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* OFFICIAL THREAD * The Birth Of Darth Vader - When, Where, and Why

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Holocron_Collector, Oct 5, 2004.

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  1. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 10, 2003
    I certainly do.
  2. Phoenix_Flame

    Phoenix_Flame Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 8, 2003
    Well, I 100% agree with ben_07's post on page one.

  3. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Aug 7, 2002
    I agree with Ben's post on page one also.

    For a few glorious days, he will be at his most powerful, the apprentice that Sidious has craved for since Maul's death. And then comes the DUEL, where Vader becomes a cyborg, and poor Sidious is left with a damaged apprentice and no potential Force-strong youngling.

    Isn't it amazing that he gets poor Vader who is isn't at his most powerful, but is STILL the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever, EVEN THEN? It's kinda cool. :cool: He ends up STILL laying the smack down on the Jedi, commanding the ENTIRE military, and staying ALIVE for 23 YEARS as an apprentice. All the others lasted a few years TOPS. And you just know Palps knew that if poor, crippled Vader wanted to, he could have wiped him out anytime. [face_devil] Vader just doesn't know it. If Vader is less than he wanted, he still got MORE than he bargained for. Imagine if Anakin had lived on with no cyborg stuff. Obi and Yoda wouldn't have made it to ANH. :eek:
  4. _dArTh_SoLo

    _dArTh_SoLo Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 11, 2002
    The death of Mace has to be one of those things that is not an outright act of evil for Anakin. Watching Mace die dramatically works so well. Anakin fighting Mace, trying to PROTECT PALPATINE, not meaning to KILL him would almost work if done the right way....

    It has to be almost accidental, yet at the same time not. Hard to explain, but if you understand storytelling you would know what I'm talking about. If not, you are just stupid.
  5. Xizor_Prince

    Xizor_Prince Jedi Youngling

    Nov 9, 2004
    Well,where to begin on the birth of Darth Vader..I think it began a while back when lil Anakin missed his mom, but that was many a years back.. He got married, illegal as a jedi, he got kicked out of the academy or the training program and wasnt allowed to be a jedi anymore, he remembered how palpatine was always on his side, he went to him for help, palpatine told him lies, made him get mad at the good guys, he fights the jedi out of anger(bad at this point), falls into the molten pit after the fight with Obi Wan, Palpatine saves him, fixes him up, and names him, VADER..........Booyah

    Where: who the hell knows
  6. Jedi_Aron_Tylander

    Jedi_Aron_Tylander Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 29, 2004
    I think this is what happened first...

  7. Jedi_Kix

    Jedi_Kix Jedi Youngling

    Nov 9, 2004
  8. RITRoccer

    RITRoccer Jedi Youngling

    Nov 2, 2004
    reading throu here got me thinking about this subject and the trailer.

    we know (or more or less assume) that the voice of vader in the trailer is nt JEJ. that said, im one to think that it possible that Anakin is christened Darth Vader after the mace fight on coruscant. the duel can still be blue vs. blue for now because there may not have been enough time for ani/vader to construct a new light saber.
    what could lend credibility to this, tho we wont know till the movie hits, is the line in the trailer. it could be that they modified it soley for the trailer. what im getting at is that perhaps this line is spoken in the aftermath of the mace fight and anakin's normal voice is heard. (would also allow the "rise" to not seem out of place when vader is merely strapped down and cant rise on his own). the voice was just changed for the trailer to match up with the scene it was cut with.
  9. arthurclavin2

    arthurclavin2 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 27, 2003


  10. Lord_Null

    Lord_Null Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 10, 2004
    Interesting topic, but esoteric to say the least.

    Really, the 'transformation' of Anakin is not like a caterpillar-coccoon-butterfly event.

    I really believe that there is an inevitability to Anakin's 'fall' into the darkside and I believe that the person responsible is.... Qui-Gon Jinn.

    Because of Qui-Gon's obsession with 'the living force' and people over conuct, Anakin was 'shoehorned' into the Jedi mold in a corrupted state. He was already too attached to emotion and getting what he wants. His mother... his relationship to Padme.. all of these things were just signposts on his slide to the dark side. Anger and other events certainly contribute, and accelerate that slide, but from a perspective of personal 'balance', love and obsession with others can also cloud your control and understanding of the force. Anakin's obsession with Padme is as much a contributor as his anger at his mother's death.

