**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

Mace because he beat Sidious fair and square, when Yoda did not.



Yoda lost because of the enviroment he was in, It had too many pods, And Mace was fighting on a flat ground, Thet gave him the advantage.

 

Yoda lost because of the enviroment he was in, It had too many pods, And Mace was fighting on a flat ground, Thet gave him the advantage.

This is actually quite true. If OBW's "high ground" bears any truth, then Yoda really did a valient job.

As for Yoda could've been killed the first minutes - well seconds actually - that was because of his "arrogance" if you wish. He should have been prepared for what was coming, as should Sideous have been prepared for what was coming.

I'm not questioning the insider per se, I'm questioning how they can say it so bluntly. Why could Mace defeat him when Yoda had no chance? Lucas clearly has said that he could, and even that he did. Mace is described to be on par with the venerable Yoda - in my mind it sounds that he's ALMOST up there. Anakin refers to Mace as the powerful duelist, OBW refers to Yoda.

It's the statements that seems blunt to me. To say that Yoda was totally outmatched as it sounds is ludicrous. The duel shows them as being quite equal. Also, I wouldn't say that every time Yoda got a punch in was when Sideous was gloating. Yoda wasn't trying to stop the pods before one almost hit him. And, don't you agree that it's more impressive to stop one mid-air and throw it upwards than to throw them downwards? Quality over quantity perhaps...

As for your reference to their force duel as a pie contest? Not to be baiting or anything, but where did you get that allusion?

As to the final answer: if every source, including Lucas, says that Yoda legitemely lost, then he did. I'm just questioning why he made the scene the way he did then... Especially the force duel, where Yoda WAS gaining the upper hand...

 

I don't know enough about the Force vs. gravity issues to answer that question. But we've also seen Sidious tearing like four pods at a time out of the mounting and lifting them upwards above his head. I can't assess what feat is more impressive. This seems to me yet another version of the neverending "who is more powerful" debates and frankly, I'm really not too interested into this.

I can't really answer that, but somehow that image, as well as the banana peel, just intrudes every time I watch that scene - if you rewatch it with the comparison in mind, maybe you'll get the idea, it's quite comical Sorry, but for me this is about a movie fight, not about some worldshaking contest of ideologies. First and foremost I find that fight really cool and really funny, I just can't take the whole thing that seriously.

 

So, official Lucasarts sources say that Yoda lost, Yoda himself says "I failed", Emperor Palpatine remains ruler of the Galaxy and Yoda runs off to eat Ramen noodles on Dagobah, and we are still debating who won?

Who wins a battle should most rightly be judged by what its effect on the strategic situation is.

Its effects were entirely negative on Yoda. Sidious, who simply needed to avoid defeat and retain power (killing Yoda was never a part of his plan nor was it necessary. He had destroyed the Jedi Order itself, broken their power, and reduced them to impotence. He realized that some of them would survive, but even in the EU he states that they are irrelevant because they cannot harm either Vader or himself).

So, I don't see how it could be argued any further. Yoda might have been gaining an upper hand at the last moment of the duel, but the duel had gone back and forth, and Sidious presumably would have gained the upper hand again. Yoda had no saber, so, all Sidious had to do was stop shooting lightning, and Yoda would have had no means to harm him. What was Yoda gonna do? Start Bitchslapping him?

 

I don't understand. The lightning scene is the climax of the duel. Why would Lucas allow the facial expressions to be placed on the two characters (confidence and a pissed off look on Yoda's face vs. pain and apprehension on Sidious' face), if not to show that Yoda was in fact gaining the upper hand? Once again, that just seems counter-intuitive to what was seen on screen. Why would Lucas insert those facial expressions if he weren't implicitly stating that "SIDIOUS WAS LUCKY THAT THE DUEL ENDED THERE, IF IT HAD CONTINUED ONE WOULD INTUITIVELY BE LEAD TO BELIEVE THAT THE DUEL WOULD EVOLVE INTO A VICTORY FOR YODA"?

This is exactly what I was aiming at. What was the purpose? And moreover, what was the purpose in showing Mace besting Sideous, then saying Yoda can't - he even lost before he began. Then it must be his destiny. Because if Mace can, then Yoda can!!

