*OFFICIAL THREAD* Padmé's Fate [v4.0]

So where would Luke's hologram be?

As I had already said in my earlier post, Luke didn't get any - because he was going to be raised a Jedi (eventually) - no ties for him to real parents whatsoever.

I think the career decision for both twins was made right at the birth by Obi-Wan, Padme, and perhaps Yoda. Luke would follow in Dad's footsteps (except not the end bit) and Leia in her Mom's. Leia was left with some IMAGES of her mother, holograms, that obviously were all destroyed when Alderaan blew up. Thus, ensuring that Luke would NEVER get to even see a pic of her, post RotJ.

IMO, Leia's words images are a big clue. She IS remembering her mother's images, holograms, not her mother as a person.

 

Does Padme die? She might. I would even say that the circumstantial evidence shows she does?though there is also evidence that she does not.

The question I?d like to address, though, is: Does Amidala HAVE to die to bring closure to her character, as many posters maintain? My argument: No, not at all.

JediBendu, though you make a valid point, you haven?t explored all the possibilities. You state that Padme must die because of the Laws of Drama. The ?Laws of Drama say that major characters need closure.?

Well, being a writer, and understanding the nature of closure, I can appreciate the thought. But closure isn?t a ?law? of drama. It?s just a common device. And there have been successful stories that play with the idea of closure. ?The X-Files? and ?A Series of Unfortunate Events? are two that jump to mind. Major themes and characters disappear or get away and questions are left unanswered.

One could argue that there are really just two rules of drama: The first is that all drama develops from character. This means that the person who the film is clearly about will always shape the direction of the story. Plot does not happen to a character. Plot happens as a result of choices that the character makes.

The second is that the most important journey is the hero's journey of self. This means that no matter what happens to a character, if they do not appear to have been changed by their experiences, the story will not feel complete.

One argument you make is that ?When a tragic mother figure is left grieving in a classic tragedy, she is returned to somewhere later in the story so we can see what happened to her. Or in Shakespeare's Winter's Tale, where we think the mother has vanished from the story, but she is revisted later and given dramatic closure.?

This also occurs in the Star Wars mythology. When Luke speaks with Leia about her mother, we?re given closure. We realize she has passed on that she died when Leia was very young ? force theories or not. Simply put, this is the closure of which you speak.

If, however, you need some sort of closure for her character prior to those events in ROTJ, that can be delivered as well in a number of ways. If the focus must be on her eventual death, there are myriad ways of foretelling this. A few:
1. Amidala delivers the twins and a medical droid tells those around her that, for whatever reason (disease, etc.) that she is sick and dying. She may only have months to live. She?s transported to Alderaan to spend the rest of her life with her daughter.

2. She runs away with Bail, a sad, pale creature. As she leaves, she tells Obi-Wan, who has Luke, that she does not know how she will go on without Anakin and Luke. That she fears her time is short.

3. The same as above, but Yoda ?sees? the future and tells Obi-Wan that Padme?s time is very short, and that hopefully her daughter will give her happiness for that time.

I agree that there must be some seed of her fate planted in the movie-goer?s mind. But I don?t believe actually seeing Padme die is of utmost importance. And certainly not imperative.

And, to tackle the Magic Force Baby Theory, which posits that it is the bond between mother and daughter and father and son that matters most, not the extent of training in the Force one is given. You state that this theory answers several questions:

1. Why Luke feels he know Dagobah

If Luke can sense his birthplace, why is it that he can?t sense his mother? And, if the bond between father and son is so strong, why doesn?t Luke automatically realize that Vader is his father when he senses him? Why doesn?t Luke have memories of his father?

2. Why Leia remembers her Mum and Luke does not.

Again, this then suggests that Luke should have some strong connection to his father ? and not just in the story sense that Luke must confront Vader.

3. Why Vader senses the force in Luke and not in Leia.

I disagree with this only because Vader also senses Obi-Wan on the Death Star, and they are unrelated. And Vader doesn?t sense Luke on the Death Star.

 

Hmm maybe this reply would be better in the why anakin turns thread, but it's relevant here. Hell, it may have been thought of already.

If Anakin turns to the dark side totally because he believes Padme is dead, it has to be true. He could feel her presence through the force. This is backed by the fact that Obi-Wan felt Alderaan being destroyed through a great disturbance in the force. So there is precident in the canon.

So, how could he be tricked into thinking she is dead when he is so powerful in the force?? He should be able to sense her because they have such a tight bond. I know some people will say Palpy will cloud his vision and trick him or that Ani's hate was already so strong he couldn't feel her, etc. But IMO, he would feel her as Vader if she was still alive.

 

[Bows low to HamSalad3000]

We are not worthy...

... thanks for the professional angle. (Should keep the pro-Padme's-death-in-E3 bunch quiet for a while...)

