**OFFICIAL THREAD** Yoda vs. Darth Sidious v3.0

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by rhonderoo, Nov 8, 2005.

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  1. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    An Order that has been all but wiped out and has been betrayed by the very galaxy it was supposed to protect - nonetheless.

    Yoda lost the moment the Senate received Order 66 "with thunderous applause" - the fact that he failed to physically kill Palpatine is almost secondary to the fact that the Republic has already shunned everything Yoda is and represents. Even if he killed Palpatine at this point - he'd probably have to run for his life and STILL live in exhile until the Republic got it's head on straight again.
  2. Sidious77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2006
    The duel was more a less a draw. It gives both fans of either character the excuse that they are equals. You always fancy Sidious winning as he has that extra advantage of being devious.
  3. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Well, since I would imagine that Yoda is a wise, caring individual, the fact that the people of the galaxy had been lied to would force him to act to try to save them against his their own will.

    These arguments get so tiresome.

    If you guys all want to believe that Yoda won despite the fact that it was clearly the director's intent that he lost the fight, then whatever. Help yourselves.
  4. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    The director's intent that he lost? Really? I surely must have missed something. To my understanding the director inteded it to be a draw. Everything they threw at eachother they blocked.
  5. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    Star Wars Insider Issue 86:

    "Notice how Yoda is pushed down and back into the left corner when he's feeling the weight and power of Sidious' lightsaber, we then had him fully extend to the upper right corner of the frame to show that he's managed to push Sidious away. The shot is only three seconds long, but it communicates to the audience that Yoda has met his match.

    Why argue that Sidious won? Why argue that Yoda won? Because neither of them didn't win. They were both the Grand Masters of their respective Orders, each with different styles and sources of power.

    Darth Sidious styles his lightsaber combat to adapt to his surroundings trying never to let the opponent gain the advantage. He uses deep stabs, swipes, and quick movements to catch his enemies off guard. Notice that each time we see Darth Sidious fight (granted its only twice) but each time its drastically different from the last.

    Yoda lets his own style of combat shape his manuevers. Flips, jumps, and lighting fast strikes are the main focus of his attacks. During his duel with Sidious he chooses start the duel with an overhead jump but then proceeds to stand on firm ground for a moment to counter Sidious' saber lock. However, once on the Chancellor's Podium, Yoda's entire focus is to strike at all of Sidious' flanks testing each for weakness.

    Throughout the duel Yoda and Sidious are constantly matching and countering each of their respective attacks. Each never gains the upper hand without the other countering in some form of counterattack. Until finally, Force-lightning, hurls each of the opponents off of the Senate Platform. Yoda realizes his chances of survival are slim and chooses to escape rather then face defeat. Darth Sidious manages to grab a nearby handlebar, although there is no bar when it shows his first backflip from the explosion of Force-lighting.

    There is no real winner that we can choose fairly. Darth Sidious fails to kill his most lethal opponent and Yoda fails to kill the Dark Lord of the Sith that overthrew that Republic and destroyed the Jedi Order. Neither is killed so there is no true winner. Yoda was never meant to die and neither was Darth Sidious. Each would die fufilling their destiny. Whether it be dying on a swamp planet or being the catalyst that fufills a millenia old prophecy. It was a draw. Neither of the combatants accomplished what they had set out to do.
  6. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7

    Yoda RAN AWAY. He ran away! There was too much at stake for him to run unless he knew he couldn't win.

    Palpatine might not have killed Yoda, but only because Yoda fled. Yoda ran before he was killed.

    That is not a draw, it is a retreat.


    Rebel: Let's be a bit more tolerant of others' opinions.
  7. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Yes he knew he couldn;t kill him because he was not the chosen one only Anakin can kill him. And a to retreat is not to lose.

  8. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    We still aren't clear as to whether or not yoda lost?

    Yoda's clear intention was to kill sidious. "Destroy the sith we must."

    de·stroy
    v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
    v. tr.

    To ruin completely
    To tear down or break up; demolish.
    To do away with; put an end to
    To kill.

    kill
    v. killed, kill·ing, kills
    v. tr.

    To put to death.
    To deprive of life

    Yoda failed to do what he set out to do. "Failed I have."

    fail
    v. failed, fail·ing, fails
    v. intr.

    To prove deficient or lacking; perform ineffectively or inadequately
    To be unsuccessful

    Yoda retreated.

    re·treat
    n.

    The act or process of withdrawing, especially from something hazardous, formidable, or unpleasant.
    A period of seclusion, retirement, or solitude.
    A period of group withdrawal for prayer, meditation, or study: a religious retreat.