    Had Qui-Gon not insisted that Obi-Wan train Anakin, who knows what would have happened? But long before Episode III, we see the roots of Anakin's thrall with Palpatine, and he is already going to him for advice and mentoring in AOTC. Once he begins to allow Palps to influence his path, it's all over, unless there is a 'make or break' moment to pull him out.

    In addition, it appears to be Palpatine's style to remain hidden. Think of Darth Maul's unknown status. The fact that Dooku is also Darth Sidious, and how the Palps/Sidious duality is preserved. I believe that Anakin will remain 'hidden in plain sight' as a Sith Lord right among the Jedi for at least some portion of Ep III, and be found out and proclaimed as Darth Vader. Exactly when? I agree- when Tyranus is eliminated, and Sidious accepts Vader as his pupil. Also, he will have to wear the special Sith Underoos.

  11. Holocron_Collector

    Holocron_Collector Moderator Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 22, 2001
    According to the ROTS Vader toy card back, Anakin is not Vader until he's put in the suit:

    " Giving up everyone and everything he cares about, Anakin falls to the dark side. Encased in the black armore that will come to strike fear throughout the galaxy, he is no longer Anakin Skywalker--He is now Darth Vader. "
  12. DarthRonin1976

    DarthRonin1976 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 17, 2003
    I do not like Anakin before the suit, so this would please me. That suit has always been the embodiment of Vader, and a metaphor for Anakin's loss of his humanity. If they call him Vader before he gets the suit, it will undermine all those ideas, and make his entrance into ANH less compelling.

    I also want to see the Vader-Emperor in the senate scene, so this would give it more of a chance, I think.

    MECHA-SUPERIOR Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 3, 2001
    Anakin is Vader BEFORE the suit -- bank on it.

    He becomes a Sith after the Mace betrayal, and he ain't gonna be called Darth Skywalker. ;)

    Just as 'the Count' wasn't called Darth Dooku.


    From the recent updated entry at the OS:

    [blockquote]As turmoil engulfed the galaxy during the transition from Republic to Empire, Anakin fell to the dark side of the Force. Consumed by evil, Anakin abandoned his past and his humanity. He became Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, apprentice to the evil Emperor Palpatine.

    Sustaining grievous injuries at the hands of his former master, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Vader required cybernetic enhancements and replacements to sustain him. His pure innocent self seemingly lost forever, Darth Vader cast a dark pall over the galaxy, as he was one of the foremost agents responsible for the elimination of the Jedi order.[/blockquote]

  14. DarthRonin1976

    DarthRonin1976 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 17, 2003
    Just as 'the Count' wasn't called Darth Dooku.

    In fact he was never referred to as Darth Tyrannus at all. He was reffered to as Dooku, and Count Dooku. Noone ever refers to him as "Darth".

    THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 23, 2004

    I really believe that there is an inevitability to Anakin's 'fall' into the darkside and I believe that the person responsible is.... Qui-Gon Jinn.

    NO anakins fall to the darkside lies only with Anakin no one else.

    MECHA-SUPERIOR Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 3, 2001
    Well, alot of terms aren't actually said in the film. He was called Lord Tyranus by Sidious, and Lucasfilm copyrighted and registered "Darth Tyranus" as far back as summer 2000.

    Not to mention all official licenced/tie-in material (including the OS database) call him Darth Tyranus.

    [blockquote]But the Jedi didn't realize Dooku's secret. Behind a veneer of elegant charisma and well-tabled political arguments, Dooku had been corrupted by the power of the dark side. After his departure from the Jedi order, Dooku was seduced to the dark side by Darth Sidious, the Dark Lord of the Sith. By Sith tradition, Dooku adopted the name Darth Tyranus and added deceit and treachery to his already formidable array of weapons.[/blockquote]

    --Sith members change their names.

    --Anakin is a Sith before the lava bath

    --Anakin is Vader before the 'iron lung'

    Get used to it.

  17. obianikdart

    obianikdart Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 2, 2002
    NOpe I think their are conflicting words coming from both directions the OS , the toy packaging etc etc ...

    the most important thing to understand is ,first of all the suit , SOme folks think that the suit is Darth Vader ,lemme make something clear to you , the suit is not some haloween costume its a device a walking lung ,that is able to let Vader stay alive ,thats it their is nothing more to it ,its a suit in which Vader will be trapt in for his rest of his live .