As for the pie-fight, perhaps I'll have to try that. Haven't seen star-wars in a long time now. Awful stuff

As for Yoda bitchslapping Sideous: that surely would be something to see But seriously, I think Yoda showed himself quite capable without a saber. I think Sideous and Yoda are in a league of their own in that respect!

 

I still don't understand how the point can be made that all Sidious has to do is "surviv"? That doesn't make any logical sense at all. Why would destroy the "majority" of the Jedi? Like I've said before: in order for the Jedi to exercise "complete" domination over the galaxy ALL OF THE SITH MUST BE DESTROYED! That never happened. Likewise, in the case of Sidious, IN ORDER FOR HIM TO EXERCISE COMPLETE DOMINATION OVER THE GALAXY HE MUST DESTROY ALL THE JEDI! Especially Yoda!!! When he failed to kill Yoda, that meant that there would always be the lingering danger of him popping up again, or (like the Sith in the Old Rep, train an apprentice) getting someone else to rise up instead of him: LUKE! That is how Sidious lost in the greater context of the duel: his inability to crush Yoda; he did not. I don't understand this argument that states "that just because he survived his encounter with Yoda, therefore that makes him victorious----it most definitely does not!

once again: "I HAVE WAITED A LONG TIME FOR THIS MOMENT---MY LITTLE GREEN FRIEND"......
he wasn't by any means interested (as Sidious himself said) in surviving Yoda. No. He wanted to kill him and failed! Yoda wanted to do the same thing and failed. Therefore in any competitive environment that would produce a DRAW.....

 

Well, the fact that there are no Jedi alive after the Jedi Purge, who served under the Republic that posed a threat to him undermines your assertion. The Jedi were beaten and marginalized. The entire Sith plan was to get revenge on the Jedi.

A 1000 years before ROTS, the Sith had run the galaxy, then they had been wiped out (ALMOST entirely) by the Jedi. Destroying the Jedi's power and then wiping almost all of them out, while regaining the power they had once held was enough.

I have never interpreted that scene as you do. His "I have waited a long time" seems very personal.

I would say what he is saying is "I have waited a long time to reveal my master plan and rub it in your face you arrogant beeyotch." Thats been my interpretation, not that he has waited a long time to kill him.

As the Dark Lord type, Sidious would not view fighting and killing Jedi PERSONALLY as very efficient, which is why he didn't go to the temple himself.

OR he has waited a long time for the moment when the Sith regain power in the Galaxy and the Jedi are helpless, just as Yoda is now "helpless" before him. Those are much more likely.

His plan would never have been "Okay, I am gonna fight Yoda myself." That isn't the way Sidious (or Sauron, or any of those types) thinks. He simply wanted Yoda dead.

 

Quoted:
"Well, the fact that there are no Jedi alive after the Jedi Purge, who served under the Republic that posed a threat to him undermines your assertion. The Jedi were beaten and marginalized. The entire Sith plan was to get revenge on the Jedi.

A 1000 years before ROTS, the Sith had run the galaxy, then they had been wiped out (ALMOST entirely) by the Jedi. Destroying the Jedi's power and then wiping almost all of them out, while regaining the power they had once held was enough."

Okay, Emperor_Billy_Bob, I understand your logic, I really do. Your overall premise (in my mind) states that Sidious "beat" Yoda in his ability to currupt the Republic and confuse the Jedi. In that sense yes, he did conquer the Jedi, and Yoda for that matter. In terms of the short, near-sighted future he did have "victory" over the Jedi. I wouldn't argue with that. But, my logic in terms of the Yoda/Sidious duel has always been predicated on what Sidious said to Anakin: "ONCE MORE THE SITH WILL RULE THE GALAXY"; then he told him about Order 66 and how that was designed to purge ALL of the Jedi. I don't know how much closer to the point Sidious could have gotten (that he wanted all the Jedi dead), other than saying "I WANT HIM DEAD, I WANT HIS FAMILY DEAD, I WANT HIS HOUSE BURNED TO THE GROUND" -Robert de Niro, The Untouchables

