**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

Some posters have stated that Yoda neutralized Sidious' lightning. Yoda definitely neutralized Count Dooku's lightning in AOTC like it was nothing [as well as fighting Dooku to a draw and had energy to spare to save Obi-Wan and Anakin from the falling metal column]. See? I'm giving Yoda some credit.

But in ROTS Yoda is unable to absorb and neutralize Sidious' lightning. The best that Yoda can do is put up a force block. A defense that quickly starts to crumble judging from the intensity and brightness of the lightning and the way Yoda winces and then bares his teeth in pain.

But then Yoda rebounds and doubles his power.Combines his two seperate force blocks into one. [It's not a ball of energy folks] Altho Sidious looks surprised and he keeps firing away and ultimately plows through Yoda's defense.

If Yoda had neutralized Sidious' lightning it would've faded and died out just like Dooku's lightning did. There would'nt have been any explosion.

George Lucas said the Dark Side is stronger. Sidious draws from and channels the Dark Side so the Dark Side gave Sidious the power he needed to get through Yoda's final defense no matter how strong it was.So much power that Sidious, who really [unfortunately] isn't that tall himself, is blown away.Yoda didn't cause the explosion. Sidious did.

I think that Yoda was so drained of his energies after the explosion and his fall that Sidious could no longer sense him via the Force and took him for dead. Sidious could sense Anakin on Mustafar but not Yoda.

 

He only senses Anakin because he's his apprentice. Why doesnt he sense Yoda or Obi-Wan if thats the logic? The duel between the two masters is only a loss for Yoda in that he could not kill Sidious. Other than that its a complete stalemate. Theres a ton of speculation on the force lightning scene so heres mine - its Yoda that causes the explosion. The dark side is easier and accessible - when the amount of energy that Sidious meets Yodas spirituality it can do nothing but explode between them. Dooku simply didnt have the power to illicit that in his duel with Yoda.

 

If it was just a block then why couldnt Sidious just keep on throwing in the lightning. I could understand why would have caused the explosion IF Yoda was attempting to push it back at him. But according to you, Yoda was merely creating a force shield. A force shield is like a wall, so why would Sidious have to tilt his head back and yell if he was merely sending lightning towards a shield?

Then it is also a loss for Sidious. Yoda said before the duel "Destroy the Sith we must". Sidious also saids before the duel "If the Jedi are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end." Meaning that he also had to kill Yoda..which he didn't.

 

severian28 posted

If it was just a block then why couldnt Sidious just keep on throwing in the lightning. I could understand why would have caused the explosion IF Yoda was attempting to push it back at him. But according to you, Yoda was merely creating a force shield. A force shield is like a wall, so why would Sidious have to tilt his head back and yell if he was merely sending lightning towards a shield?

---

Well I just said force shield for simplistic reasons.I don't know what it is. Whatever is going on I think Sidious IS continuing to throw in the lightning however. It's not arcing back and hitting him like it did when Mace Windu deflected it.

Watching it in slo-mo, the area where Yoda is holding up his two hands gets brighter and brighter as Sidious continually fires his lightning until [b]KA-BLAMM!!![/b].
I strongly feel that explosion that Sidious caused [because it's entirely coming from his side not Yoda's] indicates that Sidious' Dark Side of The Force power prevailed over Yoda's.

I think Sidious is tilting his head back and yelling because he's having to summon up greater power. He's also rearing up his entire body in a stance of hurculean effort. As he does all this it really looks like his lightning is going wild.

 

severian28 posted:

Yet he didnt have to do that when he shot the lighning at Mace.

I mean I dont understand why he would have to do that if it was a block. I would understand however, if Yoda was pushing the lightning back at him, but Sidious just continues to throw lightning at Yoda, as he tried to send it back.

When he tilted his head back and gave that moan, obviously he couldnt take continously sending lightning at Yoda because the jedi master was sending it back at him. THe result? Instead of sending it back like he did with Dookus lightning.. it was to much so he just released it causign teh explosion. It was to much energy to send back and to much energy to absorb. So he released it.

Compare below.....

[image=http://www.starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/yoda/aotc_yoda29.jpg] [image=http://www.canmag.com/images/front/starwars/nrots7.jpg]

They are exactly the same, it's just that Sidious's lightning is much more powerful than Dooku's.
[/quote]

 

Yet he didnt have to do that when he shot the lighning at Mace.

