*OFFICIAL THREAD* Sifo-Dyas Discussion

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Mr_Infinity, May 29, 2002.

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  1. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    Does he say tyranus's name to grievous? I thought that grievous asks about the loss of dooku and sidious tells him he will soon have a new apprentice.
    My WOTC star wars cards have the "more younger and powerful than lord tyranus" dialouge on them, but I don't think it's said that way in the movie.
  2. Donlon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2005
    I skiped most of the pages in this thread so sorry if this has been mentioned..

    I think Darth P(Sid's Master) might have been Sifo. I really dont have to much to prove it, and im sure its not, but it makes sense to me.
    He could of been teaching Palpy the sith ways but still appear to be a jedi to the council and hide his dark powers( like palpy).Then palps killed him thus making the mysterious death of Sifo...

    sorry if my theory dosnt make any sense, im not really to sure how to exaplin it...
  3. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1

    Ok, I don't know if this has been brought up yet, because there are 85 pages in this thread and I'm not reading them all :p

    My thought is that Sifo-Dyas was Palpatine's apprentice previous to Maul; this is supported by the timeline, small bits we are given, and Yoda's reaction to the name in AOTC. My assertion is that while Palpatine was secretly pretending to be the Senator from Naboo (and likely earlier), he had planted a young apprentice, Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi order. Sifo-Dyas was his spy and covert ops, collecting information and eventually raising in the ranks, commissionning the clones, and altering the records. Yoda avoids the subject of Sifo-Dyas in AOTC when Obi-Awn asks about him; he is clearly holding back and pensive about the ramifications of Sifo-Dyas commissionning the clone army. Before the start of TPM, Palp was getting ready to act more openly and Sifo-Dyas was not in a position to be a part of his schemes; Maul was a fearsome, mysterious new figure to inspire fear in the Jedi, as well as a pure warrior to fight the Jedi directly. Maul's final test was likely to kill Sifo-Dyas in a way that the Jedi would not assume was Sith-related, but that was questionnable. Sifo-Dyas' treachery also died with him - to bring him out openly would raise suspicion in everything he had done and touched among the Jedi, so he was sacrificed to the cause. Dooku, while possily a loose ally at the time of TPM, would not have been a formal Sith at this time due to the Rule of Two. For those who say maybe Palp didn't follow the Rule of Two, he did so clearly in 2 places - sacrificing Dooku clearly for Annakin, and then was going to sacrifice Annakin for Luke in ROTJ. This is not to say that Dooku was not allied with Palpatine much earlier and was not a planned replacement for Maul; Dooku had clearly left the Jedi order and was not on Yoda's Christmas Card list... I would think that Palp probably sensed seperatist feelings in Dooku years earlier, manipulated him into leaving the order and encouraged him to form the seperatist army, slowly bringing him over before finally revealing himself to Dooku when Maul was killed. Finally, if Dooku was Sifo-Dyas as some folks believe, I would have to think that the Jedi would have gone through everything he touched with a fine toothed comb when he left the order, but the star records were left tampered with and they clearly seemed to have no concerns about trusting the clone army he would have commissionned.

    This isn't really any sort of proof, but for some reason Sifo-Dyas sounds suspiciously like Sideous...

    Anyhow, that's my take on it and maybe there are holes galore that I've missed...
  4. Donlon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2005
    I dont think its maul. Maul always seemed kinda young to me(imo) and I would think Sifo to be older(imo),specily if he was on the council..
  5. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    The movies state he was a Jedi Council member who was killed prior to the clone order being made. We are to assume Tyrannus posed as Sifo-Dyas to order the clones.

    The book says Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Council member who sensed a growing corruption in the Republic and took it upon himself to order the clones and then the Sith killed him and hijacked the project.

    I either case, Sifo-Dyas is not an alias for some other character. He is a Jedi who was killed.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    A lot of this fuss and confusion is due mainly to the movies refusal to call Count Dooku by his 'real name', or his Sith name, Darth Tyranus. He is never referred to as Darth Tyranus, EVEN ONCE, in the entire trilogy. The Sith lords are: Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Plaguis (in passing) and... Count Dooku? So the reference to a man named Tyranus hiring Jango on the moons of Blepterion 17 don't mean squat to the average movie-going Joe - as far as they know Tyranus adn Sifo-Dyas both are confusing, unknown characters. Sidious naming Dooku as Tyranus at the end of AotC doesn't help, because no one makes the connection or even remembers Jango's comments by that point except us fans.


