**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

The way I read the way Yoda crawled away was rather the defeat of the Jedi and democracy than purely Yoda's defeat. Yes, Yoda suffered a defeat. He didn't destroy the Sith. He had been a Jedi for nearly 900 years, and still couldn't overcome the darkness that had consumed the Republic.

Yoda lost because it wasn't his destiny to defeat Sideous. It was the chosen one's destiny. Although Yoda perhaps knew it, he didn't fully realize. Either way he had to try. A Jedi should never give up.

As for the force powers: I think Yoda showed the greatest powers. It is more difficult to counter an attack and prevent it than attacking. Also, remember that Yoda didn't want to run. He tried to cling on to the pod. Remember that he scratched the pod... He simply ran out of time...

 

The OS databank states that "the Emperor proved too powerful to defeat" and that "in the end, the Sith bested him". Not "the environment bested him", not "Yoda left because clonetroopers were waiting", not "Yoda realized his hands were to small", but that "the Sith bested him." The Novelizsation states that Yoda realized he didn't have it and that he had reached the limits of his strength. Now the animators themselves have confirmed that Yoda has been defeated and still people are making the point that it wasn't him who was defeated but the Jedi order, that clonetroopers were the cause why he left and that it was all a matter of bad luck. I guess unless Lucas himself sends a sealed letter to each and every Yoda fan personally which confirms that Yoda was bested this debate will never see an end.

 

well the problem is that there are too many sources. we have Lucas, the novel, the OS databank, and the movie itself. people are going to draw their own conclusions on this battle. there are things we don't see on film like Yoda disarming Sidious. had we saw this it may have changed the way this battle is percieved.

i think the film version of this battle shows a stalemate (as far as powers go), and a victory of the sith over the jedi.

 

My point exactly!

I also like what Dude4c had to say: "i think the film version of this battle shows a stalemate (as far as powers go), and a victory of the sith over the jedi".....Yes, a victory of the "SITH" over the Jedi, not Sidious over Yoda, because a victory would imply that Sidious killed him, he did NOT!

 

Then I don't see the point of this entire forum.
McDiarmid said Palpatine was 500 times faster than light, if not even sound. What should we draw from that quote? That the movies move so slowly and badly that someone needs to tell us what truly happened? OR, should we draw the conclusion that he doesn't know anything about physics and so what he said wasn't really believable? I think rather that many things are said that is not necessarily true. I think McDiarmid tried to say that Palpatine was very very powerful, much more than his appearances showed - but he exaggerated greatly.

Everything is up for interpretation. There are many ways of seeing star-wars, as there is many ways of reading a book. Lucas hadn't shown the battle to be as equal if he intended Yoda to have no chance, as the OS says. Clearly their force powers were similar. Neither seemed to best the other with a saber. Yoda tried to cling on to the pod, but was unable to. If he tried to hang on, he didn't want to leave the fight. He lost, I'm not arguing otherwise. The sith ruled the galaxy once more. Yoda's nemesis, Sideous, defeated the whole Jedi-order. If Yoda didn't fail, I don't know what fail is. However, the film shows them being equals, and Yoda did gain the upper hand in their force duel.

 

No, I don't see them being equals. Yoda was on the defensive the entire fight, Sidious more than kept up with him in the dueling part.

Yoda lost. The OS backs it up.

Yoda fans can debate all they want.

