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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by rhonderoo, Nov 8, 2005.

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  1. Sidious-3

    Sidious-3 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2005
    I'm still undecided, there are things on both sides that buff their ideas but I'm going to stay undecided since we don't know if Yoda almost won, but the written stuff shows that Sidious did win... so I'm neutral in this debate....
     
  2. halfwits-r-us

    halfwits-r-us Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2005


    I think you can see Yoda's lightsabre end as he is in Bail's speeder. This was talked about in the continuity thread I believe.
     
  3. Tyrantus

    Tyrantus Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2004
    I posted in this thread way back when it was on one of its earlier versions, but I'll do so again. First off, to lay down some facts about myself...I am no Yoda fan, Sidious hater, Sith<Jedi believer, or any of that. I also want to note I posted here when the movie was still out, but now I'm posting here after reviewing the film multiple times. So, here goes my thoughts on this clash of Light vs. Dark...

    Well, to start, it was defintely one of my favorite duels of all six movies, as it probably comes in second behind Anakin vs. Obi-Wan. I just wish it wan't so short, as it was roughly 3-5 minutes if you take out the interruptions of the An/Obi duel. Yoda and Sidious proved they were most powerful and skilled warriors of their respective sides. Yoda, the small but deadly Light-user of the Force, fresh from learning most of his Jedi were killed. Darth Sidious, the cunning Darkside warrior who has just made his check in taking full control of the galaxy. Both are determined to win, and willing to put everything on the line to do so.

    I feel this battle was pretty even in terms of skill. Yoda in my opinion proved he could easily best Sidious when it came to close-range lightsaber combat. There were multiple times where Sidious was shown struggling with the locks and speed of Yoda's attacks. Sidious on the other hand showed great mastery of the Force with his hurling Senate Pods at ease. If this came down to a contest of Senate Pod hockey, I'd say Sidious would win quite easily. After seeing Sidious fighting Mace and Yoda, it seems to me he prefers long-range over close-range any day.

    The battle seemed to be going smooth and easily followable until we leave off with them sparring on the central podium. Once we get back to their fight, we immediately see Yoda flying though the air, landing on a Senate Pod. Thus, we get to Sidious's pod throwing. I would like to know why Yoda left the central podium to begin with, as I don't know whether he was forced off it somehow or if decided to do it freely. Anyway, Yoda proved he was quite capable of defense just like he was at offense, as he advoided the pods at a good rate with the exception of one and was able to throw one back at full force at Sidious. It's interesting there because Sidious just makes a break for it and doesn't even try to stop it.

    The question there is whether it was too powerful of a throw for Sidious to handle or was he just being lazy. Now, as I've elaborated on how each has their merits in power, I'll have to give my dreaded opinion on who I think won. A few things in advance about this...Usually, whatever Lucas states is considered G-level canon, no questions asked. I have heard he says on the commentary that Yoda loses, but that there I see as opinion. Basic information about planets, events, and characters are one thing, but when it comes to fights, I believe 100% that those are completely opinionated.

    I believe this duel came down to a tie. I don't believe either won or lost. In my opinion, Yoda did not lose like some believe. Look at it like this: you've just fallen about 20-30 meters to the surface, lost a lightsaber, and Clonetroopers are already in the building, entering the Senate building where you're at. Nobody in their right mind would try continuing, not even if you are Yoda. Even if he found his lightsaber, it'd be crazy fighting Sidious up there with those odds. You'd have Clones shooting at you while you're contending with the Dark Lord of the Sith, who is not eactly a pushover. Some say Yoda always was going to lose because he had the Organa-beacon plan. Again, no. Chances are if you kill a new Empire's Emperor, the people and soldiers will not appreciate that. You'd have a very hard time getting out of the building alive, so Yoda's plan made sense for whatever the outcome was.

    In terms of power, and who could ultimately defeat the other, I'd say Yoda without a slighest doubt. Mace could of defeated him after all, as he was officially about to until Anakin intervened. (I'm not about to discuss this, read the "Making of Revenge
     
  4. r8hitman

    r8hitman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    hey sithrules70, how about this...

    Yoda failed because he fell, then he bailed with Bail.

