*OFFICIAL THREAD* RotS Discrepancies, Gaping Plot Holes and Continuity Problems

I completely agree. Padme had to die in the film but he was held to what was written in RotJ. There wasn't much way out. There were a few techniques that could have worked, albeit weak. If Leia opened her eyes, Padme touched her, kissed her, etc.... and Luke was delivered after she died, then fans would have probably had far less difficulty accepting Leia's line so many years later. Having the twins experience identical situations only perpetuates the problem and it remains unexplained.

 

Leia kissed Luke to get under Han's skin. Remember, they were just arguing the previous day about the fact that Han thinks Leia could use a good kiss. She says that she'd rather kiss a Wookiee than him. Han tells her that he can arrange that. Well, since she don't want to be spitting out hair for a couple of weeks, she opted to kiss Luke. Knowing full well that it would raise Han's ire, since he'd get a laugh out of kissing Chewie. If Lando had been there, she would've kissed him instead. The fact that Lando flirts with Leia proves the point that Han can get jealous, especially if one of his friends has an interest in Leia.

And she kissed him in ANH, for luck. A quick peck. She didn't know him then.

 

So you would kiss your sister to make her best friend jealous?

I think if you knew it was your sister, you would devise a different plan to make someone jealous. That is why 'I always knew' kinda bothered me, but was really brought to fruition after the ending of ROTS didn't solve any of my questions. Hey if that was Leias master plan, different strokes for different folks.

 

The ultimate edition should show Luke in RotJ, upon learning Leia is his twin sister, telling Obi-Wan to hang on for just one second while we see Luke run behind some Dagobah trees and a sound of gagging and projectile vomiting is heard.

 

>>>> I've read thousands of posts on the topic of how Leia remembers her mother while Luke doesn't. Some excellent posts. To be completely honest, there is nothing I've read that makes me accept it as anything but an inconsistency. How can one rememberand not the other if Padmé died in the presence of both within a minute of their birth? I'm not a Star Wars nitpicker and I love all six films. But this one element, in my opinion, was glossed over and will exist forever as a mistake or something with no straight answer.

Sape, if GiG's suggestion (about how he has memories from when he was a kid, that his sister does not, even though she was fully present at the time) doesn't work for you, then just don't think of it as a memory.

Think of it as Yoda describes in TESB.
It is a vision through the Force for Leia, of an 'old friend long gone'.

Luke doesn't share it.
Because the Force chose not to share it with him.

Instead he has his connection to his father.


-JR

 

Kind of like Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura when he found out Lt. Einhorn(Sean Young) was a man!

Can you imagine Luke with a plunger over his mouth like Ace was doing when he found out, that would be classic.

 

>>>Perhaps the risk is more in Vader finding out. If Leia or anyone else knows that Anakin Skywalker is her father, then there is a chance that Vader could gain this knowledge.<<<
True, although as long as she was told to keep it to herself there would be no problem - it's not as if Vader would even be looking for her! In fact, they can stand face to face and hold a conversation, and he still hasn't the faintest clue who she is.

>>>I'm not a Star Wars nitpicker and I love all six films. But this one element, in my opinion, was glossed over and will exist forever as a mistake or something with no straight answer.<<<
A view I totally empathise with. Picking little inconsistencies apart is easy and mischievous fun, but is solely a matter of concern for the hardcore fan, and such trivialities don't impact on the story anyway. Leia's ROTJ speech is an entirely different prospect; it goes against the usual common sense thought process of the vast majority of people who will be watching the movie for decades (centuries?) to come. Leia's recollections of Padme are akin to members of the audience being able to recall the midwife who delivered them - it just doesn't ring true.

For all it's fantastic settings, "Star Wars" is about ordinary human beings, not the mechanics of their fictional world. As knowledgable fans, we can dig back into past episodes' dialogue and construct rationales to explain the matter - previously unknown special Force memory powers, for example. I would not expect a more casual viewer to reach similar conclusions, though. If they ascribe Leia's super-powered memory to the Force, then it's pretty obvious to then also give such powers to Luke - even better ones probably, with him being a trained Jedi. But he has no memory of his mother, so logically they aren't likely to stick with that explanation too long. Where do they go from there? And by the time they do get to a satisfactory explanation, how much of the movie have they missed?