I mean I dont understand why he would have to do that if it was a block. I would understand however, if Yoda was pushing the lightning back at him, but Sidious just continues to throw lightning at Yoda, as he tried to send it back.

When he tilted his head back and gave that moan, obviously he couldnt take continously sending lightning at Yoda because the jedi master was sending it back at him. THe result? Instead of sending it back like he did with Dookus lightning.. it was to much so he just released it causign teh explosion. It was to much energy to send back and to much energy to absorb. So he released it.

Compare below.....

[image=http://www.starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/yoda/aotc_yoda29.jpg] [image=http://www.canmag.com/images/front/starwars/nrots7.



They are exactly the same, it's just that Sidious's lightning is much more powerful than Dooku's.

---

Sorry about the blank post there. I was editing something I wrote and the whole thing fell through.[face_clown]

Your explanation of whats occuring is very interesting makes sense too. "Too much to send back and too much to absorb." means that Sidious had Yoda between a rock and a hard place. The two are deadlocked right? I've seen similar deadlocks of power and subsequent explosions in various Japanese monster films.So I think your probably right.
But it does appear that Sidious ultimately was stronger and pushed back from his side harder than Yoda.

The way Sidious moans and the way his energy appears to get out of his control and become wilder reminds me alot of what happened in [b]ROTJ[/b] when Vader lifted Sidious,carried,and threw him down the reactor shaft.Sidious going off like a small super nova. A massive escape of power that he could no longer contain. He does seem like he's going to explode in [b]ROTS[/b]. [But if he did the place would've been ground zero.]The explosion that concludes the Yoda/Sidious fight is what really wastes Yoda. And Sidious too to a lesser extent.

 

i always just thought of it as kinda like the big bang


i mean, a little tiny area can only be so dense


with all that super powerful lightning pouring into that tiny ball, it just eventualy become too much and just went BANG

 

ticopumanot severian 28 posted

But what that we see onscrean, makes you think that Sidious was pushing harder. True, that in ROTJ Sidious cant control the power of his lightning but yet he doesnt give out that gasp. In ROTJ, Sidious puts that determined look that Yoda put. Which is what leads me to believe that Yoda was sending back the lightning at Sidious, not o the extend that he send Dooku's back but still sending it back. Sidious was trying to continue the lightning but was in pain because Yoda was sending it back to him. But like I said before, not to the extend that he sent Dooku's lightning.

---

Apologies ticopuma for calling you severian28 in those other posts. Apologies to severian28 as well. Gotta pay closer attention. I'll never be that good with these message boards.[face_clown]

I think Yoda may be attempting to push the lightning back like he did successfully with Count Dooku. He's doing something thats giving Sidious a hard time.But I don't see the lightning arcing back on Sidious nor do I see the lighting reversing itself and going back into Sidious' hands. What I do see is Sidious' lightning seeming to be getting out of control with Sidious leaning back and yelling looking like he's getting ready to explode ala [b]ROTJ[/b]. The lightning furiously burning the area where Yoda is blocking judging from how white hot it's beginning to look....

And then Yoda gets blasted away by the explosion Sidious caused.

That tells me right there that Sidious was pushing harder.And that Sidious won. He possibly came close to blowing himself up but he won. To repeat something I said before no matter how strong Yoda's defense was the Dark Side gave Sidious the power to plow through it.

 

No Problem.

True it wasn't arching back but it was being pushed back. AOk let me give an example. In Harry Potter and the goblet of Fire, at the end of the movie, Voldermort sends that spell at Harry and Harry sends a spell back. They are struggling between the two spells. Then at the end, when Harry sends the spell father, Voldermort begins screaming.

Same thing here. Yoda is sending it back at Sidious, but Sidious was determined to not quit so he didnt stop the lightning. But when Yoda got that determined look on his face, be began to send it back even farther, hence why Sidious was screaming. So Sidious stopped the lightning, the pain becoming to much to handle, causing the explosion.

 

ticopuma posted

No Problem.

True it wasn't arching back but it was being pushed back. AOk let me give an example. In Harry Potter and the goblet of Fire, at the end of the movie, Voldermort sends that spell at Harry and Harry sends a spell back. They are struggling between the two spells. Then at the end, when Harry sends the spell father, Voldermort begins screaming.