    WHy because vader when challenging his former master ,somehow ends up horribly destroyed and so is inserted into the suit in order to stay alive .

    he doesnt become evil becasue he is in the suit , he is evil before that ,why do you think he duels with his former master .

    IF afther all the evidence you still think that he is good and just becasue he fell in the lava he becomes darth vader then youre wrong .

    The story is going to explain to us how anakin became evil thats the first part , and the second part is how he ended up in the suit .

    Thats why The story ends their when he is in the suit and thats why hell be only in for a very short amount of time , cuz thats how the story is .

    Their is overwhelming evidence ,methaphors ,posters all
    showing us that he indeed is going to do evil things in this film and that he is vader .

    I agree it starts by him finishing off DOoku ,thats the first step , thats where he gets encouraged by sidious to use his hatred as a form to finish off Dooku .

    One more thing to mention is The amount of time he spends with sidious in the movie ,from the quotes from Ian ,it all indicates that basically all of his scenes are with Hayden .

    Its basically a Master and apprentice thing ,Its all been building up since episode 1 ,"we will be wathing youre career with GREAT interest " .

    In episode 2 we learn that indeed he is getting influenced by Palps with the sith theme music in the background and all , the way they walk together the way anakin follows him around its basically that .

    The way anakin defends palps etc etc.

    We later discover in the picnick scene the way he thinks about politics which is basically what palps is doing , dictatorship .

    the influence is already their , he thinks he needs to be all powerfull and all that.

    The disturbing thing in the scene where his mother dies
    is that he is upset about his mothers death but what he is more upset about is that he is not powerfull enough ,and he starts talking about stopping people from dieng
    and that its all obi wans fault .

    Their is already conflict creating between these two .
    In the scene where padme falls from the ship ,their is a big argument ,in which Yoda with a disturbing face senses it all .

    Obi wans remark only fuel anakins hatred more , he feels he is being held back by the jedi .
    You will be expelled from the jedi order !! he is extremly pisssed of in that scene until obi wan is able to calm him down a little .

    Anakin does not listen at all to obi wan , in the dooku duel obi wan tells him not to go ,he does the complete opposite thing and gets his hand chopped off.

    As you can see its all been buidling up , and in this one it will be all conected ,it will all come together and thats why he turns so early in the movie ,thats why
    he takes sidious side over the helpless Mace and his posse .

    They expect anakin to come to their side but anakin choses a different path .
    ANd that is the ultimate 360 turn for anakin .
    He is perfectly aware of what is going on .

    The way i look at it is that he will get different missions during the movie like darth maul .
    The complete fall happends in the jedi temple , thats where He helped the emperor hunt down and destroy the jedi knights , afther this scene he was seen on the webcam kneeling down , this scene is the same scene as in ROTJ where sidious comes out and we can see him bowing down for him .

    RISE MY FRIEND , I belive that in this scene he will be knighted with the name Darth Vader .
    The knighting scene happeneds before he is in the suit
    and thats why h
  18. DarthRonin1976

    DarthRonin1976 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 17, 2003
    I see. So you backtrack and change things to fit your theories? Nice.

    Get used to it.

    This type of elitist "I know everything about ROTS" comment does nothing to sway another reader in your direction. And, in fact, this kind of stuff is beginning to wear thin as we get closer to May.
  19. mactabard_25

    mactabard_25 Jedi Youngling

    Oct 12, 2004
    This discussion may well still be occuring after the ROTS is released. GL may not make a defining point when Ani becomes Vader. He may just leave it open to interpretation. Some will still feel it was after the suit, some will still feel it was before the suit, that he becomes Vader. And the before the suit people will still fight with in their ranks over the point in time (before the suit)when he turned. It is going to turn out to be everyone's personal interpretation of the events that happen to Anakin through the course of the movie.

    Having said that, everyone is entitled to an interpretation or opinion about what happens(even if it is left open) so here is mine.
    Personally at this time I belive Anakin is Vader before the suit. However I, like everyone else, have not seen the movie yet and could be proven terribly wrong.

