother (which she thinks is her real mother) is her real mother, who will die around when leia's younge like 2 years old.

 

Obviously, I disagree, but that's alright. Different strokes and all that. You were satisfied with the scene. That's fine. Others, myself included, were not. Thats also fine. If the theory were really unnecessary, then we wouldn't have this thread to begin with. The twins' birth/Padme's Death scene raised some questions worth discussing. If nothing more needed to be said about it (and by extrapolation the movies as a whole, because I'm sure if we really wanted to we could find out everything that Lucas has to say about the movies and not bother examining them ourselves) then none of us would have been in this forum to begin with.

I am curious, though, about what you think. We know that Luke doesn't remember Padme at all, and Leia does. Given that: Luke had more training than Leia had (which is none). Yoda taught him how to search his feelings and use the Force to see "the future, the past, and old friends long gone". He had more time with Padme, as he was born first and he was the one whom she touched and talked to. At the exact moment of Padme's death, in the scene in ROTS, baby Luke started crying and baby Leia did not. In your opinion, why do you think that Luke cannot remember her? How do you account for his repeating her words verbatim throughout the latter half of ROTJ, but never realizing that he was repeating Padme's words akin to the way that Leia realizes that she has "somehow always known" that he was her brother (again, with no training)? By all accounts, Luke should have been able to figure it out if he really wanted to know about his mother, but he never did. Why not? What did it mean that baby Luke cried at the exact moment that Padme died.

I suppose one could chalk it up to a hole in the plot, and by just saying he doesn't remember because not everbody remembers everything, and that babies cry and there's no meaning in it, but personally I think that to stop at that would be boring, especially since it doesn't detract anything from the movie to look below the surface. I always thought it only added to the richness of the narrative.

 

MeBeJedi posted:
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Your theory goes above and beyond the films, is not supported by the films, and is completely unnecessary. One twin remembers her, and the other does not. Nothing else needs to be said about it.
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Actually, the theory that Leia remembers her mother through the Force isn't specifically mentioned or shown in the films either. One has to figure out for oneself how to make it work that a 2 minute year old child remembers that her mother is "beautiful, kind, but sad".

As others have pointed out, this becomes especially problematic when the twin who is older, was touched by Mom, and is a *trained* Jedi has no memory of his mother, while his sister, who has no Force training at all and was never touched by her mother, does. Not only was Luke taught that he could see things and people from the future and past as well, (as Alynn said), but we're talking about an extremely Force-sensitive person here, one who George Lucas now says has the same potential that his extremely Force-gifted father had, but lost, after the duel with Obi-wan. So, some of us find it hard to accept that Leia can have memories of her mother through the Force, but Luke can't. It's not reasonable.

Therefore, I'm very satisfied with Alynn's explanation. It works perfectly. There is nothing in the film that contradicts it, and it makes at least as much sense as why baby Leia remembers her mother through the Force.



Alynn:
You were satisfied with the scene. That's fine. Others, myself included, were not.

I wasn't satisfied with it either, Alynn.

If the theory were really unnecessary, then we wouldn't have this thread to begin with. The twins' birth/Padme's Death scene raised some questions worth discussing.

Exactly! And since this topic keeps coming up in more than one thread, it's pretty obvious that quite a few people had a problem meshing that scene with the scene between Luke and Leia in RotJ.

At the exact moment of Padme's death, in the scene in ROTS, baby Luke started crying and baby Leia did not.

I like your theory that he was traumatized by witnessing her death and therefore, suppressed the memory.

it doesn't detract anything from the movie to look below the surface. I always thought it only added to the richness of the narrative.

I agree. This theory works for me. Before I read this idea, I was VERY unhappy with the birth scene and how it didn't seem to be consistent with RotJ. Now, I'm satisfied: the Force imprinted a memory of Padme in Baby Leia, but Luke doesn't have any memories of his mother, because he was too traumatized for the Force to imprint them in his mind, or he subconsciously suppressed those memories because they they brought back the terrible pain of witnessing his mother's death.

 

I always thought when Leia said "beautiful, kind but sad", it was because as she was raised by the Organa's she was told about her real mother, being B, K but S. But mainly Leia depended on her "feelings and images".