I'm still of the belief that she faked her death, left her children in capable hands, and took off to lead the new rebellion. She would have intended to return, but obviously didn't. She could have left instructions with Bail to care for Leia until her return.

But she never came back...

As HamSalad3000 has said, no 'death of Padme' is required in E3 to give her closure.

Hmmm... I feel a fan-fic coming on...

 

HamSalad, absolutely marvellous post.

Still think she dies though in this film.

 

I must agree. she will die, just because it would really add a lot of emotion in the plot. besides, it says that her, ob1, and yoda will be in a very grim scene. what else could it be than her death...

 

So Earth Humans can do some amazing things at a young age. Not so much a stretch for a 14-year-old to rule. Don?t you remember King Tut, the Boy King?)

But King Tut-Ankh-Amun inherited the throne from his brother. He just followed a blood line .

Padmé Amidala got a political career , say like Bill Clinton and George W Bush.
She afiliated to political party,entered a popular sulfrage, won an election and served a gubernatorial post .
She started it all at 8 ? according to the OS .
And that's something you won't see anytime soon here on Earth.

The whole point HamSalad3000 is that people come around saying : gosh i can't remeber a thing before i was 7 years old so Padmé must have lived all that time together with Leia, otherwise she wouldn't remember anything at all

That's silly .

How it was said before , to some people is okay with hyperspace and lightsaber but can't take that a baby retains memories of his mother. Where's the logic ?

Also i'll repost for the 100th time this : much of the discussion of these threads come really to distortion of the scene .

Let's remember the famous scene between Luke and Leia ? the so called basis to the support of the idea that Padmé lives beyond Ep3 .

But first , from the OT , what do we know about Alderaan ?
We learn it got blowed away by the Death Star in ANH .
See this is important.
The Luke/leia conversation about their mother take place in ROTJ ? 3/4 years after the events of Ep4.
So here's the kick : if Ep3 ends with Padmé go into hidding with Leia in Alderaan and that's the last we see of her , the only logical conclusion that we can have watching the movies in the order ( Ep1 to 6 ,)as GL himself said we should, is that dies when the planet is destroyed by DS .

But let's go back to Luke's question to Leia .
He said : " ? i don't have any memories of/never knew my mother. Do you remember your mother, your real mother ? "

This clearly shows that Luke knew that Padmé have died before Alderaan got blown away in ANH ? or else how ridiculous would be of him asking Leia if she remembered someone who just died 3 years ago ?
How the heck would Leia in 3 years have forgot his " real " mother ?

If Luke assumed that the woman that raised Leia as her mother in Alderaan was indeed her truly mother , why then reinforce the term " real mother " ?
Plus if he tought at all that this woman was also his mother why should he think she haven't died in the Alderaan explosion ?

As you see the way Luke made the question it IMPLIES IN A WAY UNDENIABLE, UNCONSTESTED, UNCONTROVERSED that LUKE KNEW PADMÉ WAS KILLED LONG BEFORE THE EVENTS OF THE OT ..
The way Luke asked that question shows that he understood the woman who raised Leia wasn't her mother ( her real mother ).
He knew Padmé had another fate. He knew she no longer was in Alderaan by the time of ANH .

Now try to think it : With the question Luke also clearly ASSUMED that Leia was separated from Padmé for a long while ? or else how i said before why would he doubt that she had any memories of her "real" mother.
The question in a implicit way demonstrates that Padmé fate took place much time before the events shown in the OT, LONG TIME ENOUGH TO COULD MAKE LUKE DOUBT IF LEIA EVER HAD ANY SORT OF MEMORIE OF PADMÉ ?

As i said in the begining what sense make ask if Leia still remembered somene who passed away in short time ( only 3 years ) ?
Unless you think that GL is reallly a bad writer there would be no sense to make that question in such a way if Luke were sure the both Leia and Padmé lived enough time to know each other really well.
If that was the case the question would be : how our mother, your real mother, was like ?
By all means if luke himself have doubts that Leia could remember their mother it can only be because he knew the both were also had their ties severed .
And frankly Leia answer basicly confirmed that because she said she only had images ( beautiful )and feelings( sadness ).
Not more .
I

 

my bad if somethin like this was posted before....BUT......

someone mentoned before that since padmés charecter doesnt have closure in the original trilogy, she must die in episode III.

i fully agree with this, that is, i would if this were the case.

how bout this....

Padmé gives birth to luke and leia on alderran, luke is imediatly taken away to be monitored by obi-man on tatooine.
now,
padmé has become very ill from giving birth, or from another cause, but wishes to stay with leia on alderran untill SHE DIES.
now,
this is where we leave those charecters and continue with the vader/empire storyline.
since she was really sick, it is kind of implied that she dies sometime after episode III. however, this still leaves the closure issue.
correct me if im wrong, but given the aformentioned situation, exellent closure for padmé would be provided by this....