    I think you underestimate the movie going audience. Dooku's a Sith and he's called Lord Tyranus. The vast majority will figure it out. And Sifo-Dyas is dead, so it don't matter. What does matter is the Emperor contacts the Clone Army, telling them to kill the Jedi. That tells you he is the mastermind.

    In a few weeks ROTS will be on DVD and people will be able to watch them all in order. They'll see the connections.
  7. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    I haven't read the book, but how and when specifically is this told? If it was early on or from a Jedi perspective, then this is certainly what "appears" to be the case at that point from that perspective. It was always in Sideous' interest that the Jedi trust the clones so they could be literally surrounded by clones in combat when Order 66 was called by him; he needed the vast majority of them killed in one swoop. Therefore making Sifo-Dyas' actions look like an effort to combat the growing corruption in the Republic is just what Palp wanted; that along with the terms of Sifo-Dyas' death clouded things a LOT. While the terms of Sifo-Dyas' death were never given, by Yoda's behavior, he clearly suspects at least that he was killed by the Sith once their presence is known.

    Either way, I originally thought that Dooku was Sifo-Dyas until I started thinking about the timeline and such which would mean he was not a Sith at the time of the clone order. The two it could have been ordering the clones in my mind would be either Sifo-Dyas as Palp's secret apprentice or Palp himself posing as Sifo-Dyas after having him killed - the Kaminoans would very likely accept that any dude in robes flashing a lightsaber and offering enough republic money was a Jedi. For this reason, we won't ever really know for sure who it was, but I think these are the two best options in my mind.
  8. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Labyrinth of Evil helps explain a lot of things. The only thing I'm still confused about is WHY Sifo-Dyas ordered clones in the first place.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    It was explained in the Visual Directory that newly elected Chancellor Palpatine met with Sifo-Dyas, after the Battle of Naboo. Sifo-Dyas told Palpatine his concerns about the return of the Sith and his vision of the dark times that lay ahead. Palpatine suggested that he create a Clone Army in secret, so that it could be used if need be. Sifo-Dyas was too weak and thus he agreed to the idea. Palpatine then told Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas, once he was assured that the deed had been done.
  10. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Thanks, that was the piece I was missing. So though a Jedi Master, Sifo-Dyas did something that big without even notifying the council? Unreal. And killing Sifo-Dyas was Dooku's test of loyalty to Palpatine and the Sith.
  11. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    This doesn't make sense to me... If Sifo-Dyas was any sort of ranking Jedi as of the battle of Naboo, why wouldn't Obi-Wan have ever heard of him in AOTC? Erasing the planet from the databanks would have required someone of Jedi Master rank as I recall at least. While there were hundreds of Jedi during TPM, the number of Masters would have to have been such that Obi-Wan would have heard his name at least...
  12. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
  13. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    The whole Sifo-Dyas thing is the one plot thread in the prequels that I feel was never explained to my satisfaction. Personally, I think it would have been better if Qui-Gon had ordered the clone army (or at least someone pretending to be him). That would have added a new dimension to his character rather than throwing in the name of another Jedi we never see. It also would have made more sense that the Kaminoans believe Obi-Wan arrived to inspect the clones, since they would have been ordered under his master's name.
  14. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    Then there would just be less for us to debate over and we'd have to find real things to do with our time :p
  15. DarthBlanco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2004
    star 4
    I said it before and I am saying it again. Now that all the pieces of the Syfo-Dyas story are in place I am sure eveyone agrees with me that it should have been worked into the PT plot. The 85 pages of this thread are proof that there is a lot of interest.

    Lucas missed the boat here in a big way.
  16. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    Actually, the fact that it has sparked this much interest and conjecture is proof that he should have left it out... Sometimes it's not about the destination, it's about the trip...
  17. DarthBlanco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2004
    star 4
    Well, I dont know how you came to that conclusion. Maybe you are on acid.....?
  18. Darth_Kurkhan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    I have not read the many previous posts and this one by me is pure speculation so here it goes...