    :p
     
  5. SrWilson

    SrWilson Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    I personally love this fight I think the shot of sidious and yoda rising on the podium while fighting is one of the best shots in the film especially when it goes birds eye wide.
    The saber out the sleeve thing is just too damn cool lol Yoda needs a slicker way of igniting his saber.

    The saber duel looked even to me although we don't see the end of it sidious may have just got away and stopped sabering prefering to use the force or maybe it was knocked from him - if its not on screen we never know for sure despite the written script which is tons longer than the film itself.

    You have to Love yoda jumping and dodging the pods showing hes hardcore and havin none of it.
    Finally yoda is disarmed and sidious does lightning again this time yoda blocks it and theres a blast Yoda falls. One he realises hes out of time he surely must know the emporers forces would only be a matter of time arriving. And second maybe it was just the forces will that Yoda will not be the one to kill the emporer.

    Technically sidious won it because his intentions were carried out - survive!!!
    Yodas objective was to kill the emporer and he failed to do so.
     
  6. Inno-Vader

    Inno-Vader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2004
    IMO Yoda was arrogant enought to think he could waltz right into Palpidious' chambers, knock out every guard, defeat Palpidious quickly enough to avoid reinforcements and leave having saved the galaxy.

    In that respect Yoda lost because he failed to achieve his goal.

    Regarding the duel footage, it would appear each had an answer for the attack of the other.

    For those of you who are set on the whole higher ground concept, I offer this: Yoda reversed the senate pod trajectory and hurled it back at Sidious. When Sidious fled and Yoda rose to attack they were both on the same level. It was only the force explosion itself that knocked Yoda off the last pod. It was the force blast that gave Sidious the advantage. IMO, the ability to regain ground is in fact a sign of being stronger that your opponent.

    Sidious only needed to stall the fight in order to be perceived as the victor. Yoda needed to fend off legions of troops if he intended on sticking around to finish the fight.

    As mentioned so many times by you guys, Yoda needed to flee. Surely he didn't expect Sidious to call of his troops and engage in a fair fight, winner take the galaxy, did he? However the fact that Yoda was so heartbroken and ashamed after his duel shows he truly believed he could win. This is why I said he was arrogant. Forming an opinion on your adversary with no knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses is foolish as much as it is arrogant.

    Yoda lost the fight before it began.

    I look forward to your replies.




    END TRANSMISSION
     
  7. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Well, Inno-Vader: I think Yoda had much insight. I don't think he underestimated Sideous. He knew what he was capable of. He probably sensed that Windu was killed - not a small feat to wack him off - needed some help though.

    Yoda did not loose the fight in terms of fighting skills or powers, there I would say that he was equally good or better. He lost, precisly as most of you say, because he failed in his mission - he didn't beat the Emperor. And of course he was dissapointed with himself - to live 850 years only to not succeed, it must suck!

    It would be cool had GL made Yoda come out as more of a victor, meaning that he had to leave because in the end he was fighting both clones and Sideous - now that would be amazing, and Yoda would have to use even more than what he is worth:cool:
     
  8. Darth_Argyle

    Darth_Argyle Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2005
    When Yoda goes after Sidious in RoTS, he first "disposes" of two red guards at the doorway. Did he kill them, or just render them unconscious?
     
  9. CosPalpatine

    CosPalpatine Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2002
    When the Empeoror tied to run out of his office after Yoda threw him across the room, what did he think would result? Wasn't his goal the extermination of the Jedi? How could he leave Yoda alive?

    If he fled due to fear of Yoda, he must have suprised himself. I guess I'm trying to analyze the Emperor's fears and thoughts through the duel.
     
  10. monarque1972

    monarque1972 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    As I wrote in the Sidious vs Yoda version 2 thread...

    - Winner considering the outcome of the duel : Sids

    - Winner from a blow for blow and damage inflicted perspective : pretty much a draw

    - Most powerful in term of basic strenght in the force : draw (and the lightning struggle is a clear indication of that, as both Sidious and Yoda were giving it everything they had and they were both knocked off the pod by an explosion caused by their colliding power.

    - Most powerful in term of potential danger for the ennemy: Sids, because of his sith lightning (which is nothing less than a very powerful extra weapon that Jedi won't use).

    Once again, I think it's important to precise what we mean by "most powerful" , "winner" etc, because those terms can be analysed from DIFFERENT angles, which can bring DIFFERENT answers (as you can see in my analysis of the fight).