In my mind he wanted all the Jedi gone. Exterminated. Wiped away from the galaxy. Not just marginalized. He wanted to kill them all! No he didn't want to "marginalize" them because that would contradict his statement "AT LAST THE JEDI ARE NO MORE". Going foward with that premise, I believe that Sidious (and Yoda too) failed in the duel. Because if Sids truly would have "beaten" (killed) Yoda in the duel, then Return of the Jedi never would have happened. Luke never would have learned about the Force except from Obi Won (who was gone after ANH). Listen, I view the duel in a much broader context. That is why I can't say that Sidious beat Yoda, because in my mind, NOTHING CHANGED, except that Sidious became Emperor of the Galaxy and the Jedi were forced into exile. But in my opinion being forced into exile does not quite mean that you have been beaten. I would classify "beaten" as "YODA AND OBI WON DEAD"! Listen, I apply this logic to before the Jedi Purges too. The Jedi had never truly "beaten" the Sith, because there was always one out there. Therefore, when the Jedi are purged and Yoda, and Obi Won remain, the Sith still haven't beaten them! But before the Jedi could go into exile, Yoda had to face the wrath of Sidious, and Sids had his chance and couldn't finish the job! That is why he didn't win! Even if he was able to "survive".

Sure Sidious won the battle against the Jedi in ROTS, but he didn't win the battle against Yoda BECAUSE HE HAD THE OPPURTUNITY TO KILL HIM AND END THE JEDI ONCE AND FOR ALL, AND HE COULDN'T DO IT!!!!!! Like it or not Yoda too survived, and that MEANS THAT SIDIOUS TOO FAILED IN THE DUEL. Simply because he (Sids) was able to continue his reign doesn't mean that he won. No. He survived. And when someone survives that means that they haven't won "or" Lost. It simply means that nothing was produced from the duel. In the final analysis: I don't think Yoda won. And I don't think that Sidious won either.

 

It was the animators that placed those facial expressions - the same animators that stated that Yoda was beaten. And I con't see "confidence" on Yoda's face, I'd rather call it some kind of defiance, and I don't see "pain and apprehension" on Sidious face either - what I see is someone who's losing balance and reacting accordingly, the "banana peel" shot. I don't think it would be a good idea for a mythology to make the point that the Republic fell and a dictatorship was established because of Yoda's bad luck? Considering the animator's statements, maybe you're reading the facial expressions wrong. It's just a funny scene showing Yoda getting a good punch by backfiring his own medicine onto him.

 

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"It was the animators that placed those facial expressions - the same animators that stated that Yoda was beaten. And I con't see "confidence" on Yoda's face, I'd rather call it some kind of defiance, and I don't see "pain and apprehension" on Sidious face either - what I see is someone who's losing balance and reacting accordingly, the "banana peel" shot. I don't think it would be a good idea for a mythology to make the point that the Republic fell and a dictatorship was established because of Yoda's bad luck? Considering the animator's statements, maybe you're reading the facial expressions wrong. It's just a funny scene showing Yoda getting a good punch by backfiring his own medicine onto him."

I don't know... If that isn't a pissed-off, confident face then I don't know what is? Well I don't know what to tell ya if you don't see pain on Sidious' face. He's yelling for cryin out loud! Last time I checked you don't scream out in pain for no reason! In my mind, this part of the duel clearly shows Yoda's gaining the upper hand.

 

Well, my perception of that scene is quite different from yours. I see defiance on the face of Yoda, and I think Sidious yelling with shock because he's losing balance. And I simply don't buy the idea that the Republic fell because of Yoda's bad luck. I think that would render the story a joke. That's all I can say.

 

I think now that Sidious' lightning did prevail after all in the climax of the duel. For a long time in previous posts I thought Sidious' lightning blew up in his face. But after studying the explosion some more I think I've been wrong.

Yes Yoda increases the power of his force shield and using it to force Sidious' lightning back upon himself. Yes Sidious suddenly looks surprised because he thought he had Yoda. Yes Sidious starts to moan with his mouth in a gaping yawn. Yes Sidious starts to rear up and lean back. But while he's doing all this he still continues to fire his lightning. Sidious like Yoda is increasing his power to match and to surpass what Yoda is doing.Sidious' whole stance is one of exertion hence the moaning.Yes it hurts him but he's not letting Yoda get away with reflecting his power back on him. He's hanging in there and fighting back. Fighting like hell.