    Death seems to be consistant in the initiation of new found Sith apprentice, I think that once Maul was dead, Sidious was beginning to Groom Dooku, whom had already left the order for his own reasons (an assumption since he is not seen at all in TPM) Having left the order, was the first open door to the darkside, then Sidious approached Dooku and began to twist him to the dark side (as much as he could be, I am still not convinced that Dooku was a full sith, he never seemed evil enough) the other door to help seal Dooku's loyalty to Sidious and the dark side was probably the murder of Sifo-Dyas while he was off world and alone, afterwards Dooku assumed his identity and placed the order for the clones and the rest is history...

    About the manipulation of the Jedi Archives, its not unreasonable to assume that Dooku still had access to them, even though he had left the order, based on what little we here about it in the films, he left the order on good terms and had the respect of the jedi (Mace Windu for example) he probably invented a reason for asking for access to the archives and while he was there, erased Kamino from the records.
  19. poodookoo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2004
    star 3

    He HAS heard of him!

    His initial reaction to the Kaminoans mentioning Sifo-Dyas ("Master who?") is one of surprise, rather than ignorance.

    This is supported by the fact that he says to Windu and Yoda :

    "They tell me the army was ordered by Master Sifo-Dyas - I was under the impression he died years ago." , or words to that effect.

    I will agree that Palpatine should've dropped a revalation to Windu during their duel, along the lines of:

    "Fool! It was one of your own, Master Sifo-Dyas, whom I persuaded to order the clone army in secret, after he came to warn me about the return of the Sith! HAHAHAHAHAAAAA! The irony!" :p

    Little things like that can go a long way to resolving plot strands, rather than having to wade through EU books for scraps of evidence...
  20. DarthBlanco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2004
    star 4

    Little things like that can go a long way to resolving plot strands, rather than having to wade through EU books for scraps of evidence...


    Exactamondo. Well said.
  21. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    Ok, yeah, I think I recall that line now; nonetheless, it sounded more historical than contemporary, so my contention still stands. :)

  22. poodookoo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2004
    star 3
  23. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    Nope, but bear in mind that the best advertisements are not necessarily your favorites ("Where's The Beef" or the annoying Mentos spots), but the ones that get the product name across and spawn recognition. It may frustrate you not to know the story (see also the the threads on Palp's origins, Annakin's birth, and whether Sideous threw the fight with Mace - all are very long as well), but it's causing discussion and additional interest in these things and Star Wars as a whole. Had Lucas answered every question and ended each in a conclusive way with no gaps between them, there would be no EU, no "Clone Wars" cartoon, no talk of TV shows, and probably about 2 discussion threads here...

    Point being, Lucas did not make Star Wars a marketing giant by tying every loose end up nice and neat - he opened the door to speculation for a reason. The best movies never do tie things up perfectly - did Casablanca need a sequel that showed what Rick (Humphrey Bogart's character) did after putting Ilsa (Bacall) on the plane? No. For that matter did the movie explain what Rick was doing when running guns to support an African revolution? No, these were left vague for a REASON - both left these items open to speculation and made his character more mysterious and interesting without adding a lot of content that was pointless to the specific story being told.
  24. Darth_Foo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 4
    me and a friend are watching the saga in order because she has never seen any of them. heres her reaction to the mystery (which i found surprising).

    at the end when sidious calls dooku tyrannus she said "oh so sidious ordered the clones using sifo-dyas' name while dooku erased the files from the jedi and hired jango"

    i was totally shocked. i think this is the right answer but i had to watch the movie a dozen times to figure it out! (well maybe not that many ;))

    so see it IS very apparent to average movie-goers. its also not nearly as complex as some make it out to be

    edit: woohoo started a new page!
  25. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    That was similar my reaction at first until I thought about timelines. I don't think Dooku was a Sith, or even working as actively with Sideous at that time; however he could have, I just don't think so. Nonetheless, this IS certainly one of the open possibilities - the facts we have are vague, leaving a number of options open. I think unless GL says decisively what happened (which would probably be some sort of conjecture on his part - I doubt this back story was ever planned), just go with the theory that makes you happiest. :)
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