Naturally though they did not tell about her father

 

Naturally though they did not tell about her father

Nonsense, he was on a spice freighter, what's there not to tell?

 

If you know anything about Star Wars you would know anything is possible with the force.

 

one thing leia says when he ask her if she remembed her real mother, she says her real mother died when she was very young, not when she was born, which does point out that she would have 2 mothers who raise her after padme's death, and leia thinks that her first step mother (which she thinks is her real mother) is her real mother, who will die around when leia's younge like 2 years old.

Two minutes old is very young. It's a generalization. It's like talking to a brick wall with you. Lucas said she is remembering Pamde, not Breha.

Since when did the jedi have the ability to see the past

Yoda: "Through the Force, things you will see. Different places. The future, the past, old friends long gone."

I suggest rewatching TESB. It's a good film.

 

ChildOfWinds posted:

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I agree. This theory works for me. Before I read this idea, I was VERY unhappy with the birth scene and how it didn't seem to be consistent with RotJ. Now, I'm satisfied: the Force imprinted a memory of Padme in Baby Leia, but Luke doesn't have any memories of his mother, because he was too traumatized for the Force to imprint them in his mind, or he subconsciously suppressed those memories because they they brought back the terrible pain of witnessing his mother's death.[hr][/blockquote]

Here's the small problem - and it's one you are causing yourself and can easily fix. You are trying to match up Leia's impressions about Padme with an actual event that took place on Polis Massa. What you're doing is taking what Leia thinks are "memories" and looking back into the PT for evidence of what "memories" Leia could have had about Padme. The only thing you have is the birth scene, but only because you've stuck yourself in a linear, temporal timeline with that mode of thinking.

You don't need to assign the exact moment of her birth as the trigger for these impressions at all. The Force does not need to imprint a memory at the moment of birth either. Leia can gain impressions of her mother that do not come from direct contact or personal experiences.

Yoda explains that [i]"through the Force, things you will see - other places - the future, the past, old friends long gone."[/i]

Leia could have images and feelings of Padme come to her through the Force and these images could be of Padme before Leia and Luke were even born. They are not subject to personal memory - they are visions of other times and places, possibly even echoes of Padme through the Force.

It stands to reason that just like Luke's focus was his father, Leia's was her mother - and her focus led to deep insight about Padme and manifested itself as images of sadness, kindness and beauty.

 

Rev...I was going to just let other posters with common sense handle this one, but the more I read your ridiculous ramblings it became clear to me that someone has to help you!

You want to believe what you are telling us, because you are probably upset that the birth scene with Padme was not more clear as to why Leia remembers her and Luke does not.

The FACTS are: The conversation in ROTJ was, without any doubt in a sain person's mind, about Leia's RRREEEEAAAAALLLLLL Mother! If you are unaware of the problem, I shall enlighten you.

ROTJ was made BEFORE the ROTS!!!!!!!!!!! Lucas had to tie up loose ends and fill in gaps that were already established in OT. It wasn't a perfect fit in this case, but it does work. Luke and Leia both have the Force. Each will use it's natural abilities differently. I don't need to go any further here, because people have already explained these points to you, but you just don't get it, or you are just trying to be an antagonist and instigate the most pathetic argument ever on this subject, because your stance on this makes absolutely no sense to even be included in the movies were it true....

Now before I collapse from hopelessness of trying to make u see the light, I must leave it to others to help you!!!

Good Luck People!

 

"Lucas states that he wanted one of the twins to remember the mother. That's it. Nothing else. No trauma inflicted. It was simply a choice made by Lucas."

To break it down for those who don't get it, what she "sees" aren't memories.

Do you not see the conflict in your own words? Lucas says Leia remembers her mother. Yet you are saying she doesn't have memories to remember. Hmmm... Now I am confused. I've stated the definition for remember before, so I won't do it again but I will tell you that remembering is rooted in having memories. Memories, that you have implied, Lucas stating that Leia has. By transitive property, you said Leia has memories of her mother and in the next breath, they aren't memories.