Fans may be able to swallow it, but that scene is now a problem as far as general audiences go. As mentioned before, GL has shown he will change scenes (the Emperor's message and Anakin's "ghost") to fix inconsistencies between the OT and the PT, and I do hope this scene gets a slight modification for ROTJ's subsequent releases.


On a seperate point; I'm not saying it's an inconsistancy, but I am having a little trouble pinning down the time frame of ROTS! Where does time pass to allow for Padme's pregnancy to get to full term? Even if the Nubian gestation period is a fast one, I would think there needs to be at least a couple of months. There seems to be a potential gap between Padme telling Anakin that she's pregnant and the following scene of Grievous arriving on Utapau (although Obi-Wan says "see you at the briefing", which we then see after Grievous is on Utapau, it could be a different briefing some time later). And yet, immediately on arriving on Utapau, Palpatine issues instructions to move the TF leaders to Mustafa but this doesn't happen until the day of Order 66. It gets a little complicated after that...

Is there an explanation of this, perhaps in the novelisation?

 

But many, many people on Earth DO have such memories.
Many, many people on Earth even have unexplainable PRE-natal memories.
Some people have won the jackpot on the lottery.
But I haven't, and I bet you haven't, and I bet the next person hasn't...
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Let's forget the Force for a moment.
Memories are reinforced.
In fact, that is what memories are - just a reinforced experiences.
Leia is pretty much reliving her mother's life in so many ways.
Luke is reliving his father's life.
Luke just has a different focus in his life - hell, he just has a different life to Leia, full stop.
Different things have been reinforced in his life.
Different things are important to him and he has experienced different things to Leia.
Even without the Force showing it's hand in all of this, it makes sense to me.

But the Force does play a part in Leia's memories, in my opinion.
That is what that whole scene on Endor is about to me - always has been.
Leia is important too - she has the gift of the Force too.
It is about Leia's role in all of this and her relationship with the Force, and it's will.

Saying Lucas didn't intend for Leia's mother to die in childbirth in 1983 doesn't work.
He had lines in the script which contradicted this, originally.
Then INTENTIONALLY TOOK THOSE LINES OUT.
Watch Star Wars to Jedi - the Making of a Saga, he explains quite clearly how he intentionally trimmed this down until it was left as a vague reference to Leia's mother.
All he wanted to establish in ROTJ, in the end, was that somebody remembered the character we now know as Padmé - nothing more, nothing less.
Not how, why or when - just that they did.
He says he wanted it to be that vague, and he said this when interviewed in 1985 on the subject.

You can't say it was there once - so he intended it, well, not without saying that Lando was a first generation clone with hundreds of copies of hiimself and his sister roaming the galaxy, Han is a green-skinned alien, and Owen is Ben's brother.
All those things were Lucas' intention at one point - but the most important thing about all those facts is that they were dropped and didn't make the final cut.

Leia says nothing in ROTJ which contradicts what we now know. She just doesn't.

Yoda: "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past."

Previously unknown?

Well - that's his perogative.
I think the TESB Emperor scene made sense before, and makes sense now.
The real reason Lucas chose to change that scene was because of the monkey woman, and because the opportunity presented itself - IE he had McDiarmid onset in full Palpatine make-up and he had was simultaneously working on a DVD release of the OT.
While he was at it he tweaked the dialogue too, just to add more depth to what issues are actually being dealt with in that scene.

I don't see any reason he would decide to change Luke and Leia's exchange on Endor.
But you never know...

No official time-frame has been given for the events of the fi

 

Why do people have a problem with Leia having a memory that Luke doesn't?

I mean, she also has a vagina that he doesn't. Is that a plot hole too?

 

lmao

Love Slave: a reason?