  20. DarthRonin1976

    DarthRonin1976 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 17, 2003
    mactabard--I think you could e right. I keep thinking about this Sith Knighting ceremony everyone keeps talking about, and I don't think anything as pretentious as that is going to happen. It is silly in my mind. But, if we are to go along with the trailer, then dialogue has at least been recorded by McDiarmid saying "Rise, Lord Vader". Maybe that is all we will get? Maybe that is all we need to hear.

    MECHA-SUPERIOR Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 3, 2001
    No, it will not be open to interpretation.

    Anakin becomes Darth Vader --Sidious' Sith apprentice -- half way through the film.

    I'm not saying this to be elitist or grandstand. This is a spoiler forum and that info is TRUTH. It was verified by someone who read the script, and recently corroborated by a specific passage in Anakin's new EP3 update at the OS database. This was definitely changed to coincide with EP3's official story. There is no two ways about it. Anakin will be called Vader before the aftermath of the lava -- count on it.

    And if you think about it, it was logical anyway.

    -Sith apprentice=name change

    -Anakin definitely becomes a Sith apprentice before Mustafar.

    Anakin's name is Darth Vader before he becomes a machine.

    Lord Vader in his prime:


    Trust me. ;)

  22. SnakePlisken

    SnakePlisken Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 26, 2002
    Seriously, after the trailer there should be no doubt. That shot of the eyes is there to say 'here's the RotS Darth Vader'.

    [blockquote]According to the ROTS Vader toy card back, Anakin is not Vader until he's put in the suit:

    " Giving up everyone and everything he cares about, Anakin falls to the dark side. Encased in the black armore that will come to strike fear throughout the galaxy, he is no longer Anakin Skywalker--He is now Darth Vader. "
    [/blockquote]To me this is the point where his old name 'no longer has any meaning', where before he still had that aspect to him as well as Darth Vader.
  23. darth_of_the_night

    darth_of_the_night Jedi Master star 2

    Sep 21, 2004
    Questions that have been in the back of my head ever since I saw this pic


    In this, it shows Vader strapped to a table or chair of some sort. I know this may have been discussed before, but on the Special Features on the OT DVD, we see him like this, and you don't see an arm...therefore it says he isn't strapped to a table in the special features. We see Vader walking up the steps to go by Emp. Palps, but maybe that is a later shot? If you look at this:


    it shows a rough picture of that scene. Thanks for replies and please give your opinion! Oh, and if you look at this:

    close between the guy with the 200 ft. shirt and the other guy, you can possibly see the chair that Vader is strapped to! Thanks! Here is the Vader steps pic:

  24. KardarlSantesce

    KardarlSantesce Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 9, 2004
    Maybe thats the scene where Vader is knighted. Vader kneels before his master "like when he talked to him in ESB"
    After the ceremony:
    "Lord Vader"
    "Yes, my master"
    If you look closer at the third pic, it looks like Lucas and Vader are squaring off, toe to toe Lucas :eek: j/k Lucas to Vader: "I created you Darth, and now I'm going to destroy you."
  25. Briareos201

    Briareos201 Jedi Youngling

    Jul 17, 2002
    It seems to me that Anakin becomes Darth Vader upon becoming Darth Sidious's apprentice. I think that he becomes Darth Sidious's apprentice about the time he kills (assists in killing) Mace Windu or storms the Jedi Temple. Perhaps when a Sith master takes an apprentice, the master grants the apprentice a Sith name.

    Sith names are not necessarily public. Darth Sidious is (supposedly) known as Palpatine by the rest of the galaxy. Count Dooku is (supposedly) Darth Tyrannus, but he continues to be known as Dooku to the rest of the galaxy. Thus, Anakin might be given the name Darth Vader, even though the galaxy continues (for a time) to know him as Anakin.

    However, at some point Anakin must be revealed as Darth Vader to either Obi Wan or Yoda. If not, Obi Wan could not know that Darth Vader is Anakin, especially if he leaves Anakin for dead after the duel (assuming that he doesn't meet Darth Vader in the suit face-to-face until ANH).

    I was hoping that Anakin would don a version of the suit when he becomes Darth Sidious's apprentice (and becomes Darth Vader), but without the full helmet and the life support stuff--similar to the suit worn by Luke in the Dark Empire comic series.
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