Luke: do you remember your mother? your real mother?

Leia: just a little bit. SHE DIED WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG.

bada bing bada boom.

this explains why luke doesnt remember her, why leia does, and also fits in nicely with GL's statment that padmé wont die in episode III

Thats my theory. i dare you to find a flaw in it.

again, my bad if this was mentioned.

 

Padme should die in the film and they can have a funeral for her in the last 10 minutes. It would make Episode 3 all the more tragic, and we'd know for sure what really happens to her.

 

Yes, I agree that Padme must die in Episode III. However, it is a stretch to think millions of fans will buy into the whole idea that Leia sensed Padme's sadness via the Force. That's a cop-out if you ask me but it might be the only plausible explanation, until May 2005.

 

Wa-hey!

I said I felt a fan-fic coming on! For those who would like to see Padme survive E3 click here.

Apologies to the pro-writers such as HamSalad3000... I haven't written a work of fiction since my school days - and they were 14 years ago!

It's not 'full' closure... kind of 'assumptive' closure... anyway, click and see!

 

"However, it is a stretch to think millions of fans will buy into the whole idea that Leia sensed Padme's sadness via the Force. That's a cop-out if you ask me..."

My point exactly Dolphin...

 

IN my eyes she will NOT die ....
Leia: Just a little bit she died when i was very young .....

Its already been confirmed that the twins will be less than a month old at the end of the movie HOW CAN SHE HAVE A MEMORY FROM THAT SHORT A PERIOD OF TIME ?????

 

OK, first time poster, long time reader.

Padme will die. She will die in the film.

In relation to the whole idea that it is one her doubles etc; I think that in EP 3 the tricks that worked in the earlier films won't work anymore. Sidious is on to her games.

In relation to those who say that Leia couldn't remember anything from a month old, it is just one of those conceptual leaps you are going to have to make. Seriously, the whole SW Universe is not going to hinge on that fact.

Just to add my own little bit of conjecture, I think Padme will die in an accident or self sarcifice. Specifically I think she will fall from a great height a la Luke in ESB. I'm not sure if she will let go like he does or slip.

I think it would be a nice touch, Anakin tries to pull the same stuff on her that he pulls with Luke, join us etc; and like Luke, she will reject him and what he has become.

It strikes a nice compromise between Anakin blaming himself and blaming others. For instance he could imagine that she chooses to jump rather than join him because she has been turned against him by the Jedi, but clearly he would have to take some blame as well.

The sort of Anger that leads to the darkside is always that mix of self hatred that we channel outwards at others.

It also invalidates Anakin's theory that power can stop people from dying. in fact it is the reverse (the more you tighten your grip, the more things slip through your fingers ... to paraphrase)... "once you start down the dark path, forever will it domiante your destiny" kinda stuff

It also helps explain why Vader is 'different' at the end of ESB. It's one thing be rejected by Luke, but it is an entirely different thing if it reminds him of his wife's death. Losing one person like that, you could understand, but two ....?

Finally it creates a nice resonance between the prequel and classic trilogy.

The only drawback is that suicide tends to be frowned upon in Hollywood films. They might be able to get around that by making it clear that if she doesn't give up her life, the lives of the twins will be in danger.

Anyway it is just a theory, but I think it makes pretty good sense ...

 

how can she die? Remember Leia telling Luke in ROTJ: "....I remember my mother...she was beautiful and kind...."

Was this her adopted mother? or Padame?

 

Ella-Vader, you'll find some wierd and wonderful theories that will 'try' to explain that away.

I don't believe them myself - I'm of the belief that Padme survives E3 and dies before ANH.

Click on the link in my signature if you want to see a possible ending to E3 without her dying in it.

 

Ham Sald, I'm gonna do some quoting, I'll try not to mangle the intent of your post by doing so, and I'll try not to nit pick...

JediBendu, though you make a valid point, you haven?t explored all the possibilities. You state that Padme must die because of the Laws of Drama. The ?Laws of Drama say that major characters need closure.?

You say that some stories don't require "on-screen" closure, and that Leia's reference to Padme can act as the closure for many stories. But this isn't just any old story, it's space-opera, it's a hero journey. There are style issues here. Deaths off screen don't work in Space Opera, it's the whole "they ain't dead until you've seen the body" problem. In space opera if you don't see the hero or villain's body, then you are pretty sure that they are going to turn up again in the grand finale. So if we do not have a definitive death for Padme, we will be left with a nagging sensation that she should be there for the next 2.5 movies, until she gets the one line reference.

Also, Padme's character pretty much demands that she goes out properly (or as SLJ would say, "not like a punk"). We have been shown a woman of strength, drive and action since the first, for her to die ignomiously off screen would be a disservice to the character GL has built.