Because it just doesn't make sense. It is a discrepency. And to justify it, theories are invented based on almost anything.

As to prenatal memories - I have never EVER heard of anything like that. Of memories or even VIVID memories in utero or immediatly after birth. Is it possible? I suppose anything is possible (see Ashlee Simpson). But is it reasonable? Heck no.

Also, for every subsequent change that Lucas makes to the OT or the PT, if he changes dialogue or scenes or offers up some other angle - was his original vision wrong?

 

"Memory is the quintessence of human experience without which we cannot make progress, cannot learn from experience, and cannot develop a personal identity. Learning and memory are interlocked: learning depends on memory, and learning is evidence of memory.

Psychology traditionally placed the beginnings of memory at about age three because few people have conscious recall of events before that time. However, an accumulating volume of research demonstrates memory in the first years of life and in the prenatal period as well. Some children spontaneously recall birth events (even secrets) but expression of these memories is delayed until they can speak. Before they use words they can express their memories non-verbally by drawing pictures, acting out scenes using pantomime, pointing to body locations, and by providing authentic sound effects for equipment (like suction devices) used at the birth. These children warn us that early memory and learning are real." - Prenatal Memory and Learning By David B. Chamberlain

"In so far as it is crucial, emotionally-charged memories seem to lay the foundation for one's current health. In a practice which now spans 6 years with a foundation of 16 years research, I believe it's important to address memories. In particular, I believe that prenatal events as well as immediate post natal events have tremendous impact, not fading into oblivion as some may believe.

Many hypnotherapists and doctors (particularly those who belong to the American Academy of Medical Hypnoanalysts) believe that traumatic or critical events create emotional seeds which endure at a subconscious level throughout one's life. As life continues, these seeds grow when "watered" by similar events or events which trigger the same emotional response. When a seed of this kind is watered once too often, the result is frequently a weakeness in the area of the body where the individual stores stress.

Prenatal and post-natal traumas are very powerful because the individual frequently does not have conscious memory of them and cannot consciously resolve them in "talk therapy". In many cases, parents or family members may not know about the events or remember them, thereby not conversing with the individual about those events. And it is also possible that subsequent events aren't seen as being emphatic enough to create any kind of stress-induced basis for disease -- even though the event is triggering a prenatal or post-natal memory." - By Cristine Bronson, studies on prenatal and postnatal memories

 

>>>But many, many people on Earth DO have such memories.
Many, many people on Earth even have unexplainable PRE-natal memories.
Some people have won the jackpot on the lottery.
But I haven't, and I bet you haven't, and I bet the next person hasn't...
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.<<<

I think it was fairly clear I was talking about the perceptions of the general, usual, common, average person in the audience, not the one-in-a-million lottery-winning pre-birth-memory weirdos! By far the most common reaction to Leia's recollections will be "WTF? She was a minute-old baby!".

As for the Force memory powers being unknown, I meant in the audience's knowledge of Leia. Yoda spends a long time trying to teach Luke these skills, and we are shown that it takes hard work and instruction for one of Anakin's children to learn the ways of the Force. That would be the background awareness the audience bring with them to the ROTJ scene, certainly over-riding a fragment of a line that mentions visions of the past are possible. Additionally, in the very same scene where Leia describes Padme, Luke tells Leia that in time she will learn to use the Force - whether he's right or wrong, that is a fairly clear pointer for the audience to not imagine that Leia has been using Force powers previously.

Quite possibly Leia may have a natural tendency to this particular talent, or maybe she has constructed a false recollection, or whatever, but again, this is fans looking back, taking time, considering possibilities, and reaching conclusions after the event; as a one-off, first-viewing, accept-it-and-move-on moment, it's now become clumsy, jarring dialogue.

At birth, babies brains are only fully developed in the brain stem area, and can control motor skills such as heartbeat, kicking, holding, feeding, some visual tracking. The ability to rapidly judge nuances of facial expressions has to be learned, and can take a very long time - years, in fact! That may all sound too technical and involved, but it's what people instinctively know about babies. Tell people something contrary, such as being able to recall the people in attendance at your birth, and they just won't believe you.