    Withdrawal of a military force from a dangerous position or from an enemy attack.
    The signal for such withdrawal.

    v. re·treat·ed, re·treat·ing, re·treats
    v. intr.
    To fall or draw back; withdraw or retire.

    Yoda failed to do what he set out to do. Yoda lost. He most certainly did lose.

    lose
    v. lost, (lôst, lst) los·ing, los·es
    v. tr.
    To be unsuccessful in retaining possession of; mislay:
    To be deprived of (something one has had)
    To fail to win;fail in: lost the game; lost the court case.

    If you fail to do something, and you are unsuccessful in doing what you set out to do, you lose.

    This isn't meant to be disrespectful, but if we are to go by the very definitions of the words we are using, Yoda did lose. He failed in his objective, and failed to win. He lost. It wasn't a tie, or stalemate.

    stalemate

    n 1: a situation in which no progress can be made or no advancement is possible.

    No further progress was made on yoda's part. Sidious had further progress. He managed to grab on to a rail. Yoda did not.

    There is no shame in a loss, and a good arguement can be made for yoda, in saying that he wasn't bested through combat, or through the force. But he lost. Yoda's is still as powerful as sidious, hell it's all but proved that their force powers were equal, and that was a stalemate. The battle of force. But the overall battle was decided, and sidious won.
  9. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    So Darth Sidious wasn't trying to kill Yoda as well? Did Darth Sidious accomplish his goal of killing Yoda? No. He failed. So if your going to use the arguement that Yoda failed to kill Darth Sidious and lost the duel, the same position can be applied to Sidious not killing Master Yoda.

    Darth Sidious could have easily toppled to the Senate floor along with Yoda, but he didn't. Just because Darth Sidious managed to obtain the high ground by pure luck doesn't mean he won the duel. Neither combatant pursued the fight any further. Just because Yoda fled the duel and escaped with his life doesn't necesarily mean he lost. Darth Sidious attempted to escape with his own life even before the duel started.

    I honestly believe the battle between Yoda and Darth Sidious was a stalemate. None of the attacks performed by either of the duelists had any significant effect. They were both masters of their orders and of their powers. Each move countered perfectly or evaded perfectly. No winner. No fair winner.
  10. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    What did Sidious have to achieve from the fight? Survival.
    What did Yoda have to achieve? Kill the Sith.

    Sidious achieved his goal.
    Yoda failed.

    In the end, Sidious stayed on the podium. Yoda fell off.
    I don't see that as luck. I see that as Sidious' lightning causing this explosion and his arms being bigger!

    Yoda lost. There can be no doubt about that. But if you don't like that word - then use 'failed'. Even Yoda agrees with that - "failed I have".
  11. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    What did Darth Sidious have to achieve? Killing the Grand Master of the Jedi Order.
    What did Yoda have to achieve? Killing the Emperor and possibly restoring true peace to the galaxy.

    If Darth Sidious' goal was survival then why bother to continue fighting? Why not escape after he had Yoda on the ground from the first blast of Force-lightning? Sidious wanted Yoda dead. Yoda wanted Sidious dead. They both wanted to come out on top but neither of them did.

    It was pure luck that Sidious managed to grab a hold of the bar surrounding the Senate Pod. Yoda could have easily fallen right on the podium and landed in the Chancellor's seat. But he didn't. He landed on the side and slipped off, falling to the floor several hundred meters below.
  12. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    No he didnt. He hadn't planned on fighting Yoda and even after Yoda escaped he didnt do anything about it. In that situation all Sidious had to do was survive. He had already won. The galaxy was his.

    Yup.


    Arrogance. Self confidence. Notice that he did try and escape. But at first he thought he could deal with Yoda and fried him. But when Yoda fought back he thought "to hell with this". But then Yoda stopped him and he had to fight. But the act of looking to flee proves that he didnt have to fight or kill Yoda in order to achieve what he wanted.

    Sidious started the lightning which Yoda had to block which led to Yoda falling off the edge. In my experience there is no such thing as luck.

    Not really. He wasnt standing there. That would depend ona completely different scenario. Sidious used lightning which caused an explosion which knocked Yoda off the edge.

    Due to Sidious' attack. It didn't 'just happen'.
  13. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    I agree with you when you say Darth Sidious had no reason to fight Yoda after the declaration of the Galactic Empire. Everything he had set into motion had come to fruition. Darth Sidious has no reason to fight Yoda at all after he makes his appearence in the Holding Office, as evidence of his trying to escape.

    However, after realizing that his only other option is to fight, Sidious chooses to battle. Darth Sidious' priorities shifted after he chose to fight. Kill Yoda. I agree that there was no gain from Yoda's death in Sidious' eyes, other then personal glory. The Jedi Order was practically extinguished, the Empire was in operation and slowly gaining power, the Separatist Leaders and their government had been demolished, and the Chosen One was now securely under his control.