The explosion occurs because Sidious succeeds in blowing away Yodas force shield along with Yoda. The reason Sidious falls back is because he summoned up so much power that he blew himself away too.

My conclusion. It's not a draw. Sidious is the winner.If he wasn't the arch villain the way Sidious persevered against Yoda would seem downright heroic.

 

Thats really interesting scene interpretation. I have seen it that way in some viewings and on others not. I will rewatch it soon and see what I think.

 

It does seem like Sidious is sort of upping the ante. After watching the scene again, it seems like Sidious moaning is more of a "Good God, I can't hold this for long!" rather than "I am getting my ass beat."

 

Well I guess it all boils down to one's own interpretation. But in my mind, when Yoda compsoses himself, and returns the lightning I would say that actually Yoda "perservered against Sids" because he was able to marginalize and deflect Sids own weapon back upon him. To me that stands out as victory in itself... I don't understand how someone could argue that Sidious (or even Yoda for that matter won) based on him moaning and Yoda seriously resolute. That just doesn't make sense. My interpretation was that "Lucas" choose those events and facial expressions to be placed because he wanted to show that Yoda was "slightly" more powerful than Sids because he was able to deflect, and "painfully" inflict Sidious with his own Lightning. That was my take on the scene...

 

That's how I felt as well. When Yoda clearly struggles at first, them composes himself, gets an expression of control and resolution. When this is shown, and it is shown that Sideous is struggling right after Yoda regaining control, my conclusion is that Sideous couldn't withstand it. Yes, Yoda lost, but he showed us that he is at least as powerful as Sideous. It was not his destiny to defeat him, and the force was out of balance... That's how I read it

 

Emperor_Billy_Bobposted

It does seem like Sidious is sort of upping the ante. After watching the scene again, it seems like Sidious moaning is more of a "Good God, I can't hold this for long!" rather than "I am getting my ass beat."

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Well yeah exactly. Sidious isn't allowing himself to be a pushover when he realizes that defeating Yoda will take a bit more power than he thought.I think Sidious rises to the challenge.

It all happens so fast but studying it in slow motion Sidious after his admittedly comical look of surprise appears to summon up herculean power to get through Yoda's defense. Leaning back,eyes shut, mouth gaping wide Sidious' power seems to go wild getting brighter and brighter as it hits the center of Yoda's force block shield. A monumental act of painful exertion that finally succeeds in blasting Yoda's defense asunder and blowing Yoda away towards defeat.Not to mention knocking himself head over heels from the effort.

But I hasten to add I'm not trying to change anyone elses mind who feels differently.[face_grin]

 

Good post darthvaderv.

I agree totally!!!

 

DarthVaderv posted

This is the way I see it. On any given day there's not much between these two. They are at the top of their game and they represent the heads of the Jedi and Sith, so there should be nothing in it. IMO Yoda would of just won if circumstance prevailed.

LOOK at the force lightning struggle. Look at where Yoda is. On the EDGE of the pod. Look at where Sidious is, Deep inside the pod. Look at Yoda's weight and size compared to Palps. Additionally as the struggle commences Yoda has been given obvious facial expressions to say one thing to the audience. Determination. It's there for a reason. Look back at Sidious face, it's all there displayed a few posts above.

I have studied the duel to a point now where I just want to enjoy it, if that makes sense? I conclude one thing. As the lightning explodes, Sidious has a clear advantage simply because of his position in the pod. Yoda's circumstance would be different and he would of bested Sidious if he was inside the pod. It's that close of a duel anything could of happened. looking at the saber locks and the rest of the duel Yoda held the advantage in my eyes. However as a character Sidious is one of my favourite's and i'm just trying to be realistic.