Same thing here. Yoda is sending it back at Sidious, but Sidious was determined to not quit so he didnt stop the lightning. But when Yoda got that determined look on his face, be began to send it back even farther, hence why Sidious was screaming. So Sidious stopped the lightning, the pain becoming to much to handle, causing the explosion.

---

I haven't caught up with the Harry Potter films yet. But I have seen alot of Japanese monster films so I kind of know what you mean.Deadlocks,contests of whose energy is the stronger are a regular staple in those films.Very old hat. But always loads of fun.

So your saying Sidious was in esscence fighting his own power? Yoda was pushing it back and Sidious was stopping the lightning that Yoda was pushing back with some more lightning causing the explosion? That makes sense.

I'm not saying your wrong I just don't see any reversal or push of lightning towards Sidious. I just see Yoda holding his hands up under a constant barrage of lightning doing his best to keep the lightning from getting through and blasting him again.

I like the other theory too you wrote earlier where you said Yoda couldn't absorb the lightning nor throw it back.And released it.
It does look like The best Yoda could do was push the lightning away from himself a tiny distance into that "ball" as other posters have said.

He can't really match Sidious' power so he sets Sidious up to destroy himself by tricking him into continually firing into that "ball" until it explodes. Sidious is so hungry to kill Yoda he doesn't notice until it's too late. Then he appears to suffer a backlash of his own increasing out-of=control power before Yoda gets blasted away.


Both things you state are possible.

 

Well we don't see either pushing back, because all we see is at first Yoda closing his eyes and looking away. The light coming from the lightning is to much. Then when he begins to grind his teeth, Sidious gives that "Argh" increasing his lightning. Then Yoda gets pissed, gets that determined look, and we hear Sidious screaming.

Its obvious that at first, Sidious was in the lead, pushing the lightning farther than Yoda, causing Yoda to grind his teeth. Then, when he gets that "No more Mr. Nice Jedi Master" he is determinded to win, and increases his power sending it back at Sidious. But since Sidious was set out to destroy Yoda, just as Yoda was set out to destroy Sidious, the Emperor doesnt stop the lightning, even though Yoda is sending it back to him. When the pain becomes to unbearable to handle, Sidious stops the lightning. Causing the explosion.

Now its not really that Yoda can't match Sidious's power, because we have seen him match and even surpass his power at least once. It's just that if Yoda was to absorb the lightning, it would leave him open to attack. Since Sidious stopped throwing the lightning, and Yoda sends it back as he did with Dooku, they were at such a close distance that it would harm them both. So Yoda just lets the energy go. Causing the explosion.

 

ticopuma posted

When the pain becomes too unbearable Sidious stops the lightning causing the explosion.

---

We'll have to agree to disagree.I don't ever see Sidious stop firing his lightning. He fires it until he causes the explosion. Don't know what more I can say.

[b]ticopuma posted[/b]

Now its not really that Yoda can't match Sidious's power, because we have seen him match and even surpass his power at least once. It's just that if Yoda was to absorb the lightning, it would leave him open to attack. Since Sidious stopped throwing the lightning, and Yoda sends it back as he did with Dooku, they were at such a close distance that it would harm them both. So Yoda just lets the energy go. Causing the
explosion.

[hr]


Sorry can't agree with you here either.
I don't think Yoda was remotely capable of absorbing Sidious' lightning. Dooku's yes. Sidious? No. I think thats clearly shown.

 

He doesnt stop the lightning you say? I highly suggest you watch that that scene again, in slow motion. In a way you are correct, by stopping the lightning, he caused the explosion. And I dont see your reasoning as to why Yoda wouldnt be able to absorb his lightning. It's not as much as how powerful (With Dooku it was one quick burst) but how much. Sidious kept throwing it at him, Yoda got pissed, pushed back the lightning, pain became to much to handle, Sidioud let go of the lightning, causing the explosion.