    If Yoda fled or died it didn't matter. That's not what were discussing. The true winner of the battle was who? Darth Sidious Dark Lord of the Sith or Grand Master Yoda of the Jedi Order? There was none. Neither of them gained an advantage in the battle. Right? Each move was countered with some form of counterattack. Each one was blasted backwards and seperated. That ended the duel.
  14. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Sidious did care very much what happened to Yoda. If it didn't matter whether he stayed alive or not, and his goal was not to kill him, then why tell the clone troopers "Double your search."

    He wanted the clone troopers to look EVEN HARDER for him...meaning that he wanted him dead.
  15. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    Yoda went after sidious to kill him. Sidious' main goal was to survive the attack yoda made. Sidious managed to to what he set out to accomplish. To fail to win, is to lose. What is so difficult for you people to understand. It's right there in plain english.
  16. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    Yoda's intent was to kill sidious. Sidious' intent was to survive. He did not go out of his way to fight yoda. In fact he ran. He tried to avoid fighting yoda. Sidious was trying to kill yoda but his intent/objective was to merely survive. There is no arguing this. It's right there, for you to see. By the very definition of the word, yoda lost. He failed to win.

    lose
    v. lost, (lôst, lst) los·ing, los·es
    v. tr.
    To be unsuccessful in retaining possession of; mislay:
    To be deprived of (something one has had
  17. cousinbasil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2005
    I don't think Sidious is afraid of fighting.

    Sidious does seem to try to run away after Yoda threw him across the room. Yoda blocks his way and forces him to fight. What really made Sidious turn and fight and give the cinema one of the greatest showdowns ever filmed? I think it's when Yoda says to Sidious that his faith in his new apprentice Lord Vader and Dark Side of the force may be a lie. "Misplaced" Yoda says.I'm convinced something snaps in Sidious. the way he doesn't say anything...that look of craziness in his eyes mixed with rage as he raises his lightsaber to the ceiling.... I have to admit I find that moment somewhat intimidating and scary. Sidious seems to be like 'WHAT?? YOU DARE SAY THAT TO ME????!! YOU WANT A FIGHT STUPID? YOU GOT IT!'

    During the course of the fight Sidious makes no further attempt to flee even though he probably could have and instead welcomes and embraces fighting Yoda with maniacal aplomb.Yoda's up against someone whose not only evil but really seems to be insane as well.

    And it was written in the script [that really should've been filmed ]that Sidious was searching in a Senate pod for Yoda after he fell after the explosion Sidious caused. That gives me the feeling that Sidious wanted to continue the fight and destroy Yoda. He didn't want the clone troopers to get Yoda. He wanted to get Yoda personally.
  18. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    If Darth Sidious is determined to survive, why fight a foe that can possibly destroy you? Why not call in legions of Clone Troopers into the Galactic Senate Hall? Why not take measures to safeguard the new Emperor? Why fight when you are given chances to escape?

    If it is merely survival, why not run out of the Convocation Chamber once he landed near the Senate Pods? Why not flee then? Because he was intent on destroying Yoda. Goals can change in the blink of an eye. Darth Sidious failed in his goal of killing Yoda. Yoda failed in his goal of killing Darth Sidious.

    I have watched this scene over and over, even being a believer that Darth Sidious emerged victorious. But I can't continue to say that anymore. After looking passed my biased opinions, I see that neither of the foes attempted what they set out to do. Whether it be Yoda and his constant goal of fighting to kill, or Darth Sidious and his goal to flee then fight to kill.

    Why is it hard to believe that is was a draw? You can't argue that is was merely survival that Sidious was attempting. There was pure evidence on screen to put that debate to rest. Many instances where he could have escaped but didn't...determined to kill Yoda.
  19. Darth_Vindaloo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2006
    It never struck me as insane, more as though Sidious was simply revelling in finally being able to openly tell the universe around him how he felt about it; the "I've been looking forward to this for long time, my little green friend" line pretty much tells you how he feels not just about Yoda, but about the whole game he's been playing at that point. Now he gets his payday, and his payback. He's spent decades with most of the time occupied - of necessity - by wearing the public persona of Mr. Nice Senator From Naboo...think how much he must have hated that at times, forced to be nice to the people he loathes...now the gloves are off and he can let it all out. Like Maul's "At last..." thing but writ much, much larger. The cackling laughter in the Rotunda is almost off the edge, but nobody genuinely insane could have spent as long as Sidious did successfully maintaining a facade of kindly-old-man. He's a master of self-control, but that doesn't stop him being able to savour the moment when that control, that facade, is no longer necessary.