 

I disagree. Yoda clearly gained the upper hand with the Force Duel at the end of the fight. Simply view the movie. He was able to NEUTRALIZE and RETURN Sidious' most potent weapon upon himself. That in itself is REMARKABLE considering that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. Here's a question: if Sidious bested Yoda with Force powers then why was it that "HE WAS YELLING", after Yoda composed himself, and returned them to him? Just from viewing the film that argument seems counter-intuitive.
Having said that, how could one rush to the conclusion that Sidious "BEAT" Yoda? I'm confused with your argument? I think you need to clarify what your definition of "Lost" is. If you define Yoda losing in the sense that he was unable to "KILL" Sidious, then yes, he clearly failed. If you're purporting that Sidious "won" however, then you're mistaken, because Sidious didn't "win" in the sense that he was able to conquer Yoda, or ALL OF THE JEDI FOR THAT MATTER. He did not.
I don't understand how you could say that Yoda was on the defensive the entire duel? I would actually argue that it was Sidious who was on the defensive the entire duel: that is why HE HAD TO RESORT TO USING HIS FORCE POWERS TO THROW PODS AT YODA, BECAUSE YODA WAS "ATTACKING HIM WITH "HIS" LIGHTSABER" FROM A LOW POSITION IN THE SENATE CHAMBERS. Until the point when Yoda decided to put his lightsaber away and throw one of the pods back at Sidious he WAS ON THE OFFENSIVE.... Sidious was "defending" himself from Yoda by escaping to a higher position while he was throwing pods at him. Just because he was (quite impressively) able to throw several pods at Yoda from a fixed position does not mean that he was "winning" the duel.. No. He was protecting himself FROM YODA BY DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM HIM!!!!!
The duel was a draw... No party emerged victorious. Even though Sidious's Lightning is clearly shown to be neutralized at the end of the duel... If you accept that fact, that the Lightning was neutralized (as was clearly seen in the film) then how can one say that Yoda "LOST"? Listen, I don't care who "WON" the battle.. I am not partial to Yoda or Sidious. I have simply formulated an opinion based on what I saw in the film, and from the film I was not convinced that neither opponent WON. But I am convinced that Yoda was able to gain the "UPPER-HAND" on Sidious at the end of the fight, by viewing that pissed off look in his face, right before Sidious starts to yell in pain... That to me symbolizes that Sidious' Force Powers were fully spent, and Yoda had "a little" bit left over had he not of fallen off the pod...

-But then we all know that it was not Yoda's destiny to kill the Sith.....BUT he did give him a good run for his money...

 

^^^ I agree ObiJuan. But I also think Yoda was superior in skills to Sidious -- it's just that he had to attack, which puts him at a serious disadvantage with the force. Through all the movies, the defensive jedi usually wins. Sidious put himself in that position, defending himself. I give him credit for that.

But I'm happy Yoda is better with the force and lightsaber fighting.

 

I agree. Ultimately it wasn't Yoda's destiny to kill the sith - it should have been since he was the more stable character, but I guess the force doesn't work like that.

 

Yesterday I had a visit from a friend, a casual Star Wars fan, as I would call it. She's never read the book or the OS entries. I told her about the idea discussed here that Yoda hadn't lost and the fight was a draw. She just laughed and shook her head on the very idea. To her it was completely clear that Yoda was beaten. So much for "clearly their force power were similar" and Yoda gaining the upper hand in the movie.

In my opinion, interpretation, if it claims to be authentic, can only go as far as to not contradict the creator. The animators, in a sense, are Yoda's creators and they have confirmed that Yoda was defeated. And the OS is called "the official site" for a reason (McDiarmid was speaking in metaphorical terms - if you've seen the interview where he made that statement, it makes that pretty clear). I know of not one single official source that's talking about the fight being a draw or about Yoda gaining the upper hand. The only people who advocate this idea are Yoda- or Jedi-order-fans.

What people make of a movie is to a large part influenced by a phenomenon known as "selective perception" - people see what they want to see. That's why statements of the persons involved in the making of the movie shouldn't be dismissed as BS. It helps to keep selective perception within reasonable limits. Of course, everyone is free to feel that he would rather have things different, but then that's a personal and not an authentic interpretation. Otherwise the consequence would be that there isn't any intrinsic meaning to anything in the story at all, and you can even ignore Lucas' comments, because everyone can make of the story anything he likes. And with that kind of an "anything goes" philosophy there is really no point in a forum like this because no statement can be argued against on any grounds whatsoever. If any interpretation is valid no matter what evidence speaks against it, what is the point of even discussing it? But that's clearly exceeding the bounds of what "authentic interpretation" means for me.