 

I have to agree with ticopuma and his synopsis of the duel. When watching the duel, I felt the message that Yoda gained the upper hand in the Force duel was clearly portrayed. When Sids throws his first volt of lightning at Yoda, it appears as if Yoda has had his kicks. However, Yoda clearly composes himself and returns the lighting back upon him. Why else would Sids back up and yell with his mouth wide open?? Because he is yelling to increase his power? That doesn't make sense because if you operate under that premise then why did Sidious yell everytime Yoda blocked his saber? It was because he was frustrated and he knew that he couldn't defeat Yoda with his saber. Therefore, out of frustration: he yelled. Therefore, the idea that Sidious was yelling because he was trying to increase his power doesn't make any intuitive sense to me at all?? If you are yelling it is because you are experiencing something unpleasant. I have to agree that from what we see on film, it appears that Yoda is nearly thrown off the pod with Sids initial volley of lightning, however he composes himself and returns in upon Sids therefore causing him to back up and yell; because Yoda is gaining the upper hand in the Force duel....

 

ticopuma posted

]He doesnt stop the lightning you say? I highly suggest you watch that that scene again, in slow motion. In a way you are correct, by stopping the lightning, he caused the explosion. And I dont see your reasoning as to why Yoda wouldnt be able to absorb his lightning. It's not as much as how powerful (With Dooku it was one quick burst) but how much. Sidious kept throwing it at him, Yoda got pissed, pushed back the lightning, pain became to much to handle, Sidioud let go of the lightning, causing the explosion.

---

Okay I've watched the final moments of the duel in slow motion. I see Sidious stop the lightning only once. And it's only a second. I can't be as certain as you are that he stopped firing out of pain because there are earlier shots of Sidious' lighting stopping for a second or switching from one hand to the other.

And I do very clearly see tendrils of lightning still coming out of his fingers right up to the big bang. I even see some lightning coming out of the fingers of his right hand amidst the light of the blast as it's taking place.

One thing I can agree with you on is that Yoda is returning the lightning back to Sidious.

Maybe Yoda inadvertantly helped Sidius win the fight?

Now this is pure speculation on my part but maybe each time Yoda returned the lightning back to Sidious in those final moments Sidious was absorbing it all and the lightning he was firing back on Yoda kept on intensifying until the explosion.Thanks to Yoda.

One things for certain. Yoda had his breaking point too. He couldn't keep returning the lightning forever.

And you say you don't see my line of reasoning that Yoda couldn't absorb Sidious' lightning. Simple. The shot of Yoda wincing in pain as he blocks Sidious' lightning. I think if Yoda could've absorbed Sidious lightning we would've been shown that.He never does.

It sounds like you're saying now that Sidious' lightning is no more powerful than Dooku's. But didn't you write earlier this week that Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Dooku's?

 

OBIJAUN76 posted

One thing I can agree with you on is that Yoda is returning the lightning back to Sidious.

Yes, yes. Therefore causing Sids to yell due to the "pain" of the lightning being forced back upon him by Yoda. To me, the idea of Sids yelling and stepping back is indicative of the fact that his most powerful weapon: Force Lightning has been neutralized or at least countered by Yoda. If one simply examines the look on Yoda's face versus the one on Sids face, I believe that it is quite possible to maintain that Yoda had gained the upper-hand due to his look of determination; versus Sids look of astonishment and dispair.

---

Yes Obijaun76 I've always realized that and can appreciate your pov. I agree in that moment when Yoda gave that look and Sids had that look of surprise [which I actually find hilarious by the way] that he had the upper hand.

I just think that Yoda's moment of triumph is met with turbulence because Sidious [in my opinion] fights his way through the pain of having his lightning returned to him. I think Sidious is yelling because he is absorbing the lightning that Yoda deflects back. But he keeps on firing the lightning. So I've got to suspect that as Sidious absorbs the deflected lightning.And that the lightning he continues to fire out of his hands is intensifying. The area where Yoda is deflecting the lighting gets brighter and brighter because each blast is hotter than the last because the man just won't stop.

I don't mean to be annoying but it wouldn't it be boring if everyone here championed Yoda? Some of us have to take the other side.[face_devil] It makes it all more interesting.

I used to think was a draw. It wasn't until the people who worked on Yoda talked about the movie in SW INSIDER #86 and said things like "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy. Like a force he's never dealt with before." or "...Yoda has met his match." or "Getting Yoda down to a level where he's just defeated." Pointed out interesting details I'd not noticed before That I've since seen the duel in a whole new light.

 

Oh by no means is anything you've said annoying in fact I greatly respect you for giveing reason as to yoru opinions. Most people on the JC give no reason to the opinion. They are just "yea..well, Yoda still lost!" or "Nope, I dont care, Sidious lost". So by no means are you annoying.