 

Hang on - are you saying you have to have won the lottery yourself to know that the lottery can be, and is, won?
Are you saying that you have to be one of the many thousands of people who have experienced pre-natal and natal memories to be able to accept that they happen?

That was not what I was saying, and it is pretty moot to my point anyway.
I was just answering a question with scientific fact, it is pretty irrelavent to Leia who is strong with the Force.
But I thought you were making the point that there is no way anyone could possibly form a memory from within the short period of time Leia spent in her mother's company.
I was just saying, in response to that, that, actually, people can and do - it is well documented.

I don't see why - Yoda explains the possibility of what Leia is experiencing quite clearly in TESB.

I don't really follow.

Question: How does Qui-Gon Jinn confirm that Anakin is strong with the Force in TPM?
He asks a question of his mother.
Has Anakin been trained by anyone at this point?
Has the Force also bestowed visions upon this untrained boy at this point?

Well, if they've watched TPM, AOTC, ROTS, TPM, ANH and TESB they should get it really - it's all in there.

In what way?
How can anything over-ride the fact that we see Leia spend only a few minutes in her mother's company?
You can't get to ROTJ and pretend it happened any other way.
And nothing that Leia says in ROTJ contradicts what we saw in ROTS.

Yes, just as he learned to use the Force.
We never see Leia once use the Force throughout the entire trilogy.
What - you think we are saying that Leia consciously uses the Force to reinforce a memory?
It's a gift.
One that shapes her destiny.
Like visions of freing the slaves.
Like being the only human to compete in a pod race.

Like I said, I don't recall anyone saying she was using jack ****.

Heaven forbid a film should challenge us to think about anything in any way.
No, we should leave films behind in the cinema and get back to our stamp collections...

Well - I'd say hands up everyone here who has seen ROTJ just the once...

 

Absolutely GIG,

During the filming of ROTS they re-shot the scene between Darth Vader and the Emperor in Empire (i.e., the "monkey woman" scene) with Ian McDiarmid (rather than just the face replacement that was done for the SE).
The dialogue has also been altered so that it makes more sense with the continuity of the PT. The new footage will be cut into all future DVD releases.

DARTH VADER: I have felt it.
EMPEROR: We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
DARTH VADER: How is that possible?
EMPEROR: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
DARTH VADER: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

The Making of Revenge of the Sith p. 109

 

(rather than just the face replacement that was done for the SE).


What face replacement for the SE? The monkey woman was still the same until the DVD.

 

Yes, the "monkey woman" was the same until the SE DVD release.

There have been 3 official releases of the OT films:

There is the Original VHS release
The Enhanced VHS Version and
The Special Edition (DVD)

Ian McDiarmid's face was replaced for the 2004 Special Edition release.

[image=http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3306/50219971vp.jpg]

[image=http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8714/50220041na.jpg]

Now they have re-shot the Emperor's part of the scene completely (not just a face replacement) with subtle line edits as mentioned above.

 

I think Leia meant that she always knew that there was something about Luke that prevented her from pursuing him with any great interest. Same with Luke pursuing her after they've met in person. Outside of the eu published at that time, neither one pursued the other. All footage filmed during TESB was subsequently cut from the film and never talked about at all. It only appeared in the comic adaptation.

 

Hilarious.

 

Thanks for doing the research, GiG.


Open your minds just a little, use your imaginations just a little, and the possibilities are endless.


-JR

 

No, just a hole.....

 

"Moles pass in time"

 

Ok this is realy bothering me. I dont know if im wrong or not but the statue in the middle of the floor here:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/darthwhiny88/NDVD_001.jpg
facing forward with nothing behind it is now here:
http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlc20051127152853519le.png
And is now backed by a walkway.

Now do you think that this statue is: a.) popular and everywhere, b.)the clones moved it, or c.) a mistake?

Also the Council tower noew appears to have two rooms up top, how can this be with it being so thin?