    Precisely. Look at his face - he's loving it. Same as when Mace and the others come for him in his chambers; he makes the first move, and while fighting Mace - whatever your thoughts on the fight itself - he's grinning from ear to ear most of the time, having the time of his life. At last he gets to rip apart some of the Jedi he's hated and despised for so long. It's like Christmas for him; he even found somewhere that delivers :D.
  20. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    Yes sidious was trying to kill yoda. Was that his primary goal? No. He tries to flee from yoda. It's painfully obvious, that sidious' main objective, was to survive. Did yoda try to kill sidious? Yes. Was that his primary goal? Based on his own words, Yes. Did yoda fail in achieving his primary goal? Yes. Did he fail to win? Yes. Did he lose? Judging by the very definition of the word, Yes he did. Regardless of what sidious' secondary goal was, he still only had to survive in order to be victorious. Look at what they were fighting for. Sidious was fighting for his empire. Fighting for the right to continue to be in power. Yoda was fighting to take sidious out of the equation, effectively ending his term as the emperor. Do you dispute this? In order to retain his goals, what does sidious have to do? Survive. In order to achieve what he wants, whay does yoda have to do? Kill the emperor. Which combatant accomplished their goal? Sidious.

    win
    v. won, (wn) win·ning, wins
    v. intr.
    To achieve victory or finish first in a competition.
    To achieve success in an effort or venture.

    Was sidious successful in surviving? Yes. He succeeded in doing what he set out to do. He survived. Sure he was trying to kill yoda, after yoda left him with no other choice. Once the battle was on, there was no turning back. It doesn't change the fact that yoda failed to win. And lost. GL supports this, so why do you seem to have a hard time accepting this. You do realize that it doesn't mean that sidious was more powerful, or even a better combatant for that matter, sidious just had everything stacked in his favor. And got lucky. Let it go man. Nothing supports what you're claiming.
  21. Darth_Vindaloo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2006
    Sidious had won before he and Yoda crossed sabres at all; he already had the galaxy. That was the real battle. He won by successfully subverting the whole democratic process, hijacking the machinery of democracy itself, in order to take the galaxy for himself. Yoda's "failed, I have" refers - in my opinion - the not the fight he's just had with Sidious, but to the whole effort to thwart the Sith Lord the Jedi all knew about but could not find or stop.

  22. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine is a coward. Yes he is really powerful, but he is still a coward. He doesn't want to fight Yoda because he knows he could possibly be killed; he'd rather have his troops deal with him. However, when he's cornered and forced to fight, it turns out he is no push over. That video posted around page 40 cannot be used to argue that Yoda was winning the fight, as it only shows half of it. They were dead even. When the fight began Palpatine sent Yoda across the room only to have Yoda send Palpatine across the room as well. Palpatine loses his saber in the fight but also manages to knock Yoda's away too. When Palpatine shoots the lightning at Yoda, Palpatine initially has the upper hand! Yoda is grinding his teeth and turning away from the lightning while Palpatine has a big grin on his face!

    Moments later Yoda pushes Palpatine on the defense as the video shows, but the ball explodes under pressure. Throughout the fight for everytime one got the upper hand the other did as well. I would say they were dead even. Circumstance alone had Palpatine win the fight. When the lightning ball exploded Yoda was standing on the edge of the pod and was sent over the side while Palpatine was positioned in the middle and sent to the opposite side allowing him to grab on. Unlike Anakin however, Yoda knew he was beaten. Palpatine had the high ground and could easily resume throwing pods at Yoda while Yoda would have to jump ALL the way back up without a saber. He knew Sidious had a huge advantage and that his purpose would be better served not to die needlessly.


    Rebel: Hotlinking is teh bad.
  23. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    Why would Sidious not take obvious avenues of escape if his main goal was survival? You could argue the same reason for Yoda. Of course his primary goal was to eliminate Sidious. But couldn't you also argue that it was a goal for survival for him as well? So if we're going to run around in circles with this survival mess, Yoda won and so did Sidious because they both survived the assault.
  24. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    Not they both didn't win. They were fighting for two different things buddy. Sidious for his empire, and the right to continue it. Yoda to end it. Which one got what they wanted? Sidious. Thus, the winner. As someone said above you, circumstance was the sole reason behind the victory, that doesn't change the fact that sidious did win.

    If you were to start a fight with me on the street, and you proceed to run away, would you or would you not be the loser? Yes or no. You intitiated the conflict and you left. I win.
  25. LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2005
    star 4
    So let me ask this, what is Darth Sidious fighting for? The Galactic Empire, personal glory, or his own survival? Take into account when he believes he has the upper hand in the duel after a blast of Force-lightning, and after he is forced to fight after attempting to flee.
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