If, however, you need some sort of closure for her character prior to those events in ROTJ, that can be delivered as well in a number of ways. If the focus must be on her eventual death, there are myriad ways of foretelling this. A few:
1. Amidala delivers the twins and a medical droid tells those around her that, for whatever reason (disease, etc.) that she is sick and dying.

Hmm, disease never a major player in space opera, but a remote possibility.

2. She runs away with Bail, a sad, pale creature. As she leaves, she tells Obi-Wan, who has Luke, that she does not know how she will go on without Anakin and Luke.

This couldn't work without completely ignorisng Padme's character. She (like Leia) is the strong one, the one who will do her duty no matter what.

3. The same as above, but Yoda ?sees? the future and tells Obi-Wan that Padme?s time is very short, and that hopefully her daughter will give her happiness for that time.
Weak. Ham Salad, would you write that into a story?

I agree that there must be some seed of her fate planted in the movie-goer?s mind. But I don?t believe actually seeing Padme die is of utmost importance. And certainly not imperative.

Not to the overall story, but for Padme's character (which should be shown some respect for her role in the trilogy) it is neccessary.

And, to tackle the Magic Force Baby Theory, (snip)
You state that this theory answers several questions:

GASP! you dare to challenge the Leia Magic Force baby Theory?

1. Why Luke feels he know Dagobah

If Luke can sense his birthplace, why is it that he can?t sense his mother? And, if the bond between father and son is so strong, why doesn?t Luke automatically realize that Vader is his father when he senses him? Why doesn?t Luke have memories of his father?

Easy. Because Luke never met his father as a baby. Luke only has a nagging feeling about Dagobah. Something even less than Leia's "images...feelings".

2. Why Leia remembers her Mum and Luke does not.

Again, this then suggests that Luke should have some strong connection to his father ? and not just in the story sense that Luke must confront Vader.

He does have a strong connection to his father, it's just that he never met him to have any memories of him.

3. Why Vader senses the force in Luke and not in Leia.

I disagree with this only because Vader also senses Obi-Wan on the Death Star, and they are unrelated. And Vader doesn?t sense Luke on the Death Star. He doesn?t sense any presence of the Force in Luke until the Yavin battle, and even then he doesn?t ?know? that it?s his son. He just knows that ?The Force is strong with this one.?

Which leads us to how Vader finds out abou

 

This cannot be possible. Leia has memory of her mother (ROTJ). She gives birth at the end of the movie, so I don't think that it is very realistic for a newborn to remember her mother at birth.

This is mind boggling

 

Will people please read the thread and not just the title before replying?!

Darth LeBaron, you point has been brought up about 15 times in this thread already. Whilst the issue of Leia's memory is a tricky one, it is not impossible to overcome in a Galaxy with the force in it.

This difficulty should be weighed against the poor storytelling that would be evident if Padme's fate was left unresolved for 2.5 movies and then finished off with a single line.

 

I hope she dies just to make a more powerful/moving kinda story and I wanna see what happens. And leia could "remember" through the force because if the force can conceive anakin skywalker it can damn sure help someone remember their mother. lol. my $.02

 

This cannot be possible. Leia has memory of her mother (ROTJ). She gives birth at the end of the movie, so I don't think that it is very realistic for a newborn to remember her mother at birth.

[sarcasm]Do you know what is truly realistic ?
Swords with blades made of light[/sarcasm]

PS : Luke said he was familiar with Dagobah in TESB, so how many years he must have spent there to have those feelings ?

 

Maybe it isn't extremely realistic that a newborn would remember their mother, but I can accept it. If Luke gets taken away immediately and Padmé is left alone for private moments with Leia, that's good enough for me.

 

I think ANY (well almost any) of these questions can be answered with 2 words. THE FORCE.

fanboy: how does leia remember her mother?
GL: uuhhhhh... the force! yeah thats it.

Fanboy: How does luke remember degobah?
GL: Im gonna go with the force on this one too.

fanboy: How does anakin not have a father?
GL: man, you people with these questions. Uh I dont know, the force?

fanboy: why does...
GL: ZIP IT! the force ok! Ive got a whole bag of "the force" over here with your name on it.

 

But what may seem like realy big plot points to fans is nothing more than a minor element to Lucas. The cave is not that big a deal. We've just had 20 years to over-analyze it.

 

This is just wishful thinking, but I was desperately hoping that Anakin's final fall to the dark side would be by killing Padme (the person he loves most) in a rage, after discovering that she had hidden Luke away from him. She obviously doesn't tell him she had twins, but you'd have thought that Anakin could have sensed that anyway.

Anyway, she tells him that Obi-Wan has hidden the child, he kills her, and then he goes after Obi-Wan. Fast forward to the big fight.