True that I believed that Sidious lightning is stronger and ir prolly is, but what makes more of a diffrence is the amount thats being thrown at Yoda not so much the power of the lightning.

Yea, I see the tendrils of lightning still there but that it with all lightning. After the first shock os over there are still other smaller lightning tendrils all ofer the place. Such as a wave. After the first big wave other ones are still roaming around.

Yoda can't absorb the lightning because Sidious is determinded to win the fight. If Yoda were to absorb the lightning it would leave him open to attack. Which is why he is deflecting it.

 

I really don't see any evidence for a difference in lightning strength between Dooku and Palpatine. Luke and Yoda recovered just as quickly from Palpatine's lightning as Anakin did from Dooku's. Also the force fights between Dooku and Palpatine played out differently. Dooku was behaving arrogantly and showing off his power. He unleashed a short burst of lightning only to have it thrown back at him. He then lets out a second burst that is absorbed. He then realized that neither was hurting the other. Palpatine on the other was more realistic and knew he could not easily beat Yoda hence his initial reaction was to run from the fight. In the senate pod he is not showing off with a burst of lightning but releases a maintained blast, fighting for his life. Yoda catches it like he did with Dooku but Sidious kept up the blast keeping Yoda on the defense. Eventually the ball just got so big it couldn't be maintained and exploded. There's also little to suggest that Sidious was in any sort of pain or that Yoda was gaining the upper hand. All throughout that fight Palpatine was far more vocal with his grunts, snarls, screams, and again the fact he was going to run away. I don't think he was screaming because he was in pain as much as he knew he couldn't control the lightning ball and was scared. Heck, note that Yoda hardly makes a peep as he falls to the senate floor while Palpatine won't shut up as he's hanging from a senate pod. He was just a far more vocal character who knew that Yoda could potentially kill him and end everything he had worked for and it frightened him.

 

Ticopuma posted

Oh by no means is anything you've said annoying in fact I greatly respect you for giveing reason as to yoru opinions. Most people on the JC give no reason to the opinion. They are just "yea..well, Yoda still lost!" or "Nope, I dont care, Sidious lost". So by no means are you annoying.

True that I believed that Sidious lightning is stronger and ir prolly is, but what makes more of a diffrence is the amount thats being thrown at Yoda not so much the power of the lightning.

Yea, I see the tendrils of lightning still there but that it with all lightning. After the first shock os over there are still other smaller lightning tendrils all ofer the place. Such as a wave. After the first big wave other ones are still roaming around.

Yoda can't absorb the lightning because Sidious is determinded to win the fight. If Yoda were to absorb the lightning it would leave him open to attack. Which is why he is deflecting it.

---

Thanks Ticopuma. I'm just here throwing in my two cents like everyone else. Tossing ideas around revising theories. Even if opinions like mine are in the minority I feel compelled to state them.I'm not trying to change anyones mind who feels differently.Their opinions are just as good as mine.

Regardless of who people think won or lost the fight the Yoda vs Sidious duel is really exciting. The best part of the film. Will go down in cinema history as a classic. [As will the Darth Maul and Count Dooku clashes] I only wish it could've been a little longer it's so much fun.
Lucas should've at least filmed the scene described in the script where Sidious in a Senate pod, was searching for Yoda after his fall.

 

I have found the posts on this page fascinating and offering a different perspective on who won this duel. I would have to agree that it was a great duel no matter who won. I have an unrelated question. When Yoda confronts Sidious in his chamber, Sidious is wearing a brown robe. I noticed in the Senate chamber during the duel that he is wearing a black robe. I pinpointed the time it changes(from the HBO HD channel, it's like visual crack ) was when they enter the Senate chamber and Sidious starts throwing the pods. Is this a continuity error or is it symbolic because Sidious is truly showing his Dark Side now?

 

Well done for noticing that. I've noticed the same thing but failed to bring it up somehow. Surely Sidious never had the time to change his robes during the fight so I'm not sure what happened. Perhaps it was a mistake or something or in different lighting it appears different.
Then again what do I know

 

I thought about the lighting too but the fabric is different because the brown velvet top part of the robe doesn't exactly match the brown of the rest of the robe because it's a different fabric(I think the rest is probably some type of wool blend). I am famous(or infamous) for noticing errors like this and I also enjoy costuming.