I agree with you that this is Lucas' current take on Leia's connection with Padme. I don't agree that it was the choice he made during filming of ROTJ. That's where the conflict occurs. Lucas does admit that his vision of the films is constantly changing and evolving. What he thought in 1983 when he filmed ROTJ is a different connection than what he has designed now. It is clear that in 1983 he intended to have Leia to be raised by Padme. I think he made the correct choice to change the relationship. He would introduce far more plot holes by continuing with that path of the story. That would mean Vader would be wandering the galaxy with his X-wife still alive. It wouldn't add finality to his transformation and would pose questions about Vader's actions. Why wouldn't he go get the woman and the offspring she bore?

I fully understand the theory, I just don't buy it. There are two ways to fix the problem as I see it. 1. EP 3 should have made the connection between Padme and Leia more explicit and obvious. The storytelling is lacking because we are only left to guess at their tenuous connection. Why are we guessing? It should be spelled out. 2. Alter the dialogue in EP 6 to reveal the force connection. Leia's force "vision" reaction is inconsistent with all other reactions we see in the films. Many have said "she doesn't know the difference because she isn't trained". Both Anakin and Luke (BTW both were not yet fully trained) had force visions and were haunted by them. Their visions startled them and caused them distress. This is why Yoda explains force visions to them both. Leia's reaction is not one that reveals that the force is moving through her, providing visions, as she speaks to Luke on the bridge of the Ewok village. Change the dialogue a little and that standard sense of confusion can be relayed. This would cement the idea that she is not remembering but having a waking dream of her mother as she speaks to Luke.

 

Luke does remember Padme, only he doesn't realize it. Leia remembers "images and feelings." Luke remembers her last words. "Obiwan there is good in him still, I know" In ROTJ, Luke says this to Leia and Obiwan. He has a connection to her that he doesn't even realize. Leia remembers her sadness and beauty, Luke remembers her final words.

 

chrischris716 posted:
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Since when did the jedi have the ability to see the past




I've already posted this a while back, but here it is again for your benifit.

Yoda: "Through the force, things you will see. The future, the past, old friends long gone"

 

EwokThatCried:
Leia could have images and feelings of Padme come to her through the Force and these images could be of Padme before Leia and Luke were even born. They are not subject to personal memory - they are visions of other times and places, possibly even echoes of Padme through the Force.

Okay, but the "traumatized theory still works here. Luke is subconsciously repressing Force-generated memories of his mother because they trigger the memory of witnessing her death.

It stands to reason that just like Luke's focus was his father, Leia's was her mother - and her focus led to deep insight about Padme and manifested itself as images of sadness, kindness and beauty.

But Luke never had Force visions of his father before meeting him, unless you want to include that test that he failed on Dagobah, but I think that was entirely different.

And, according to the novel of RotS, Padme actually had a "connection" to Luke, as she told Anakin that she had a mother's intuition that her baby would be a boy. I think a lot of Luke's personality is actually more like Padme's than Anakin's, and I think Leia's is more like her father's than her mother's.

Jedi4477:
Luke does remember Padme, only he doesn't realize it. Leia remembers "images and feelings." Luke remembers her last words. "Obiwan there is good in him still, I know" In ROTJ, Luke says this to Leia and Obiwan. He has a connection to her that he doesn't even realize. Leia remembers her sadness and beauty, Luke remembers her final words.

I like this theory too. The only thing that weakens it a bit is that Luke says that he "feels the good in Vader" rather than that he just has this vague notion that there is good in him. Still, this theory can be made to work.

 

everyone's forgeting that the dark side of the force cotrols the force, and leia would say words which any child would feel or think of there mother as to be, cause I think of my mother to kind, beatiful but sad as well, dont you of your real mother?

Leia will be adopted twice, and it would be stupid to reveal about padme to leia, or the sith would see it through her.

 

It doesn't help that the scene in question is the probably one of the worst in the series!

 

I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain. The Dark Side doesn't control the Force. Palpatine would like to think it does, but he was wrong. Leia remembers her real mother. This is what Luke stressed. Her REAL mother. And why would I think of my mother as very beautiful; kind, but sad, if she's not these things? She's not exceptionally attractive, she's quite kind, and she's pretty content. Leia will not be adopted twice. Nor will Padme` be brought back to life, like you're suggesting in other threads. The Sith can't see it through her because she has great Force potential and she can hide her feelings well. She's a politician. This is key. A Force-sensitive politician. No one's seeing into her mind.

 

Don't fall for his bait!