 

Yoda lost. The fight was even for the most part, but in the words of Obiwan, Palpatine had the "high ground" in the Senate chamber, tossing pods like they were rocks. Yoda obviously had strength enough to match him at times, but in the end Palpatine had too much for the Master of the Jedi to handle. Don't get me wrong I love Yoda, but if Yoda's proclamation of "I have failed" isn't enough, then what is?

 

I don't understand this claim at all. Didn't they BOTH lose, because last time I checked no one emmerged as the clear victor? Sidious' primary purpose for issuing Order #66 was to eradicate ALLLLLLLLL of the Jedi. He was able to destroy 98% of them. Yoda's primary purpose was to terminate Darth Sidious, he did not.

If we accept those two conditions, and clearly there is no winner, then how can one say that "specifically" Yoda lost? Or specifically Sidious lost? That assertion doesn't make sense because it simply isn't accurate! Therefore if there isn't any clear winner then how can one argue that Yoda lost? Furthermore, if there isn't any clear winner how could one argue that Sidious lost? That train of thought just doesn't make sense. Like I have previously said: Sidious lost in his mission to DESTROY ALL THE JEDI (he did, except he couldn't kill OBI WON and *****YODA******), and Yoda lost in his mission to destroy all the Sith. NO ONE LOST, NO ONE WON!!! If someone were to say that Yoda won, I would disagree because it didn't happen! (Even though I think he bested Sidious with the Force Powers, but we can debate that until the cows come home). The same applies to Sidious, if someone says that he won, I'll disagree there too, because he didn't kill Yoda right? Don't you have to kill your opponent in order to justify a victory? Nothing changed after the duel, except for the fact that Sidious had control of the Republic and there was little Yoda could do about it, even if him and Sidious were "basically" equal!

Oh yeah and by the way, before the duel Sidious says: "I have waited a long time for this moment my little green friend..."
Don't you think that that statement is some indication that Sidious is not "screwing around anymore"; "I have waited all this time to challenge you, and now I'm going to give you everything I have!" Sidious did!!!! Yoda gave all he had as well... Sure Yoda said "Failed I have", but don't you think that after the duel Sidious was thinking to himself "Man, I had him right where I wanted him, and I was UNABLE, INCAPABLE, "I FAILED" to kill him."? In the end Sidious Failed, and Yoda Failed. I don't know what else to say, fans of Yoda can claim he won all day long; fans of Sidious can claim he won all day long, but the simple fact is that neither person defeated the other!!!!! Because last time I checked the two characters were still around all the way up until ROTJ?

-Also, at the end of the duel when the troops are looking for Yoda, and they can't find him and Sidious says: "Double your search!" Don't you think he's a little bit pissed-off because Yoda was still ALIVE? Therefore Sidious didn't win!!

 

McDiarmid said Palpatine was 500 times faster than light, if not even sound

this is CLEARLY incorrect....i saw yoda moving faster, and yoda was clearly not moving at the speed of light, let alone 500 times

i dont care what he says, as the movie CLEARLY shows he is not, that is an exaggeration

 

Man, that's a good point, jedipadawanjoe14!

 

Sidious did win. Your argument is flawed. Eliminating every single Jedi is not important as the Jedi were completely removed from Galactic power. His goal in the battle was to survive. Palpatine is a Dark Lord type, he doesn't get his hands dirty unless he absolutely has to.

It was not a fight Sidious sought, and basically if Yoda had never showed up he would have been just as victorious.

 

"Sidious did win. Your argument is flawed. Eliminating every single Jedi is not important as the Jedi were completely removed from Galactic power. His goal in the battle was to survive. Palpatine is a Dark Lord type, he doesn't get his hands dirty unless he absolutely has to.