    Regards
     
  11. strider24

    strider24 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2005
    I am in complete agreement with Tyrantus,and I really can't add anything to that since it was so excellently put. My only comment is the Sidious/Yoda duel may very well be my favorite duel of the entire saga. Well it's at least tied with the Vader/Luke duel in ESB.
     
  12. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I don't dispute the lightning struggle - yet the perception I got was that Sidious was having a much easier time of the overblown Force powers than Yoda was.

    I mean, he stands there, on a floating pod - three other pods floating behind him - just flinging his arms about to control them. There is no sign of exhaustion or fatigue there. Just "whoosh, whoosh, whoosh bwahahahahaha!"

    Contrast this with Yoda flinging one pod back, or even how tiring it looks for Yoda to prevent that thing falling on Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode II...

    So it would appear that the Emperor is indeed stronger - but in many ways, I think this futher emphasises the heroism of Yoda. The entire fight was a much more difficult struggle for Yoda than it was for Palpatine, he had to work harder in order to combat Sidious' strength.

    After all, it makes sense in the context of the dark side being "quicker" and "easier" (or, as Lucas has more recently put it, "more powerful")

    Now, there's a question - had Yoda given into the dark side, who'd have won then?
     
  13. thechozn1

    thechozn1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2005
    I agree Inno-Vader, I do believe the fight was lost before it even got going. That's the point though according to the novel. Yoda realizes that the more his light shines, the darker the shadow will become, therefore he gets the hell outta there. Won in the end though right?
     
  14. Darth_Hydra

    Darth_Hydra Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2001
    I'm still unsure as to whether or not I think either of them lost and who was/is more powerful. Yoda didn't capture or kill Sidious and vice versa. If Palpatine was more powerful than why did he try to run away? If Sidious didn't have control of the clones and Yoda hadn't run away I think it could have gone either way.
     
  15. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2005
    It would be cool had GL made Yoda come out as more of a victor, meaning that he had to leave because in the end he was fighting both clones and Sideous - now that would be amazing, and Yoda would have to use even more than what he is worth

    I think it would be better if the Emperor came out more of a victor since Lucas said the dark side is stronger. It would have shown this point better if Yoda was simply hit by force lightning over and over again and forced to retreat, without even putting up a fight.
     
  16. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    Now, there's a question - had Yoda given into the dark side, who'd have won then?


    I made a separate thread for that, actually. You can read it here.
     
  17. Vaeron

    Vaeron Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2005
    They were pretty evenly matched, to the extent that Yoda was the better duelist and Sidious was better at the long range/force manipulation attacks. His long-range superiority is probably why Sidious took the battle into the senate chamber to begin with. He wasn't trying to leave, he was maximizing his advantage.

    I still can't help but think the empty robe falling is supposed to symbolize Yoda's death if he stays, though, especially since when he sees it is when he decides to escape.

     
  18. Galathor45

    Galathor45 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Since everyone is giving their two cents, I think I'll give mine. Okay first of all I have no bias towards any one character, so don't tell me my love for a character is blinding my judgement.

    When I originally watched the movie in theaters, what I saw was a equal skill in dueling and force powers between force powers. At the end of the duel however when Sidious used force lightning and Yoda blocked, gathered it, and deflected it back. Watching it a second time now on DVD however, I see yoda didn't exactly deflect it back but more so it gathered until it became unstable and exploded. However the look of fear in Sidious's eyes and face remains, and it shows Sidious can not overwhelm Yoda, and vice versa.

    Now Yoda fleeing was totally understandable in my point of view because I mean come on, he lost his lightsaber, and he was just as exhausted as Sidious. What could he have done if he stayed? You know if you were in his shoes you would have done the same. In that sense Yoda did not fail because he survived, but in another sense he did fail becuase he didn't destroy the sidious, and in a more general view, the sith. Sidious however also failed in destroying Yoda, and in a more wide perspective, the last of the jedi.

    Neither accomplished anymore than the other, so in that sense I view the duel as a draw, a stalemate, or whatever you want to call it. I also think that they are both masters of their force powers. I also don't believe in anyway that the darkside is stronger than the light, if so the galaxy would still be under Imperial control, actually, if you follow the philosophy the darkside it stronger than the light then the Jedi would have become extinct long ago. You have to view things as Ying and Yang, everything has a equal opposite.
     