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"Come boy.See for yourself. From here you will see that I Darth Sidious overwhelmed and defeated Master Yoda,and the end of this insignifigant debate."[face_mischief]

I agree with you DarthVaderv about wanting to enjoy the film. I can relax and enjoy the film now too knowing that Sidious not Yoda gains he upper hand in the force lightning duel even after Yoda's look of determination. Yoda looks determined because he's confident that Sidious won't be able to get through his renewed force shield.Sidious looks surprised because he perhaps fancies he's not going to get thru to Yoda like he wants. But then Sidious not giving up, really flexes some extra Dark-Side-of-the-Force muscle and succeeds in blowing away Yoda's defense and sending him off in a weakened,defeated, state.

The only one strong enough to defeat Sidious was Darth Vader.

But like I said I respect other people opinions.I've carefully read alot of them.If people think Yoda really won and just lost because he slipped or that the duel it was a draw well thats fine too.I used to think it was a draw myself.

 

I try to consider the dramatic integrity of the scene. What do any of you think the filmmakers were trying to convey? I mean really- Yoda falls several flights down, the epic music stops, and he looks up dismayed as his cloak gets hung up on some wreckage. The end result of the duel, in Yoda's own words, was not a success for the forces of good.

I use the same argument for a lot of other discussions, ie: Mace vs. Sidious, the Jedi Massacre etc... Basically arguments regarding whether or not said character did infact die/lose or not. Believe what you will, I like the drama and emotion of these scenes for what they are. I have always taken Star Wars at face value, which tends to work tremendously. Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.

 

IMO,its been quite easy to see that yoda and sidious are equal.If you pay attention to the fight neither sidious or yoda trump the other.


ex. both of them(force push,force lighting) eachother across the room.then they start to fight eachother with their lightsabers and neither of them gain the advantage.the fight then moves on to the poidum and neither gains the advantage.it then turns into a force dual, sidious then levitates three senate pods above his head againest the pull of gravity without breaking a sweet.yoda catchs a senate pod and sends it back againest the pull of gravity with some strugale, both abilites equal eacthohter out. then in their last clash of power they both push so hard that they both are flung off the pod.so they are both egual in power and lightsaber combat.

 

I dont understand how anyone can concievably see Sidious as the overwhelming winner. Yoda fought just as well and match Sidious stride for stride. Id like to challenge someone to tell me where it was exactly that Sidious had Yoda defeated in the Duel ...

Look at it this way:

Confrontation: Yoda struts into Sidious most private office and confronts him about his new apprentice. Sidious uses Sith Lightning to send Yoda flying. While he is busy being a pompus ars, Yoda gets up and throws Sidious head over heels right over his desk. Its clear the first impression and confrontation was a draw. Sidious 1, Yoda 1

Lightsaber Duel: Pretty even again. Neither seemed like they were ready to collapse or anything, but based on some of Sidious' facial expressions, he did look a little worried. It seems Yoda had the upper hand in lightsaber clashes. The "little green friend definately held his own in this aspect. It is far too close to call any clear winner on this. Sidious 2, Yoda 2

Toss the Pods: Sidious strayed away from close up combat, and instead threw pod after pod at Yoda. In all due respect, Yoda showed some amazing acrobatic moves for a creature of over 800 years old. Sidious showed he was capable of extreme attacks, but Yoda showed he was just as capable of amazing defensive maneuvers. Sidious 3, Yoda 3

Force: While in the Pod, Yoda pulls out his sabre, and Sidious blast him with a powerful Sith Lightning. Yoda blocks it, and a force buildup ensues. The power becomes too tremendous, and both masters are flug. Yoda happens to go further because he weighs less, and he was standing on the outer edge of the pod. Both masters showed equal skills of the force. Sidious 4, Yoda 4

Sidious won in his objective to stay alive. Yoda had to kill Sidious. Neither was capable of killing the other. Sidious wanted Yoda dead because he swore to destroy the Jedi. He too, failed in that respect. So, I see Sidious and Yoda as being exact equals.

 

Really? I thought that Yoda had sent those 3 pods back and what Sidious did was keep his grip on them and throw them down at Yoda because when Yoda is standing on the 1 pod with his saber on, he does the standard Obi-Wan type saber twirl and moves his other hand upwards. I thought that was Yoda sending 3 back but with Sidious then being strong enough to hold onto them and throw them down at Yoda.