It was not a fight Sidious sought, and basically if Yoda had never showed up he would have been just as victorious."

Come on Now! "I HAVE WAITED A LONG TIME FOR THIS MOMENT, MY LITTLE GREEN FRIEND.....AT LAST THE JEDI ARE NO MORE"...
"He doesn't get his hands dirty unless he has to". Some how, what Sidious said in the film doesn't reinforce your assertion? From the sounds of things, he wanted, and "LOOKED FOWARD" (because he physically said IT!) to "getting his hands dirty" with YODA more than anything.... When he finally got the chance to destroy Yoda, what do ya know: HE COULDN'T DO IT! He wanted to destroy ALL THE JEDI! He didn't want to just remove them from Galactic Power, NO, he wanted to kill them all!= AT LAST THE JEDI ARE NO-MORE!
-Basically what your argument's saying is that it doesn't matter whether or not you defeat your opponent or not; as long as you survive, then YOU'VE WON? How is that victorious? It's not. So if you're going to use that logic would you then say that "Dooku beat Yoda in their duel in AOTC? Or that Obi Wan and Anakin beat Dooku in AOTC simply because they survived? I think we know the answer to that.. That is exactly what the "AS LONG AS YOU SURVIVE YOU'RE VICTORIOUS" argument sounds like.... Completly counter-intuitive. It makes no logical sense at all. In the particular duel there were two competing parties, they both were "UNABLE" to defeat the other.




"WE MUST MOVE QUICKLY, THE JEDI ARE RELENTLESS".......... doesn't sound like he's "interested" in "removing them from power" to me?

 

My girlfriend thought Yoda was at least as good as Sideous, and she's not even that much of a SW fan (No I did not influence ) So I guess it does depend on your point of view.

As OBIJUAN76 said, none were victorious. Sideous hadn't won until he had killed all of the Jedi. It was not just a matter of gaining control, he wanted to exterminate the Jedi. He failed. He couldn't kill Yoda. Yoda failed, he couldn't kill Sideous. As OBIJUAN76 nothing changed after their duel - both failed. We could just as easily heard Sideous say it, although he never would.

I'm not disputing the Insider. However, I still think it's somewhat blunt. Why make them look equal and say that Yoda had no chance? You must at least agree that there is some confusion there? Yoda clearly gave Sideous a good run for his money, and they were equally strong. But, Yoda lost, Sideous lost. In the short-term Yoda suffered the greatest defeat. In the long run Sideous did... I guess it all depends...

 

Exactly. That's why I think it is important to consider statements of the people involved in the making of the movie and of the official site if one wants to gain some insight into the creator's POV.

They look equally strong to you. There are other people who don't think they look equally strong. If they were meant to be equal, why is every official source I know stating that Yoda was bested, was defeated, didn't have etc., and not even one is stating that the fight was a draw and Yoda was gaining the upper hand? Ordinarily the entries on the characters on the OS tend to be favourable to the character featured - well, the entry on Yoda states that he was bested. Even the animators, Yoda's "actors", if you will, are confirming he was defeated. Show me one single statement by an official source saying Yoda was gaining the upper hand and I'll reconsider.

On a side note, why is it that you are insisting that Lucas confirmed Mace overpowered Sidious and that's the end of the debate in the Mace vs. Sidious thread, yet in the case of Yoda vs. Sidious you are not prepared to accept OS entries and animator's statements and argue that everything is a matter of interpretation? I'm not intending to bait you, I just don't understand.

 

Ok first off, I'm a jedi fan. That said, I think I am viewing this objectively.

I think Sidious "escaped" is more accurate than he "won." Just like Anakin chased Kenobi around yoda chased Sidious around. He was on the offensive-and there's a perfectly good reason for that. The only way for the jedi to stop a complete takeover was for yoda to KILL Sidious, not to show that he was as powerful or more so-that had nothing to do with it. His mission was simply to kill sidious and in doing so to save the republic. "Failed I have" means he failed in accomplishing the task set out before him, not that he was a weaker combatant. Sidious succeeded in surviving and maintaining his power over the galaxy,that is why he "won." In no way did he overpower his opponent. He outsmarted him.