  19. DS_Emp_Viper

    DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2001
    I disagree with just about everything there, first off the whole point of the PT is that the "Ying and Yang" is OUT of balance. The Darkside IS stronger. The whole point of the chosen one was to correct that imbalance.

    Now that thats out of the way, Yoda lost. He went in with everything he had against the galaxies emperor and lost. He lost his lightsaber, he lost his robe, and he lost his pride. Not only that but he took some hard hits too. And ultimately he ran away to hide on a swamp.
    That is definatly not a draw, but a crushing defeat. Hence "Into exile I must go, failed I have". He was done and he knew it.
     
  20. lordvicious

    lordvicious Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2005
    I agree DS Emp. I can't help but feel that GL wanted to show an even more overwhelming defeat for Yoda (he started that way according to the Making of Book), but he ended up showing a pretty near draw that led to discussions such as this. That is a shame. A crushing Yoda defeat (like the novel) would have made so much more sense for the saga and for this movie. I can't help but thing GL caved because of the popularity of Yoda. I won't even go into how the Mace battle and George's confirmation even further throws the entire story out of whack.
     
  21. Galathor45

    Galathor45 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2005
    I don't think you really understood what I was trying to say, and I don't blame you, I was literally half asleep when I wrote that and still am. What I was trying to say wasn't that the Ying and Yang theory was balanced in that time in the Galaxy what I'm saying is that the lightside and the darkside are generally Ying and Yang, opposites, and ones not neccesarily stronger than the other. I wasn't really talking about the "unbalance of the force" in the galaxy, more on a general perspective and to show that Yoda and Sidious are Ying and Yang, complete opposites, though one is not neccesarily stronger than the other. (sorry if I'm repeating myself lol)

    Anyway, if you see it as Yoda having lost everything, that's your opinion. If yoda lost everything he'd be dead. And I don't really agree with people when they say "Yoda lost his pride". Yoda doesn't have pride, no Jedi do, their humble and selfless. I think yoda was just disappointed he didn't destroy Sidious. And Sidious should have been just as much as a loss of pride as you accuse Yoda of having, I mean he didn't win either. He's just as much a loser as yoda, if not more, there was one thing that he failed to ensure was taken care of to secure his reign as Emperor, the Skywalker twins. Indeed that's what makes Yoda a winner, and it's why the end scene is called "A New Hope". :) (Please no hard feelings I'm just expressing my opinion, and that's what they are by the way my opinion, not fact.)
     
  22. -maynard-

    -maynard- Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2005
    i think this was a perfect way for Lucas to show a defeat, yet its outcome still dependant on circumstance (body positioning in the pod and environment).

    the fight itself was a draw in the larger context. in terms of yoda's present goals, he clearly loses.

    but sidious also fails to kill yoda, which comes back to bite him. sidious clearly wasnt happy with his victory. he knew full well that yoda escaping was dangerous. "the jedi are relentless."
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yoda lost. He gave it his all, but could do no more against Palpatine. He had undersestimated the Dark Lord's power. He hadn't realized that the reason things happened, was because the Jedi had not adapted like the Sith did. Palpatine's reflexes were far greater than his. Thus Yoda left the fight, defeated and sadden that he could not do more. Palpatine only contacted the Clonetroopers because Yoda had disappaeared on him.
     
  24. Violetsaber

    Violetsaber Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Man alive, Sinister, you are taking names and kicking butt today! It's too bad your on-the-money synopses probably aren't going to convince the die-hards...

    Kudos!

    Violetsaber
     
  25. dude4c

    dude4c Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2003
    this was my favorite dule in the saga also. i'm of the opinion that this dule ended in a draw. both failed at their mission. sids did not rid the galaxy of the jedi, and yoda didn't destroy the sith. when sids disarms yoda and the lightning attack begins, we see yoda almost surcum to it. that was the most strained i've ever seen yoda, but to see yoda turn back with fierce determination and actually strike fear into the emperor was great. i am a yoda fan but i will say he obviously underestimated the power of sids.
    yoda's force jump abilities we're a surprise to me. some have critisized the dialog in the begining of that dule as being over the top. i loved it. "faith in your apprentice, misplaced it may be, as is your faith in the darkside of the force".
    awesome.
     
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