Sidious and Yoda's fighting ability and powers are shown on screen to be fairly equal. Now's when everybody says "But Sidious threw handfulls of pods"-That's true and shows he is very powerful. Imagine lifting up a big rock and heaving it downhill(like sidious)-pretty hard. Now imagine being at the bottom of the hill, catching the falling rock, and heaving it about 60 feet up(like yoda)-that's harder. During the lightning duel, sidious started out with the upper hand, then yoda got it. When they were thrown, sidious fell out of the pod and landed on the side of another pod, on a side where there was a handrail. He hung on. Yoda fell out into the middle onto the podium, which had no railing. He tried to hang on, but slipped off and fell again.

This is where it gets interesting. Anakin was brash and stupid to charge uphill at his opponent head-on. Yoda realizes here that if chasing sidious up 3 levels of pods is hard, chasing him up 20 would be nearly impossible. Also, Mas Amedda
was present when yoda walked into sidious' office but was gone when he got up.-He would obviously be getting guards to come help. So here's where Yoda makes his choice- die attacking to the end right there, or retreat and make a new plan of attack. He chose wisely- Luke could not have completed his training if yoda got a face-full of pod charging 500 feet uphill.
Sidious at this point knew he was relatively safe if he stayed up there. High above, he had a huge adavantage. If he was really way stronger, however, he would have charged downhill to attack and finish the fight.

 

On a side note, why is it that you are insisting that Lucas confirmed Mace overpowered Sidious and that's the end of the debate in the Mace vs. Sidious thread, yet in the case of Yoda vs. Sidious you are not prepared to accept OS entries and animator's statements and argue that everything is a matter of interpretation? I'm not intending to bait you, I just don't understand.

Simply because it concurrs very much with what we see onscreen. This is just personal reference, or preference, but the duel showed to me that Mace just got the better of Sideous in that duel. My same preference (? ) says that Yoda countered every attack Sideous launched. I'm not saying tossing 100 pods isn't impressive, but as I said somewhere else, try throwing a 50kg stone, then try catching the same stone and toss it upwards instead of downwards. Yoda was having a more difficult time because of the terrain and still he was able to counter every attack that Sideous came up with. He even blocked the lightning, and you must agree that by the look of their faces Yoda is gaining the upper hand? I just don't see the reason in making that scene so explicit and then say that Yoda never had a chance... then he never had a chance because it wasn't his destiny, because that scene shows that Yoda is as strong as Sideous. Or do you prefer otherwise?

If every source say that Yoda was overmatched, then I simply question the whole setup of the duel... I also don't see how Mace should be able to defeat Sideous, and Yoda - the more powerful - never being able to have a chance!?? where is the logic?

 

OK some guy said that yoda couldnt you lightning.... Well isn't lightning an evil, sith weapon? and to use that would be so un-jedi-like? think of this. what if yoda had been a sith? with his 800+ year knowledge of the force. how powerful, with all his hate, anger, lust, would his sith powers be? Yoda would be THE weapon of mass destruction.

 

I think the only reason why Yoda lost was because of the enviroment they were in, If there were no pods then I think Yoda could have had a chance at winning!

 

During the lightning duel, sidious started out with the upper hand, then yoda got it. When they were thrown, sidious fell out of the pod and landed on the side of another pod, on a side where there was a handrail. He hung on. Yoda fell out into the middle onto the podium, which had no railing. He tried to hang on, but slipped off and fell again.


I agree!! That analysis of the duel is totally congruent with what was seen on screen. I also very much agree with your assertion that if Sids was "stronger, then why didn't he charge downhill to attack and finish the fight?" Because he wasn't confident in his CAPABILITY to conquer Yoda. Does that mean that Sidious was victorious? Yes. (In his ability to survive.) But he was NOT victorious in his ability to DESTORY Yoda. That definition of victory was never reached!!!!! Simply because he survived doesn't mean that he "WON"!

"Sidious succeeded in surviving and maintaining his power over the galaxy,that is why he "won." In no way did he overpower his opponent". Yes, Yes!!! I think that a lot of people mistake the two conditions. Sidious "won" in his ability to "survive". He failed however, in his attempt to overpower and "KILL" Yoda. Unfortunatly, viewers argue that since he survived Yoda's assault somehow that means that he was victorious, because the all-powerful Yoda couldn't get the job done. Well I have a response: SIDS COULDN'T GET THE JOB DONE EITHER! So how then could someone say that either Yoda or Sids won, BECAUSE NEITHER OF THEM DID....

 

There's no proof that Yoda is more powerful than Mace. I'm not saying Mace is more powerful; I think they're equal. I understand why some say yoda is stronger or mace is stronger. Yoda's stronger because he just has to be the greatest jedi ever!!!!! Mace because he beat Sidious fair and square, when Yoda did not. I think its ignorant to just default Yoda to the top. Once again, I'm not saying he's not #1(tied for jedi in my opinion), but I am questioning, what has he done to earn this rank? In everything, I've read Mace is on par, meaning equal with Yoda. I've also heard that Mace is a better duelist, and Yoda is better with the force. Maybe it's time to stop overating Yoda, as the the greatest thing in the universe. Maybe it's also time to give Mace more credit. Sidious played them both, Mace mentally, and Yoda physically. Mace and Yoda are overall equal as far as jedis go.

 

This is how I read the fight: Yoda could have been killed in the first two minutes when he was first knocked out in the chancellor's office, if Darth Loquacious had finished the job instead of gloating and engaging in trash talk. This gave Yoda the chance to throw him over the desk - first hilarious scene, showing Sidious getting himself into trouble because of loquaciousness.

We then see Sidious trying to leave for whatever reason and we have an inconclusive lightsaber fight of which only a part is shown on screen. We then see that Yoda and Sidious are no longer on the same pod - again, for whatever reason. Was he pushed of, did he leave voluntarily - I have no idea. We see Sidious throwing a series of pods at Yoda and Yoda being occupied in escaping them. And then we see Sidious pausing, again taking the time for gloating and laughing instead of finishing the job. This gave Yoda the chance to throw that one pod back. And we see a startled Sidious who almost seems to forget that he should better get out of the way. Second hilarious scene, showing Sidious getting himself into trouble because of gloating.

I think this fight shows one major weakness of Sidious - his inclination to loquaciousness, doing trash talk and gloating at the most untimely hours. Same as in ROTJ, where twice he made Luke realize what he was about to do by talking and laughing, in ROTS twice he gets himself into trouble because of not keeping his mouth shut and taking his time instead of getting the job done.

On the lightning scene - first we see Yoda losing his saber and nearly getting knocked of the pod due to the attack. Then we see him deflecting the lightning back. This is the only time Yoda landed a good punch without Sidious getting himself into trouble because of talking or laughing. I guess Lucas didn't want Yoda to go out like a punk. The faces - Yoda's face: "I'm not going to go out like a punk against you!" - Sidious' face: Strongly remininscent of someone slipping on a banana peel and losing balance during a pie fight. Actually I find the whole scene somehow reminiscent of a pie fight. Very entertaining. But I don't think that one good punch makes the fight a draw and I definitely don't see Yoda getting the upper hand.

Please don't ask me about the logic of the Mace defeating Sidious issue - I've said from the minute the commentary leaked out that this doesn't make sense to me and for the time being I've given up trying to make sense of this scene.

You know that's just why I find these duel discussions so futile. Your statement shows that this is about your personal preference, and not about what is intended by Lucas and what makes sense in terms of the story. And you would rather dispute every statement by official sources and question the setu